9 ball three foul question

bigskyjake

bigskyjake

you heard the man
Silver Member
Ok here's the scenario Pro Express Rules

I've got my opponent on two fouls, taking my ball in hand I pocket a ball. On my next shot in rotation I snooker my opponent, he fouls again. do I win or is was the opponents fouls negated because i pocketed a ball in between hooking him
 
it doesn't matter if you make balls before playing another safe. he loses the game as long as you told the incoming player he was on two... if you don't let him know he's on two fouls the third won't count.
 
3 Fouls is short for '3 consecutive fouls by the same player'. While the fouls must occur in the same game, what you do on your shot does not change your opponent's count.
 
it doesnt matter how many balls you pocket it doesnt eliminate the 3 foul rule but in most cases you are required to let ur opponent know after his second foul that he is on 2 fouls. dont know if thats the official rule buts been a rule everywhere i have played. hope this helps ya.
 
bigskyjake said:
... I've got my opponent on two fouls, taking my ball in hand I pocket a ball. On my next shot in rotation I snooker my opponent, he fouls again. do I win or is was the opponents fouls negated because i pocketed a ball in between hooking him
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I've seen a tournament director say that my pocketing a ball takes my opponent off of fouls. Of course that's total baloney, as others have pointed out, but sometimes ignorant and/or crooked TDs make up rules on the spot to suit the situation. Here's the real rule:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls#6.14

Note that while the rule says to warn the player as he comes to the table that he is on two, it is prudent to point out the two fouls as soon as he makes the second so an argument later is less likely.
 
bigskyjake said:
thanks guys you just won me 10.00
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Cool. Split ten ways that's $1 each. (Oh, yes your opponent is still on 2 fouls after you pocket a ball--make sure you let him know he's on 2 though). :D
 
Bob Jewett said:
I've seen a tournament director say that my pocketing a ball takes my opponent off of fouls. Of course that's total baloney, as others have pointed out, but sometimes ignorant and/or crooked TDs make up rules on the spot to suit the situation. Here's the real rule:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls#6.14

Note that while the rule says to warn the player as he comes to the table that he is on two, it is prudent to point out the two fouls as soon as he makes the second so an argument later is less likely.
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Bob, since you are so instrumental in writing rules, let me just say that I think the "on two" rule is unfortunate in and of itself.

It may be the gentlemanly thing to do like advising an opponent that he is about the play the wrong ball but in matches for serious money or major tournaments, such courtesies...like when calling the 9 Ball is required, are rarely extended.

A player should be responsible for shooting the correct ball...calling the 9 when required and remembering that he/she has two consecutive fouls IMHO.

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
... A player should be responsible for ... remembering that he/she has two consecutive fouls. ...
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Here is a related section of the Regulations:

When a game has a three-foul rule, the referee should note to the players any second foul at the time that it occurs and also when the player who is on two fouls returns to the table. The first warning is not required by the rules but is meant to prevent later misunderstandings. If there is a scoreboard on which the foul count is visible to the players, it satisfies the warning requirement.
​

As for your point about remembering which ball to play, the referee must remain silent if a foul is about to occur. Also, the nine ball is never called except in certain idiotic rule sets that are outside the scope of polite, informed discussion.
 
av84fun said:
Bob, since you are so instrumental in writing rules, let me just say that I think the "on two" rule is unfortunate in and of itself.

It may be the gentlemanly thing to do like advising an opponent that he is about the play the wrong ball but in matches for serious money or major tournaments, such courtesies...like when calling the 9 Ball is required, are rarely extended.

A player should be responsible for shooting the correct ball...calling the 9 when required and remembering that he/she has two consecutive fouls IMHO.

Regards,
Jim
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I see your point, but the problem is when he shoots the wrong ball, you can immediately point out the correct ball he should have shot, and there is no room for an argument or difference of recollection. The on two announcement is a reminder. It is a verbal keeping score along the way so there is less of a conflict later if someone honestly does not remember being on two.

Kelly
 
Bob Jewett said:
Here is a related section of the Regulations:

When a game has a three-foul rule, the referee should note to the players any second foul at the time that it occurs and also when the player who is on two fouls returns to the table. The first warning is not required by the rules but is meant to prevent later misunderstandings. If there is a scoreboard on which the foul count is visible to the players, it satisfies the warning requirement.
​

As for your point about remembering which ball to play, the referee must remain silent if a foul is about to occur. Also, the nine ball is never called except in certain idiotic rule sets that are outside the scope of polite, informed discussion.
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Understood on all counts but with the comment that ESPN has broadcast numerous pro matches where that silly rule was imposed. I don't recall the names of the tournaments but they were of relatively recent vintage.

But back to the "on two" call out rule, as you note, the referee is required to remain silent if a wrong ball foul is about to occur and it seems to me that he should remain equally silent if the player is about to shoot a shot that may or may not result in a third foul.

The player has been formally called on the two prior fouls and has given up BIH so the 3rd foul should be of no surprise to him. My point is, why warn about one impending foul and not the other? Player inattention is the culprit in both circumstances

Regards,
Jim
 
Kelly_Guy said:
I see your point, but the problem is when he shoots the wrong ball, you can immediately point out the correct ball he should have shot, and there is no room for an argument or difference of recollection. The on two announcement is a reminder. It is a verbal keeping score along the way so there is less of a conflict later if someone honestly does not remember being on two.

Kelly
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Granted Kelly but there are different scenarios such as when there is a ref and when there is not...or a floating ref such as the DCC.

If there IS a dedicated ref, then under present rules, the ref MUST announce or post the "on two" call but MUST NOT warn of a pending wrong ball.

In most events I have been to that have a floating ref, the players are required to engage the ref before a potential foul shot is attempted or there is flat, no foul.

I have never seen anyone deny that he jumped the CB on the break or anything that ridiculous but I HAVE seen a player deny that he shot the wrong ball and when the opponent appealed to the sweaters, the shooter said it was none of their business and that the opponent should have been "decent enough" to warn him or alerted a ref.

There was some additional whining but the shooter continued his inning.

I'm just saying that in a referred event, if he is not going to warn about a wrong ball foul, he shouldn't have to warn about 3 fouls either.

Just IMHO.

Regards,
Jim
 
I wish they never invented the three foul and push out rules. IMO they hamstring the game and the better player. 9-ball and any rotation game should be played offensively with no safeties allowed. It would be a lot more exciting for the people playing and watching and would probably get better TV ratings. Flame suit on!:D
 
The warning-on-two rule is understandably an issue that not everyone will agree with. I happen to like the rule myself, even though I agree that one should not be required (in any sense) to warn their opponent who is about to shoot at the wrong ball.

Back in college, I was playing in an annual tournament to try to qualify to represent my school at the ACUI regionals. It was a very important tournament to me at the time.

I was on two fouls, but my opponent failed to warn me. He was an experienced enough player that I thought he knew the rule, and was wondering why he wasn't warning me. I kicked, and I fouled.

He said, "three fouls, you lose". I said, "Wha? You didn't warn me." The rule sheet was hashed over, and the tournament director was called in, even after showing the kid the rule. LOL. Suddenly I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone when the TD sided with my opponent! LOL. :confused:

I said, "it says right here in the rules which you handed out: the opponent must warn the player who's on two". He was the bowling coach and didn't really know much about 9-ball, so he gave me a bowling analogy of why the written words didn't matter.

Eventually I convinced him that the bowling situation is not an apt analogy. It's just the three foul rule and you have look at it as its own separate rule.

In the analogy to a rule requiring a seated player to warn his opponent who is aimed at the wrong ball, here is where, IMHO, the analogy breaks down: If that were to be made a rule, it would not be enforceable. What would be the punishment for breaking the rule? How would you know that the seated player even noticed? How would the seated player know for sure what the shooter is planning to do with the shot? IMHO, this rule simply wouldn't "work".

The difference in the on-two-warning rule is that it does work. Apply any of the above questions to the on-two-warning rule and they all have easy answers where applicable.

In another sense, I do agree that it's somewhat of an inconvenience for the player issuing the warning. That's why I always warn my opponent immediately after the 2nd foul rather than right before he shoots his next shot.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Here is a related section of the Regulations:

When a game has a three-foul rule, the referee should note to the players any second foul at the time that it occurs and also when the player who is on two fouls returns to the table. The first warning is not required by the rules but is meant to prevent later misunderstandings. If there is a scoreboard on which the foul count is visible to the players, it satisfies the warning requirement.
​

As for your point about remembering which ball to play, the referee must remain silent if a foul is about to occur. Also, the nine ball is never called except in certain idiotic rule sets that are outside the scope of polite, informed discussion.
Click to expand...

My God. For once I agree with everything Bob says. What's wrong with me? :)
 
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