9-ball rules: Pushout vs. 1-Foul; the Luck Factor; Are new rules needed?

[Cuebacca]

Not wanting to hijack the other current discussion about Pushout rules, I decided to start a new thread.

If you could assign a percentage, how big of a factor do you think luck is in the current WPA 9-ball rules between two pros? 10% luck? 20% luck? What about the luck percentage in Pushout rules? 1%? 5%?

Next I ask, WHY were the rules changed from Pushout to Texas Express? To speed up the game? To equalize things to keep weaker players interested?

Is it worth trying to tweak the rules in an effort to combine the good things about the two rule sets? To me, being able to push out in the middle of a game seems like a very odd way to play pool, but I do understand that it reduces the luck. To love the idea of pushing in the middle of the game, perhaps "you just had to be there".

That said, could there be a better way to reduce the luck factor?

Here is one idea for an alternative rule set that I think would reduce the luck factor:

- Call pocket. If a ball is slopped in, the opponent can take the table, or give it back.

- Ball in hand on all fouls.

- To play safe, the player must call "safety" before the shot. If no ball is made, but the intent to play safety wasn't declared, the opponent has the option to give the table back.

- If a safety is called but a ball goes in, the opponent has the option to give the table back.

- Balls need not be called on the break shot. However, if the 9-ball is pocketed on the break, the breaker gets to choose between spotting the 9-ball and continuing his turn, or re-breaking.​

I would like to try these rules sometime if I can talk any of my friends into it. Do the rules sound good? Do you see any potential flaws? Would 9-ball be too boring without a luck factor? Is it pointless to think about rules so much?

 

[sjm]

Here is one idea for an alternative rule set that I think would reduce the luck factor:

- Call pocket. If a ball is slopped in, the opponent can take the table, or give it back.

- Ball in hand on all fouls.

- To play safe, the player must call "safety" before the shot. If no ball is made, but the intent to play safety wasn't declared, the opponent has the option to give the table back.

- If a safety is called but a ball goes in, the opponent has the option to give the table back.

​

Yes, also a nice way to reduce the skill factor. Two way shots are a staple of the very best players (in both nine ball and one-pocket), and represent some of the most interesting shots (in both nine ball and one pocket).

You are taking two way shots out of the game, thereby reducing the skill factor. There's much more to nineball than shotmaking, as the best strategists prove over and over.

Don't take any of the skill out of nine ball just to deal with the occasional slop and good/bad rolls. It's too big a price to pay.​

 

[unknownpro]

Not wanting to hijack the other current discussion about Pushout rules, I decided to start a new thread.

If you could assign a percentage, how big of a factor do you think luck is in the current WPA 9-ball rules between two pros? 10% luck? 20% luck? What about the luck percentage in Pushout rules? 1%? 5%?

Next I ask, WHY were the rules changed from Pushout to Texas Express? To speed up the game? To equalize things to keep weaker players interested?

Is it worth trying to tweak the rules in an effort to combine the good things about the two rule sets? To me, being able to push out in the middle of a game seems like a very odd way to play pool, but I do understand that it reduces the luck. To love the idea of pushing in the middle of the game, perhaps "you just had to be there".

That said, could there be a better way to reduce the luck factor?

Here is one idea for an alternative rule set that I think would reduce the luck factor:

- Call pocket. If a ball is slopped in, the opponent can take the table, or give it back.

- Ball in hand on all fouls.

- To play safe, the player must call "safety" before the shot. If no ball is made, but the intent to play safety wasn't declared, the opponent has the option to give the table back.

- If a safety is called but a ball goes in, the opponent has the option to give the table back.

- Balls need not be called on the break shot. However, if the 9-ball is pocketed on the break, the breaker gets to choose between spotting the 9-ball and continuing his turn, or re-breaking.​

I would like to try these rules sometime if I can talk any of my friends into it. Do the rules sound good? Do you see any potential flaws? Would 9-ball be too boring without a luck factor? Is it pointless to think about rules so much?

There are plenty of flaws which were found with the PCA tour. They used call shot and it sucks. It is not 9-ball. It takes away too many strategies in the game and does not reduce the luck factor. Just look up their rules and ask people that played their tournaments. The luck in 9-ball is mostly in position play, and call shot does nothing about that.

Roll out or 2-foul or whatever rules were changed because they sucked. One foul is far superior. Long races, tight tables and adding more balls make for a better game. Changing the rules does not. There's plenty of luck in straight pool and one pocket too.

unknownpro

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

My personal opinion; ball in hand rule 20% luck, push-out 15%. The push-out rule was done away with in the 80s because of the time factor. Promoters thought ball in hand would be more entertaining and go faster. Interestingly, a thread was posted recently that dealt with Harold Worst's skill at all games. He thought nine ball should be played shoot to hit, because, why should the shooter be able to just "push out" when he has hooked himself?

I, personally feel that Grady Mathews had something good in mind when he played all misses ball in hand, because of the sour rolls in nine ball. The only problem with ball in hand on every miss playing nine ball is the ease of running the table.

That's why I came up with the game of Rotation Continuous, to eliminate the odd rolls of nine ball, and have a whole rack of balls on the table to make it more of a challenge to run the table.

Rotation Continuous, 5% luck.

Danny

 

[Cuebacca]

Well, that was quick! Thanks, you two; good posts. I completely overlooked the two-way shot. That is a fatal flaw in my idea. I feel like I was just check-mated in two moves. LOL. Good to know it's been tested though.

I still like the rule about the 9-ball on the break though. In fact, I think it would be nice, if the 9-ball is pocketed early in the game (even after the break) if the 8-ball would become the money ball. Basically, for the last ball on the table to be the money ball.

This is probably more important for amateurs, where equipment conditions make good racks difficult, and races are short. What do you guys think?

 

[Cuebacca]

My personal opinion; ball in hand rule 20% luck, push-out 15%. The push-out rule was done away with in the 80s because of the time factor. Promoters thought ball in hand would be more entertaining and go faster. Interestingly, a thread was posted recently that dealt with Harold Worst's skill at all games. He thought nine ball should be played shoot to hit, because, why should the shooter be able to just "push out" when he has hooked himself?

I, personally feel that Grady Mathews had something good in mind when he played all misses ball in hand, because of the sour rolls in nine ball. The only problem with ball in hand on every miss playing nine ball is the ease of running the table.

That's why I came up with the game of Rotation Continuous, to eliminate the odd rolls of nine ball, and have a whole rack of balls on the table to make it more of a challenge to run the table.

Rotation Continuous, 5% luck.

Danny

Thanks, Danny. Is Rotation Continuous racked like 14.1, but shot in rotation?

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Rotation Continuous is racked like rotation with the one ball in front and it's up to the racker (who also breaks the balls) to place the rest of the 15balls where he wants them. Balls are shot in rotation.

Offensive break only, and the game is all offensive.

Cue ball in hand for breaker if he makes a ball and cbih for incoming player if he doesn't. Cbih after every miss or foul.

Every ball counts a point.

Play to a preset number of points, like 50 or 75. This is where the game is somewhat similar to 14.1, because the player makes points for every inning when he pockets a ball, instead of making 4 spectacular shots and then missing the nine.

Remember nine ball is a game of rotation as well. I believe the game of nine ball was created in order to deal with the rolls and difficulties of playing with all 15 balls. The ball in hand on every miss rule makes the game manageable.

Thanks for asking,

Danny

 

[Cuebacca]

Rotation Continuous is racked like rotation with the one ball in front and it's up to the racker (who also breaks the balls) to place the rest of the 15balls where he wants them. Balls are shot in rotation.

Offensive break only, and the game is all offensive.

Cue ball in hand for breaker if he makes a ball and cbih for incoming player if he doesn't. Cbih after every miss or foul.

Every ball counts a point.

Play to a preset number of points, like 50 or 75. This is where the game is somewhat similar to 14.1, because the player makes points for every inning when he pockets a ball, instead of making 4 spectacular shots and then missing the nine.

Remember nine ball is a game of rotation as well. I believe the game of nine ball was created in order to deal with the rolls and difficulties of playing with all 15 balls. The ball in hand on every miss rule makes the game manageable.

Thanks for asking,

Danny

Thanks! Sounds like a very challenging game. I'd love to watch a couple of pros play this.

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

I plan on having an added tournament in February, after football season. Danny K's is too busy now on weekends to host a full field. Maybe 20$ entry and 2000$ added.

I agree, I'd love to see Efren and some other great pros play the game. We play at Danny K's a few times a week and it's a hell of a lot of fun. When you lose, you know you didn't play well, or everyone else was just too good.

Danny

 

[Pushout]

Roll out or 2-foul or whatever rules were changed because they sucked. One foul is far superior. Long races, tight tables and adding more balls make for a better game. Changing the rules does not. There's plenty of luck in straight pool and one pocket too.

unknownpro

And you got that information, where?? Sounds like an opinion and not a very good one. You say changing the rules doesn't make for a better game, but that's what happened with today's 9 ball rules. Changed because of time constaints for tv matches, I was told, though that may not be entirely true. And, in my opinion, did not make the game better. Very,very little luck in Straight Pool or One Pocket. Mistakes, maybe, but not enough luck to make much of a difference.

 

[unknownpro]

And you got that information, where?? Sounds like an opinion and not a very good one. You say changing the rules doesn't make for a better game, but that's what happened with today's 9 ball rules. Changed because of time constaints for tv matches, I was told, though that may not be entirely true. And, in my opinion, did not make the game better. Very,very little luck in Straight Pool or One Pocket. Mistakes, maybe, but not enough luck to make much of a difference.

From playing. Two shot roll out sucked so much that most people wouldn't play it. In the south most people just played shoot to make a ball, no ball in hand. Now everybody plays one-foul ball in hand because it's a much better game, imo.

One lucky kiss in one-pocket throws games all the time. One lucky roll in straight pool and you may not get back to the table no matter the score.

unknownpro

 

[wincardona]

Luck????

When Was It Decided That There Is More Luck In One Foul Opposed To Push Out??i Personally Feel That There Isn't.

 

[sjm]

The biggest element of luck in one shot shootout nine ball is that if you hook yourself, you sure are lucky you don't have to shoot it. Hook yourself in one-foul nineball, and you must kick, jump or masse, a much stiffer penalty.

 

[Gerry]

Better players are affected far less by the inherent luck factor of the game. How many really lucky rolls are there in a race to 11 between 2 great players?..2 or 3 at most? theres that many lucky rolls in a few games with lesser players. I prefer roll out, but it would put a HUGE gap between good players that understand it, and average players.

Gerry

 

[ironman]

Yes, also a nice way to reduce the skill factor. Two way shots are a staple of the very best players (in both nine ball and one-pocket), and represent some of the most interesting shots (in both nine ball and one pocket).

You are taking two way shots out of the game, thereby reducing the skill factor. There's much more to nineball than shotmaking, as the best strategists prove over and over.

Don't take any of the skill out of nine ball just to deal with the occasional slop and good/bad rolls. It's too big a price to pay.

I have to agree with you that safety play and kicking has become a huge part of the game these days. Some are so good at it that it spooks me. What does bother me being the old guy I am is that so much risk or, the big shot has been removed and I still believe that those who pocket balls the best are the most exciting and better players.

What I wold like to see, brought up by Jam yesterday, was the ide of allwing a push. If the player is told to shoot again, and misses, then you recieve ball in hand.This IMO, would allow for good safety play, but take away from those cheesy hooks, and still put pressure on the pushing. It just weems this would allow for some of the old style strategy and bring back some of those big shots and excitment the game seems to be aching for.

I'm sure though, this cold go on forever nd ever.

 

[Snapshot9]

9 Ball

push out as you call it, I knew it as 2-shot out, was more mental or subjective, and the better player dominated more there than today's rules.

Why, because he had more knowledge, he knew what he could make or not, and probably what you could or not. Knowledge played a bigger factor back then than today. So, if you were a little green, or hadn't been playing that long but had gotten fairly good, your defeciencys showed up much more under 2-shot out when playing a better player.

The rules are fine for the game that it is. Make it more like staright pool, and you will have players and railbirds alike lose interest in it. It was meant to be and is a fast money or competition game, and is a good game for TV.

I suggest you try learning to play the game better by the current rules, rather than trying to change the game to suit you.

 

[ironman]

When Was It Decided That There Is More Luck In One Foul Opposed To Push Out??i Personally Feel That There Isn't.

Weren't you playing two shot when you won the 9-ball at either the Tropicana or the Stardust? Being a big fan of yours as you know, I can't help but think you would swim a river of s**** to play some of these guys 2 shot 9- ball!!

 

[JAM]

Weren't you playing two shot when you won the 9-ball at either the Tropicana or the Stardust? Being a big fan of yours as you know, I can't help but think you would swim a river of s**** to play some of these guys 2 shot 9- ball!!

I was surprised as well to learn that Billy likes the current rules better than the two-shot/roll-out rules. However, I guess as the saying goes, different strokes for different folks.

It is noteworthy, however, to listen to Billy's reasoning for his choice being that he's experienced both sets of rules.

Faster is better for TV, but for some players, faster or slower doesn't matter. In the end, it's the almighty win that's important, and it don't matter how pretty the win is either.

I found it interesting that at the U.S. Open this year, there were several players who scored in the mid .900 range and lost to their opponents who were in the mid .800 range according to the Accu-Stats ratings. What would cause that to happen, I wonder? Is it the balls on the break, less balls to run out, resulting in fewer mishaps? I don't get it.

JAM

 

[Pushout]

From playing. Two shot roll out sucked so much that most people wouldn't play it.
unknownpro

Where was this and when? Where I learned to play, one-foul-bih didn't get played all that much until the early '80s. That was in the North East. In 1978, I think it was Ray Martin, who told me "Any idiot can hide the cue ball."
I haven't given a lot of thought to the thread topic yet, but it's an interesting discussion.

 

[JAM]

...In 1978, I think it was Ray Martin, who told me "Any idiot can hide the cue ball."....

I like that quote!

JAM