9 ball ruling or just plain integrity question

[rrick33]

It was documented that unsportsmanlike conduct included:

(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;



If he stepped up and struck/shot/cued the 9 ball, then he took a shot.
It could easily be argued that unsportsmanlike conduct does not apply unless you can convince a ref that his intent was sufficient penalty.

This would be no differnent than if a player mistakenly cued and shot the one ball instead of the cue ball. They don't forfiet the game ...do they?

It is a foul and since the 9 is in play til the end it is placed on the spot...not where it was previously situated.

Is there a specific rule regarding unsportsmanlike conduct that would support any other position?

 

[Banks]

It was documented that unsportsmanlike conduct included:

(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;



If he stepped up and struck/shot/cued the 9 ball, then he took a shot.
It could easily be argued that unsportsmanlike conduct does not apply unless you can convince a ref that his intent was sufficient penalty.

This would be no differnent than if a player mistakenly cued and shot the one ball instead of the cue ball. They don't forfiet the game ...do they?

It is a foul and since the 9 is in play til the end it is placed on the spot...not where it was previously situated.

Is there a specific rule regarding unsportsmanlike conduct that would support any other position?

9 goes right in the jaws and I'm taking BiH.. or I'll just take the free win. I'll be nice enough to let my opponent choose.

Remember, if you're going to quote rules, know the definitions first..

Definitions

8.2 Shot
A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot.

 

[rrick33]

9 goes right in the jaws and I'm taking BiH.. or I'll just take the free win. I'll be nice enough to let my opponent choose.

Remember, if you're going to quote rules, know the definitions first..
Definitions

8.2 Shot
A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot.

First of all, I'm quoting someone else. Are you stating that they misquoted the rules????

I don't have a rule book to reference.

Secondly, if a shot is technically defined as striking the cue ball first and therefore no other contact with the cue tip upon another ball constitutes a "shot"....then you would be correct, If the coppied quote I used was also correct......which I think you have suggested is incorrect.

I'm not so sure the rule goes into that much detail.

According to the rule you quoted, if he cues up and strikes the 9 ball, he has not technically taken a shot. he has simply moved a ball on the table. If you move a ball prior to your "shot" what's the rule there??? Other than the ubiquitous "unsportsmanlike" conduct where everybody throws their complaint when they can't find a relative ruling.

personally, I do think it is a foul but the interpretation of how it should be handled is in question.

Since you seem to be the authority, perhaps you can find the rule regarding what happens when a player cues up and strikes the wrong ball.
I'm sure a rule must exist.... I remember this happening in an APA match.....and if it does exist then it would hold precident over this situation.

Anyone have a rule book....I'd be curious as to what it says.

 

[easy-e]

First of all, I'm quoting someone else. Are you stating that they misquoted the rules????

I don't have a rule book to reference.

Secondly, if a shot is technically defined as striking the cue ball first and therefore no other contact with the cue tip upon another ball constitutes a "shot"....then you would be correct, If the coppied quote I used was also correct......which I think you have suggested is incorrect.

I'm not so sure the rule goes into that much detail.

Since you seem to be the authority, perhaps you can find the rule regarding what happens when a player cues up and strikes the wrong ball.
I'm sure a rule must exist.... I remeber this happening in an APA match.....and if it does exist then it would hold precident over this situation.

Anyone have a rule book....I'd be curious as to what it says.

You mean someone using the 9-ball as the cue ball? That's interesting, I also wonder what the ruling would be. I'd just lol and take ball in hand.

 

[rrick33]

According to APA rules, cueing the wrong ball is not listed as a foul. The closet ruling is cited below.


g. -- Causing movement of the cue ball, even accidentally, is a foul. It is not a foul to accidentally move any other balls (including the 8-ball) unless, while shooting, a player moves a ball and in turn strikes the cue ball. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball is a foul. Any balls moved accidentally during a shot will be replaced by the opponent after the shot is over and all the balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot, it will be replaced before the shot is taken.


APA does not reference intentionally moving a ball as a foul unless it's cited under unsportsmanlike conduct. However, if you try to take BIH, he could claim it was an accident and then the rule is clear. The rule states that accidently moving a ball is definitely not a foul.

According to APA ...once your opponent shoots the 9 ball, you can place it back on the table and provide them another opportunity to take a legal shot using the cue ball.

Since it is not listed as a foul and because they have not technically taken a shot yet, you may find yourself in a bind if you attempt to take BIH under APA rules.

Your only recourse is to find and unsprtsmanlike application that your opponent can't or chooses not to refute.

Unless of course your opponent doesn't mind that you get BIH now that he has removed the 9 ball from it's precarious position.

Not sure about BCA or any other 9 ball rule books.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

According to APA rules, cueing the wrong ball is not listed as a foul. The closet ruling is cited below.


g. -- Causing movement of the cue ball, even accidentally, is a foul. It is not a foul to accidentally move any other balls (including the 8-ball) unless, while shooting, a player moves a ball and in turn strikes the cue ball. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball is a foul. Any balls moved accidentally during a shot will be replaced by the opponent after the shot is over and all the balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot, it will be replaced before the shot is taken.


APA does not reference intentionally moving a ball as a foul unless it's cited under unsportsmanlike conduct. However, if you try to take BIH, he could claim it was an accident and then the rule is clear. The rule states that accidently moving a ball is definitely not a foul.

According to APA ...once your opponent shoots the 9 ball, you can place it back on the table and provide them another opportunity to take a legal shot using the cue ball.

Since it is not listed as a foul and because they have not technically taken a shot yet, you may find yourself in a bind if you attempt to take BIH under APA rules.

Your only recourse is to find and unsprtsmanlike application that your opponent can't or chooses not to refute.

Unless of course your opponent doesn't mind that you get BIH now that he has removed the 9 ball from it's precarious position.

Not sure about BCA or any other 9 ball rule books.

The APA rulebook is a piece of garbage.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I think in most circles that would be considered a concession.

 

[Neil]

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

 

[pooler]

very simple !!!

So he just takes his cue and pokes the 9 in the pocket. Is this just a foul or should that have been a loss of that game? ... but I thought that was pretty bush league.

In order not to get into purely an academic discussion over this I will only say that such situation is clearly against a very basic priciple of any kind of Cue Sports conduct, i.e. the cue tip is supposed to contact a certain ball (cue ball) for it to strike another ball (object ball) etc.

As to the black and white writing (Rules) on this:

WPA Standarized Rules

FOULS SECTION 6.6 Touched Ball

It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots.
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot.
The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls.
If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

The standard ruling on this (in any kind of competition I can think of, starting from any local tournament level - not to mention anything more serious):

The first occurence of such is an immediate loss of a currently played game
and
an immediate warning on grounds of unsportsmanlike conduct for the immediate loss of a (any) match should the second violation of this type be excercised within the duration of the currently played competition (tournament, series of tournaments, etc.).

Additionally I may quote (also WPA Standarized...):

Section 1 - General Rules; Point 1.3 Player’s Use of Equipment

... The equipment must be used only for the purpose or in the manner that the equipment was intended. (See 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.)...


As simple as that.

Regards

 

[TheNewSharkster]

This example has to be a loss of game. If not where do you draw the line?

If it were me I would rake the balls after he pulled that move and explain that if he wanted to pot the 9ball with a foul he would have needed to do it with the cue ball. My guess is this guys is a low level player who thought he would abuse the rules.

 

[maha]

when your gambling you dont read rulebooks to your opponent, he just quits. so here just put the nine back where it was and tell him that was a not go.

 

[Black-Balled]

it was documented that unsportsmanlike conduct included:

(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;



if he stepped up and struck/shot/cued the 9 ball, then he took a shot.
it could easily be argued that unsportsmanlike conduct does not apply unless you can convince a ref that his intent was sufficient penalty.

This would be no differnent than if a player mistakenly cued and shot the one ball instead of the cue ball. They don't forfiet the game ...do they?

It is a foul and since the 9 is in play til the end it is placed on the spot...not where it was previously situated.

Is there a specific rule regarding unsportsmanlike conduct that would support any other position?

wrong!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Banks]

wrong!!!!!!!!!!

Fashionably late, of course! :thumbup:

 

[rrick33]

posted by Blackballed:

wrong!!!!!!!!!!

I love it when a player has the ability to defend their position.

You really convinced me. With such substance in your argument how could anyone disagree?

 

[Banks]

posted by Blackballed:




I love it when a player has the ability to defend their position.

You really convinced me. With such sustance in your argument how could anyone disagree?

Coming from the guy that got all huffy about a response to "quoting" something without an actual quote/quote-function?

You've already been proven wrong.. I know, I know.. "it wasn't you" I responded to..

Let it go, you didn't get it "right".

 

[rrick33]

banks stated:

Coming from the guy that got all huffy about a response to "quoting" something without an actual quote/quote-function?

You've already been proven wrong.. I know, I know.. "it wasn't you" I responded to..

Let it go, you didn't get it "right".

Odd that this comment should come from you since you didn't have the gonads to admitt your statement was ill concieved. Or even to respond when I asked you to cite a rule to contradict the rule I posted. You really know how to rise to a challenge, don't you?? And now you complain about my previous response when you lacked the courage to throw your 2 cents into the debate.

Give me a break!

Someone else had to take the reigns while you were recovering from my "Huff". (This is where I would normally include a picture of some pansies)

I've seen one WPA ruling that makes sense in this forum, but it doesn't prove the APA ruling was wrong. It's a different rule book...but I guess that didn't dawn on you either.

It seems that, for you,, if someone says it's wrong....then that's evidence enough. Brilliant!!!!

 

[Brickedout]

Playing a guy cheap sets the other day, race to 4 for 20. After the guy breaks and comes up dry, I shoot a leave. The one is lined up for a dead combo and the 9 and he can't hit either one. So he just takes his cue and pokes the 9 in the pocket. Is this just a foul or should that have been a loss of that game? I didn't say anything just gave him a look, we play on a regular basis, but I thought that was pretty bush league.

Its very bush league. May I ask why you didnt say something to him about it? Or at least after the game was over. I mean its one thing if he used the cue, and shot it in and took the foul, but thats clearly beyond the normal foul. I believe in any kind of league play that would be lose of game the first time, and match the second.

 

[TomHay]

I would have told him he had two options, loss of game or loss of life, pick one. I aint very sane though.

 

[smoooothstroke]

He forfieted the game IMO.If he is a beginer and didn't know better I might cut him some slack and respot the 9 where it was,taking BIH.