Pushout said:
Then we must agree to disagree.
9-ball, the push-out, Luck...
- Thread starter Mr. J
- Start date
Then we must agree to disagree.
Mr. J said:
I myself used to think this way too. Later on I found out something very different from playing top pros: the luck factor works on a different level.
Pro player will break at least 1 or 2 balls in on the break, and run the table out in a very efficient manner. Sure they do get lucky sometimes but not very often. When they do we start to think they are just like us who "get lucky" all the time. Believe me, they don't "F--- Around" except under some free spirits.
I would "be lucky" if they leave me a chance to shoot a 80 degrees cut shot... and I have to make it.
In another word, it is a skill to control the luck factor in your game. I turned myself to one pocket years earlier partly due to my half-understanding of this luck issues. 9 ball is a game where you can really build up strokes with consistency. and...
consistency depends less on luck
BazookaJoe said:
I'm sorry if I came off as sarcastic. I'm too emotional for my own good some times. I've taught some of my son's friends to play push out who had never played it. They were amazed at how much different the game became. Seriously, you should give it a shot. I began to question one foul bih when I got stuck so often from the other guy missing the pocket by a diamond and sticking me where I had no choice but to kick. I paid a penalty for his mistake. I know that safety play has developed over the years, but I still hate the game as played that way. Try it both ways and see how you like it. I admit that it does make a longer game, though.
Pushout said:
I have, and it makes me cringe to see someone poke a ball a couple of inches because they're hooked. I love to figure out and execute a good safe. I also love to figure out and execute a good escape. If it were all just shooting at the pocket, I wouldn't like pool nearly as much.
BazookaJoe said:
What do you do when someone pushes out? What's your thinking process? I'm really surprised that someone who's played both ways would prefer one foul ball in hand. It makes me cringe when somebody misses, goes three or four rails, and stitches me where I can do nothing but punt. Understand, I was told years ago by a good player that I kicked as well as most anybody he played against. But, I still hate it.
cincyman
Banned
Thank you that is what i was kind of saying but bangers dont understand the differnece in the games, they think if you play one pocket there is no luck. But in reality how about when you play staright pool and bump a ball on the wrong side you were trying to hit well guess what that is LUCK. world class 9 ball is not lucky at all that is why that is the majority of tournaments played its not that hard to understand.cuetable said:
gotta agree with cuetable here the voice of reason for this thread. the better the game is played, the less luck there is. so assuming you have two world class players playing, the one remaining factor is length of match. i say race to ten minimum, ideally fifteen. that for me is the key factor. coming from england with snooker on tv all the time, it bugs me that when our top players in our sport match up we make it a race to five, or seven.
Pushout said:
My thoughts would certainly would depend on the position of the pushed CB, the OB, and the next two.
The miss / 3 rail scenario doesn't happen all that often and when it does, it can be an opportunity to outhink the other player.
I agree, sometimes the kick is really tough, sometimes near impossible, but hey "the balls roll funny for everybody, kiddo"
Mr. J said:
Texas Express, Pro Express or World Standardized (what ever the hell you call it) 9-ball is pretty easy. Weak players can win vs. Stong players at this if they have a big break and pocket balls well. No strategy or a more complete understanding of the game is necessary. Ya gotta play long races to really determine who the better player is (races to 21+ IMO).
Though I have never myself played this way. Two-shot shoot-out 9-ball (2-foul) seems to be a much more skill oriented game (as I understand it).
We should try that game again. I'd love to try something new.
Last edited:
I will suggest a format that many of you will not be able to wrap your minds around, but if you try it, you may like it. Try this:
1) mandatory push-out after the break
2) you never have to accept the table after your opponent misses
It is still BIH. This takes the luck out of the break shot and your opponent's misses. It also forces you to shoot a really hard shot when you get out of line, because there is essentially no safety play (your opponent would just pass on the shot). In today's 9 ball, people never shoot a hard shot because they can just play safety when they get out of line. That's not punitive. In my format, you are in charge of your destiny and can't accuse your opponent of getting lucky. And you get to see some amazing shotmaking.
1) mandatory push-out after the break
2) you never have to accept the table after your opponent misses
It is still BIH. This takes the luck out of the break shot and your opponent's misses. It also forces you to shoot a really hard shot when you get out of line, because there is essentially no safety play (your opponent would just pass on the shot). In today's 9 ball, people never shoot a hard shot because they can just play safety when they get out of line. That's not punitive. In my format, you are in charge of your destiny and can't accuse your opponent of getting lucky. And you get to see some amazing shotmaking.
Rarelymisses said:
That is interesting and sounds fun to try. I'm not sure if I'd like the mandatory pushout after the break though. I also enjoy safety play, so I don't think I'd want to eliminate safeties from the game. Your post made me think though... What about these rules?...
- Call pocket.
- One foul = ball in hand.
- If a ball is slopped in, the opponent can take the table, or give it back.
- If a shot is missed, the opponent can take the table or give it back.
- However, if a safety is declared before the shot, the incoming player cannot give the table back, unless a ball is pocketed on the declared safety.
I have never tried pushout 9-ball, but I don't think I would like it as much 1-foul rules. I am curious to try it sometime though. Around what year were the the rules changed? Does anyone have a recommendation for a good Accu-Stats match from when 9-ball was played with pushout/2-foul rules?
Cuebacca said:
Just on addition please
- If you miss ball in hand you must do the chicken dance.
Cuebacca said:LOL. I'm not sure if that means you think my rules suck, but either way, that was funny. Fair enough; let's go ahead and make that addition in the Cuebacca 9-ball rules.
Just funnin'
Thanks to everyone...
This thread has really turned out great....thanks to all of you for all your input and analysis...
Who knows...we might someday have to play a new game called "NEW NINE-BALL"....
I really like the comment someone made about how they would lose interest in 9-ball if all they did was shoot balls in the pockets...however , if you really think about it, isn't that manily the only thing happening when the World Champs are running racks??? Yikes....now I'm really confused....
Keep them NEW NINE-BALL rules coming.....
Mr. J.
This thread has really turned out great....thanks to all of you for all your input and analysis...
Who knows...we might someday have to play a new game called "NEW NINE-BALL"....
I really like the comment someone made about how they would lose interest in 9-ball if all they did was shoot balls in the pockets...however , if you really think about it, isn't that manily the only thing happening when the World Champs are running racks??? Yikes....now I'm really confused....
Keep them NEW NINE-BALL rules coming.....
Mr. J.
If you want to take most all the luck out of nine ball how about doing it this way. Rack the diamond as usual, but add the extra balls around the outside edges of the diamond. Play call ball and pocket on every shot, play you don't have to go in order, and ... ummm, lets call it 14.1 also.
J/K of course. IMO 9 ball is a great gambling game and is pretty much boring if played for fun. I think that the current rules are as good as any for gambling and the game should be viewed as such. I'm not much of a 9 ball lover but I can respect it from that perspective.
I also feel it should be played by the game rather than by the set. For example. Say you play 5 races to 7. You loose 3 of them 7 to 6 and win 2 of them 7 to 0. That means your opponent has won a total games of 21 and you won a total games of 26. You win more games but because of the order you won them in, you have to end up a looser for the match.
J/K of course. IMO 9 ball is a great gambling game and is pretty much boring if played for fun. I think that the current rules are as good as any for gambling and the game should be viewed as such. I'm not much of a 9 ball lover but I can respect it from that perspective.
I also feel it should be played by the game rather than by the set. For example. Say you play 5 races to 7. You loose 3 of them 7 to 6 and win 2 of them 7 to 0. That means your opponent has won a total games of 21 and you won a total games of 26. You win more games but because of the order you won them in, you have to end up a looser for the match.
Last edited:
I have rules I like to play when gambling, though no one ever goes for it.
>pushout with option after the break as usual....9 ball spots if made on break.
>call safety...if the player calls a safety, then you play where the balls stop, if he makes one during the safe it stays down(because good one pocket players will kill you making the ball and leave you a 1/4" from it hooked when it spots )...except the obvious 9ball.
>miss option...a player misses and leaves you hooked, you can opt back to the misser <<< love this rule!
>roll out option.....you can call roll out (instead of safety) roll the ball wherever you want, and the incoming player has the option.
These are fun hardcore rules that take MOST luck out but make the game better IMO by adding some tactical aspects...
Gerry
>pushout with option after the break as usual....9 ball spots if made on break.
>call safety...if the player calls a safety, then you play where the balls stop, if he makes one during the safe it stays down(because good one pocket players will kill you making the ball and leave you a 1/4" from it hooked when it spots
)...except the obvious 9ball.>miss option...a player misses and leaves you hooked, you can opt back to the misser
<<< love this rule!>roll out option.....you can call roll out (instead of safety) roll the ball wherever you want, and the incoming player has the option.
These are fun hardcore rules that take MOST luck out but make the game better IMO by adding some tactical aspects...
Gerry