9-Ball vs. 10-Ball Breaking Formats

MattPoland

MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the aftermath of the Fedor and SVB match, Jayson Shaw gives some hot takes on the comparison of the break between the two games. Interesting bit at the 1:07:31 mark.

They also go back into it even more around 1:13

Makes you think from 2000-2020 9-ball had the reputation of being a broken game because of the break and 10-ball was the answer. But from 2020+ we're seeing them trade places and 10-ball is the more broken game because of the break.
 
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MattPoland said:
Makes you think from 2000-2020 9-ball had the reputation of being a broken game because of the break and 10-ball was the answer. But from 2020+ we're seeing them trade places and 10-ball is the more broken game because of the break.
Click to expand...

Both 9-ball and 10-ball ARE broken games--simply because game result is so HIGHLY dependent on the break.

14.1 continuous does not have this problem
1-ball does not have this problem
3-ball does not have this problem
8-ball does not have this problem
Snooker does not have this problem
and certainly
no Billiards game has this problem
 
MitchAlsup said:
Both 9-ball and 10-ball ARE broken games--simply because game result is so HIGHLY dependent on the break.

14.1 continuous does not have this problem
1-ball does not have this problem
3-ball does not have this problem
8-ball does not have this problem
Snooker does not have this problem
and certainly
no Billiards game has this problem
Click to expand...
I think the points I disagree on are…

8-ball is absolutely broken for elite players because having that many options after the break is just too easy for 800+ players. Ultimate Pool and World Championships demonstrates that where matches are pretty much decided by wet/dry break ratios.

9-ball with WNT rules doesn’t have this problem. There’s skill to make the 1-ball in the side. And. Depending on the random 2-ball position in the rack there might be some scenarios that are predictable but not all of them are. The proof is that we see a respectable amount of pushouts, safeties, jumps, kicks, and safeties after the break. And that means matches are decided by the total package of skills for the players plus whatever luck shows up. But break skills so far is more of a marginal advantage than an exploited easy-win situation like we’ve seen in all the prior incarnations of 9-ball in years past.
 
There are many conditions that could be imposed even open after the break.

High/Low only The high or low of a group is in play. Defense will be strategically bound as well.

Declare - Breaker must declare run or safety. Failure of a declared run could be a loss or subject to other peripheral conditions such as having to play through for the subsequent break and no score.

Break and first shot. Breaker shoots first inning regardless of break outcome.

Shake Break - All balls and CB go in a suitable shaker and are poured onto the playing area.

Any combination already mentioned and other conditions...
 
MattPoland said:
I think the points I disagree on are…

8-ball is absolutely broken for elite players because having that many options after the break is just too easy for 800+ players. Ultimate Pool and World Championships demonstrates that where matches are pretty much decided by wet/dry break ratios.

9-ball with WNT rules doesn’t have this problem. There’s skill to make the 1-ball in the side. And. Depending on the random 2-ball position in the rack there might be some scenarios that are predictable but not all of them are. The proof is that we see a respectable amount of pushouts, safeties, jumps, kicks, and safeties after the break. And that means matches are decided by the total package of skills for the players plus whatever luck shows up. But break skills so far is more of a marginal advantage than an exploited easy-win situation like we’ve seen in all the prior incarnations of 9-ball in years past.
Click to expand...
As much as I agree with here I don’t believe that citing 800+ fargos performances as the reason a game is broken means a whole heck of a lot. That’s only what 100 players if that?

And ultimate pool shouldn’t mean much either as the tables have literal buckets for pockets and brand new cloth for all the ones I’ve seen anyway. Don’t have to be very good at all to run a rack with those conditions.

For the record I do like the 9 on the spot version of 9ball much better and agree it’s a far better examination of one’s game.
 
InsertCleverNameHere said:
As much as I agree with here I don’t believe that citing 800+ fargos performances as the reason a game is broken means a whole heck of a lot. That’s only what 100 players if that?

And ultimate pool shouldn’t mean much either as the tables have literal buckets for pockets and brand new cloth for all the ones I’ve seen anyway. Don’t have to be very good at all to run a rack with those conditions.
Click to expand...

look at every european 8b championship since forever. it's a breaking contest. 8-ball is a great game for us mere mortals but it is too easy for pro level players.

for 9-ball i think the breakbox is as important as the 9 on the spot. i think the break is configured right as it is now, and with the template it's fair too. but who knows, maybe someone will figure it out eventually
 
skogstokig said:
look at every european 8b championship since forever. it's a breaking contest. 8-ball is a great game for us mere mortals but it is too easy for pro level players.

for 9-ball i think the breakbox is as important as the 9 on the spot. i think the break is configured right as it is now, and with the template it's fair too. but who knows, maybe someone will figure it out eventually
Click to expand...
End of the day any game is going to be “too easy” when the very best at it start with a reasonable shot. So what exactly is the point of saying it’s too easy? They all are.

Great players play offense with extreme efficiency, shocked face emoji! Haha

People want less break and runs then rules or conditions need to be implemented to stymie them. Stop playing every big event or streamed 1:1 on brand new cloth and it would change things quickly.

And don’t get me started on templates…
 
InsertCleverNameHere said:
End of the day any game is going to be “too easy” when the very best at it start with a reasonable shot. So what exactly is the point of saying it’s too easy? They all are.

Great players play offense with extreme efficiency, shocked face emoji! Haha

People want less break and runs then rules or conditions need to be implemented to stymie them. Stop playing every big event or streamed 1:1 on brand new cloth and it would change things quickly.

And don’t get me started on templates…
Click to expand...

It’s worth noting that I’m not commenting from the perspective of an amateur player (which I am) because certainly I don’t have the skills to exploit the gave to triviality.

I’m commenting from the perspective of an avid fan of professional pool competitions as a form of entertainment. The game is much more interesting to watch when all the aspects (pushout, safety, offensive kicks, kick safes, jump, masses, breakouts, etc.) are put on display. And when there’s the tension in a match where anything can happen.

So the point is that there are formats that lend themselves to that and there are formats that do not. Watching a match be solely decided based on who can exploit the break format better than his opponent for cookie cutter post-break layouts and easy runouts isn’t a testimony of their skill at pool as much as it is a demonstration on their ability to master a specific exploit. But more importantly it denies pool fans of matches that demonstrate the beauty of the game and drama of tension.

So it’s wild to live through the era where 9-ball was broken for two decades and 10-ball was the answer (in terms of rotation). And it’s interesting to live at the time when that is flipping and 10-ball is the broken game and 9-ball is the answer (in terms of rotation).

But most interesting is the section in the podcast hearing Jayson talk to that. I found it compelling.
 
Until one is in a room FULL of 780+ players, neither 9 or 10 ball formats are broken. On the local level playing since the 90's, I don't think I've ever seen a 4 pack on a 9', and I've been around lots of super strong regional players.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Until one is in a room FULL of 780+ players, neither 9 or 10 ball formats are broken. On the local level playing since the 90's, I don't think I've ever seen a 4 pack on a 9', and I've been around lots of super strong regional players.
Click to expand...
Some sports have different rules for different levels of competition. Think T-ball as an extreme example. I think it's better if one set of rules can be used for all levels of play. Relative to nine ball, there are maybe three levels of pool players -- the two you mention plus a level below, say around 400 FargoRate. For that third group, the APA rules, where you score on every ball, makes a better game. I agree that for the middle group, the break rules aren't important, except that if a template is used, the nine should be on the spot.
 
InsertCleverNameHere said:
As much as I agree with here I don’t believe that citing 800+ fargos performances as the reason a game is broken means a whole heck of a lot. That’s only what 100 players if that?

And ultimate pool shouldn’t mean much either as the tables have literal buckets for pockets and brand new cloth for all the ones I’ve seen anyway. Don’t have to be very good at all to run a rack with those conditions.

For the record I do like the 9 on the spot version of 9ball much better and agree it’s a far better examination of one’s game.
Click to expand...
I think for Ultimate Pool, the pockets aren't that wide, it's just that the cloth is brand new so the balls slide in quite easily
 
whatever size they measure is irrelevant. They play so big it’s like there’s more pocket than rail. Worthless to watch imo but to each their own. Might be fun on worn cloth with just normal pro cut pockets.
westcoast said:
I think for Ultimate Pool, the pockets aren't that wide, it's just that the cloth is brand new so the balls slide in quite easily
Click to expand...
 
MattPoland said:
9-ball with WNT rules doesn’t have this problem. There’s skill to make the 1-ball in the side. And. Depending on the random 2-ball position in the rack there might be some scenarios that are predictable but not all of them are. The proof is that we see a respectable amount of pushouts, safeties, jumps, kicks, and safeties after the break. And that means matches are decided by the total package of skills for the players plus whatever luck shows up. But break skills so far is more of a marginal advantage than an exploited easy-win situation like we’ve seen in all the prior incarnations of 9-ball in years past.
Click to expand...
Exactly right. 9ball with WNT rules is the best test of cueing skills today. Jayson Shaw is right in suggesting that the 10ball break is the most broken of them all. The two balls behind the one are dead in the side and the two corner balls are wired to go four rails into the bottom corners.
 
InsertCleverNameHere said:
Might be a radical idea(and a terrible one too but just for fun)

let’s put the 1 ball in the second row and make them hit it first lol
Click to expand...
Not a bad thought. Honestly I like how in SVB vs Fedor, you had the rack pattern randomly generated. It’d be neat to see them do that but the 1-ball and 10-ball is included in the random positions. And you have to hit the head ball even if it’s not the 1-ball.
 
MattPoland said:
Not a bad thought. Honestly I like how in SVB vs Fedor, you had the rack pattern randomly generated. It’d be neat to see them do that but the 1-ball and 10-ball is included in the random positions. And you have to hit the head ball even if it’s not the 1-ball.
Click to expand...
Hitting the head ball wouldn’t solve the “dead ball(s)” issue though. Random 1 and 10 would at least make it near impossible to play position on the 1 though.
 
sjm said:
Exactly right. 9ball with WNT rules is the best test of cueing skills today. Jayson Shaw is right in suggesting that the 10ball break is the most broken of them all. The two balls behind the one are dead in the side and the two corner balls are wired to go four rails into the bottom corners.
Click to expand...
The two balls behind the top ball has been "fixed" in Heyball by using a mechanical rack. Do this and move the rack up so the second line is set on the foot string, and 10 ball is fixed
 
At the local level, let's say 650 and under, the 9 ball break is WAY easier than the 10 ball. Both with the 1 on the spot, and break from anywhere. Go to a room with typical balls, a typical triangle rack, typical worn simonis 1-2 years old. Break 10 racks of 9 ball, and 10 racks of 10 ball. I'll give good odds the 9 ball breaks will be way more effective.
 
InsertCleverNameHere said:
End of the day any game is going to be “too easy” when the very best at it start with a reasonable shot. So what exactly is the point of saying it’s too easy? They all are.

Great players play offense with extreme efficiency, shocked face emoji! Haha
Click to expand...

lost me there.. are you saying all games are equally easy? mastering one pocket is equal to mastering 8-ball?

of course we're talking about the pros and what games and formats are determinative for them. that's how 10-ball became the gambling game in the first place, and races got longer
 
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