# 9-Ball Rules Question

#### ChrisinNC

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A player has ball-in-hand. The 6 ball is sitting roughly one ball’s width off the side rail a foot from the corner pocket. The player is shooting at the 4 ball, which is also over near the same side rail. The player sets the cue ball down between the 6 ball and the cushion, obviously checking if there’s enough clearance to pocket the 4-ball past the 6 ball into that corner.

My understanding of the rules is if he had pulled another object ball out of a pocket to measure that distance, it would’ve clearly been a foul. However, since he had cue ball in hand he could claim that he was just considering a possible place to set the cue ball for the upcoming shot, so it is not a foul. Opinions?

#### Saturated Fats

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I saw SVB do it without a call. Like you said, it is obvious, but easy enough to claim otherwise.

#### MattPoland

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
(A) It’s a foul to measure with the cueball. (B) It’s not a foul to attempt to place a cueball in a narrow space.

There are scenarios where your intention could in theory be (A) or (B) and therefore you get some levity. That happened to Karl once in a Matchroom event where they called foul but reversed it after accepting his attention was (B).

Then there are scenarios that aren’t even close. Where obviously (B) is completely beyond reason or common sense and the player’s intention is obviously (A). You don’t get a free pass on this just because you’re holding a cueball. That’s a nitty interpretation of the rules and doesn’t fly.

#### ChrisinNC

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
(A) It’s a foul to measure with the cueball. (B) It’s not a foul to attempt to place a cueball in a narrow space.

There are scenarios where your intention could in theory be (A) or (B) and therefore you get some levity. That happened to Karl once in a Matchroom event where they called foul but reversed it after accepting his attention was (B).

Then there are scenarios that aren’t even close. Where obviously (B) is completely beyond reason or common sense and the player’s intention is obviously (A). You don’t get a free pass on this just because you’re holding a cueball. That’s a nitty interpretation of the rules and doesn’t fly.
Your explanation is dead on the money. This happened in a tournament late round match in which I was the TD and observing the match, but not offering any judgment unless I was asked to judge a shot beforehand.

Luckily for me, the opponent did not catch it and did not claim that the player had fouled. If he had, I would’ve had a tough call to make. I guess I would’ve considered whether placing the cue ball in that location right next to the 6 ball was a legitimate place to potentially play a shot or a safety from.

#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So they want to prevent fouling but pass the buck to prevent aiming?

#### Benward452

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is the rules on ball in hand from the WPA. See the highlighted below.

1.5 Cue Ball in Hand

When the cue ball is in hand, the shooter may place the cue ball anywhere on the playing
surface (see 8.1 Parts of the Table) and may continue to move the cue ball until he executes a
shot.
(See definition 8.2 Shot.) Players may use any part of the cue stick to move the cue ball,
including the tip, but not with a forward stroke motion. In some games and for most break
shots, placement of the cue ball may be restricted to the area behind the head string depending
on the rules of the game, and then 6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement and 6.11 Bad Play from
Behind the Head String may apply.

When the shooter has the cue ball in hand behind the head string and all the legal object balls
are behind the head string, he may request the legal object ball nearest the head string to be
spotted. If two or more balls are equal distance from the head string, the shooter may
designate which of the equidistant balls is to be spotted. An object ball that rests exactly on

#### hang-the-9

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A player has ball-in-hand. The 6 ball is sitting roughly one ball’s width off the side rail a foot from the corner pocket. The player is shooting at the 4 ball, which is also over near the same side rail. The player sets the cue ball down between the 6 ball and the cushion, obviously checking if there’s enough clearance to pocket the 4-ball past the 6 ball into that corner.

My understanding of the rules is if he had pulled another object ball out of a pocket to measure that distance, it would’ve clearly been a foul. However, since he had cue ball in hand he could claim that he was just considering a possible place to set the cue ball for the upcoming shot, so it is not a foul. Opinions?

Need a judgement call there, is the place he put the cueball to a possible position for the shot on the 4? If not, I would call that measuring with the ball.

#### MattPoland

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is the rules on ball in hand from the WPA. See the highlighted below.

1.5 Cue Ball in Hand

When the cue ball is in hand, the shooter may place the cue ball anywhere on the playing
surface (see 8.1 Parts of the Table) and may continue to move the cue ball until he executes a
shot.
(See definition 8.2 Shot.) Players may use any part of the cue stick to move the cue ball,
including the tip, but not with a forward stroke motion. In some games and for most break
shots, placement of the cue ball may be restricted to the area behind the head string depending
on the rules of the game, and then 6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement and 6.11 Bad Play from
Behind the Head String may apply.

When the shooter has the cue ball in hand behind the head string and all the legal object balls
are behind the head string, he may request the legal object ball nearest the head string to be
spotted. If two or more balls are equal distance from the head string, the shooter may
designate which of the equidistant balls is to be spotted. An object ball that rests exactly on

It’s another scenario where CSI has done a much better job being explicit and descriptive in their rules. It’s like WPA refs are trained to the same standard as CSI even when the applicability of WSR takes a stretch of interpretation to get to the same ruling.

#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Look like a pro, shoot like a dog.

#### vjmehra

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

This actually came up in the 2015 Mosconi Cup!

#### ShootingArts

##### Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Some rule changes a few years back allow releasing of the stick with it laying on the table and measuring with whatever you have on hand, a ball not in play, chalk, a stick, your hand, all legal. I forget who made that rule change and being a recreational player or gambler I just don't care. Measuring with anything but your eyeball is a foul playing me, your eyeball too if you have a glass eye!

Hu

#### measureman

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some rule changes a few years back allow releasing of the stick with it laying on the table and measuring with whatever you have on hand, a ball not in play, chalk, a stick, your hand, all legal. I forget who made that rule change and being a recreational player or gambler I just don't care. Measuring with anything but your eyeball is a foul playing me, your eyeball too if you have a glass eye!

Hu
What if you are a Borg and can measure down to an Atomic level with your implants?

#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is telekinesis a foul?

#### MattPoland

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some rule changes a few years back allow releasing of the stick with it laying on the table and measuring with whatever you have on hand, a ball not in play, chalk, a stick, your hand, all legal. I forget who made that rule change and being a recreational player or gambler I just don't care. Measuring with anything but your eyeball is a foul playing me, your eyeball too if you have a glass eye!

Hu
I’m a little lost on what ruleset you’re referring to. In CSI you don’t need to have your hand on the stick to measure an angle but in WPA you do.

In CSI you can’t measure a gap or which ball will be contacted first with anything but your eyes (no other part of your body). WPA doesn’t allow using any equipment but I’m not clear how their refs are trained regarding body parts.

#### ShootingArts

##### Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
I’m a little lost on what ruleset you’re referring to. In CSI you don’t need to have your hand on the stick to measure an angle but in WPA you do.

In CSI you can’t measure a gap or which ball will be contacted first with anything but your eyes (no other part of your body). WPA doesn’t allow using any equipment but I’m not clear how their refs are trained regarding body parts.

Matt,

I just don't remember. It was a fair sized governing body that previously had rules prohibiting things like measuring with a ball or your stick. I read almost anything in idle time. I remember thinking that was a pretty major reversal for no good reason but it might have affected league or big time tournaments, nothing that would affect me. I read all the rule sets I could find maybe a year ago so naturally they all blurred together.

I play by the local rules wherever I am at regardless of rule books anyway. "When in Rome". Not asking the rules has gotten me into games like last hole and bank the eight. That was the only way to play that they considered to exist and they automatically assumed that was the rules we would play by. I was playing a young man when he knocked an object ball off the table. He retrieved it and slung it on the table as hard as he could! "Around and around she goes, where she stops nobody knows!" Ooooo-tay, this is a bit different. No cash involved so I didn't say anything then or when it occurred several more times.

Sorry for not being able to be of more help. Some rules posted on the internet, I don't buy rulebooks to ignore.

Hu

#### ChrisinNC

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is the rules on ball in hand from the WPA. See the highlighted below.

1.5 Cue Ball in Hand

When the cue ball is in hand, the shooter may place the cue ball anywhere on the playing
surface (see 8.1 Parts of the Table) and may continue to move the cue ball until he executes a
shot.
(See definition 8.2 Shot.) Players may use any part of the cue stick to move the cue ball,
including the tip, but not with a forward stroke motion. In some games and for most break
shots, placement of the cue ball may be restricted to the area behind the head string depending
on the rules of the game, and then 6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement and 6.11 Bad Play from
Behind the Head String may apply.

When the shooter has the cue ball in hand behind the head string and all the legal object balls
are behind the head string, he may request the legal object ball nearest the head string to be
spotted. If two or more balls are equal distance from the head string, the shooter may
designate which of the equidistant balls is to be spotted. An object ball that rests exactly on
That rule addresses nothing about using a cue ball for measurement purposes, which I don’t believe is allowed.

#### vapoolplayer

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That rule addresses nothing about using a cue ball for measurement purposes, which I don’t believe is allowed.

I’ll have to go back and crawl through WPA.

BCA has a separate section labeled “devices” which states you can’t use the cue ball to measure.

I haven’t been able to find that or a similar section in WPA.

I guess it would technically depend which rules you’re playing by. But generally speaking, BCA is usually standard. Or well, it was. Things may have changed as I’m just getting back into things.

#### vapoolplayer

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’m a little lost on what ruleset you’re referring to. In CSI you don’t need to have your hand on the stick to measure an angle but in WPA you do.

In CSI you can’t measure a gap or which ball will be contacted first with anything but your eyes (no other part of your body). WPA doesn’t allow using any equipment but I’m not clear how their refs are trained regarding body parts.

Which section in WPA discusses measuring. I can’t find it and I’m likely missing it.

Trying to familiarize myself with all the different .org rules again.

#### vapoolplayer

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I did find where it said “equipment is to be used as it was designed for.”

I’d imagine that would be interpreted that the cue ball was not designed to measure.

#### MattPoland

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Which section in WPA discusses measuring. I can’t find it and I’m likely missing it.

Trying to familiarize myself with all the different .org rules again.

I did find where it said “equipment is to be used as it was designed for.”

I’d imagine that would be interpreted that the cue ball was not designed to measure.

That is the section. It also describes normal uses for various equipment to imply that there’s not much outside of those use cases the equipment may be used for.

That information is also supplemented by things like how the fouls section says it is a foul to take your hand off the cue when laying it on the table to align a shot. That implies to you can use it to help with angles. It’s an area where CSI just does a much better job being explicit.

Also at times the Equipment Specifications page can give insight to “the intended use of equipment”. For example the mechanical bridge section states the bridge is intended to “replace the bridge hand” which implies it is not intended to “support the bridge hand” as you see some players try to get away with.