9 Ball vs 10 Ball

[sfleinen]

Sean,

I agree that if the rule is established in advance, the players should/would act accordingly with regard to shot selection. I think we would lose more than we would gain from such a rule, but others may disagree.

I think it's not a big issue because luck in these situations is uncommon. At the pro level, how often do you see:

1) the shooter miss an offensive shot, AND
2) leave a safety, AND
3) do so without considering that the cue ball/object ball could wind up in approximately that position if he missed?

I believe that all three of those things must occur for this shot to be considered "luck." At the pro level, these sorts of lucky shots do happen but they are unusual. There's much more luck involved in the break shot in 10-ball than you will ever see from miss/safe shots. And you're losing the creativity and beauty of intentional two-way shots if you ban them.

If you want to reduce luck, modify the break shot first. I think it's inconsistent to worry about this sort of luck while the break is still out there.

PS - it wasn't my friend who lost on the 10-ball combo; it was another poster's. On that rule I think we are in agreement. An "obvious shot" standard is not objective; I would prefer the rule that anything except a straight-in shot must be called. Everyone can agree ex ante on what is "straight-in" and what isn't.

tsw_521:

Apologies for confusing you with another poster on that "friend not knowing the rules" thing.

I appreciate what you're saying, and this same argument is brought up each and every time by players who encounter these rules for the first time. Tony hears it all the time, and his answer is the same: "you can't apply Texas Express thinking or strategies to this game. You have to think differently." The intent is to shatter the mold of Texas Express thinking, to really distinguish 10-ball as a markedly different game than 9-ball, not just "call-shot 9-ball with an extra ball." And as beautiful as two-way shots are, they are unique to 9-ball as it's played with Texas Express rules. (It's helpful to note two-way shots didn't exist in 9-ball prior to Texas Express, when the game of 9-ball was played with push-out rules.) So two way shots are an unfortunate-but-accepted casualty of this new way of thinking / strategizing in this intentionally different game of 10-ball.

9-ballers, looking to accept the game of 10-ball, have a hard time with this rule, but that's obviously because old habits (Texas Express habits) die hard. Give it time -- you'll warm up to this rule.

-Sean

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I think in this case, the writer was talking about a two-way shot in which you attempt to make 2 balls, not in a case where you play a ball and a safe at the same time. Like a carom where both balls line up to pockets, if you can call only one, the other may go in but you won't get credit. However, games like straight pool and 8-ball already play by the called shot rule where you call one ball, so this is not a big deal. If you want to play with slop, play 9-ball.

There is a difference between the way called shot works in 10 ball versus 14.1 and 8 ball though. In the latter two games you get credit for all balls made as long as you make the called shot. In 10 Ball, this is not the case.

If you don't like call-shot rules, then don't play 10-ball. Play 9-ball instead. It's that simple. Why "must" you play 10-ball, "and" play with Texas Express rules? What's the point in that? What "benefit" is playing 10-ball like that doing for you? What, let me guess, "that one extra ball makes the game s-o-o-o much more challenging?" Gimme a break. For those that think 10-ball played with Texas Express rules is "proper," I ask why?? Because 10-ball is a rotation game? And rotation means that Texas Express is bolted to its hip?

Respectfully,
-Sean

I think the reason 10 Ball is played Texas Express style in some tournaments is simply to eliminate the problems with the break inherent in 9 Ball. The organizer or participants in these events decided for whatever reason to play Texas Express 9 Ball style rules. It could be to speed up play or because more players are already familiar with these rules from playing 9 Ball for years, or whatever.

I'm not disagreeing with your position and I prefer 10 Ball myself, but I do think there is a reason Express 10 Ball is being used in events and I think it is mainly to avoid the 9 Ball break issues.

The problem I have with Texas Express 10 Ball tournaments is that, as happened to 9 Ball, like a weed it might become the standard 10 Ball format and thus relegate proper 10 Ball to the trash heap of history. I'd hate to see this happen.

If someone wants to run a tournament with Express 9 Ball type rules but eliminate the issues with the break I would prefer to see some other solution to calling it 10 Ball. Call it a 9 Ball tournament for instance, but rack 10 balls with the 9 in the middle and then drop the 10 ball after the break if it didn't go down on the snap (I'm sure someone will find a problem with this solution, I'm just sayin')

 

[sfleinen]

What's the rule called where your opponent is shooting, and he misses his ball yet leaves you hanging stuck behind some balls... and you're allowed to make him shoot again.

Name?

I think this is essential, as it, with the rest of the rules in 10 ball, virtually eliminate most of the luck in pool.

paksat:

The name of that rule is "missed called-shot gives option to incoming player," or "called shot that is missed, gives option to incoming player." And yes, I agree -- because 10-ball is intended to be such a different game from 9-ball, it shatters the mold of Texas Express thinking -- it forces you to commit to either pocketing the ball, or going for the safety. You can't have both.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "eliminate luck," though. You can't eliminate luck; you only take steps to minimize it. There *is* luck in 10-ball -- the break, for example. And, although rare, if you call, say the 10-ball into the corner pocket, and it double-points (bounces off both points of the pocket), ricochets out, banks off the opposite cushion and back into the same pocket, that shot counts, even though it was hugely lucky.

-Sean

 

[TSW]

tsw_521:

Apologies for confusing you with another poster on that "friend not knowing the rules" thing.

I appreciate what you're saying, and this same argument is brought up each and every time by players who encounter these rules for the first time. Tony hears it all the time, and his answer is the same: "you can't apply Texas Express thinking or strategies to this game. You have to think differently." The intent is to shatter the mold of Texas Express thinking, to really distinguish 10-ball as a markedly different game than 9-ball, not just "call-shot 9-ball with an extra ball." And as beautiful as two-way shots are, they are unique to 9-ball as it's played with Texas Express rules. (It's helpful to note two-way shots didn't exist in 9-ball prior to Texas Express, when the game of 9-ball was played with push-out rules.) So two way shots are an unfortunate-but-accepted casualty of this new way of thinking / strategizing in this intentionally different game of 10-ball.

9-ballers, looking to accept the game of 10-ball, have a hard time with this rule, but that's obviously because old habits (Texas Express habits) die hard. Give it time -- you'll warm up to this rule.

-Sean

Sean,

I appreciate that it's a different game and the rules/strategies may be different. I don't think this is an improvement, but we can agree to disagree on that.

I'm too young in the game to know 9-ball before Texas Express, but I've always thought this strategy was most similar to the "shot to nothing" concept in snooker. I don't know how old the snooker strategy is but I wouldn't be surprised if it pre-dates Texas Express 9-ball.

I'll have to give Tony a hard time about this one the next time I see him.

 

[sfleinen]

There is a difference between the way called shot works in 10 ball versus 14.1 and 8 ball though. In the latter two games you get credit for all balls made as long as you make the called shot. In 10 Ball, this is not the case.

DogsPlayingPool:

Yup, good point -- and that's the intent.

Folks, remember, 8-ball and 14.1 are pattern/accumulation games; 10-ball is a rotation game. No matter what is done as far as the rules for correctly pocketed balls, the ultimate goal of 10-ball -- the single move that wins the game/rack -- is to pocket that 10-ball. One can run the table beautifully all the way to the 10-ball, and if that shooter doesn't "finalize" the win by pocketing the 10-ball, it isn't a win.

It's just like in 8-ball; you can run your category of balls all the way to the 8-ball, but until you pocket the 8-ball, the game isn't over. Same thing in 14.1 -- if it's a race to 100 and you've run 99 balls, you're not "done" until you sink that 100th ball.

In all three games above, there really is no "credit" until that game-winning ball is pocketed (that is, unless one is playing in a league like the APA where one gets "points" for each ball pocketed).

I think the reason 10 Ball is played Texas Express style in some tournaments is simply to eliminate the problems with the break inherent in 9 Ball. The organizer or participants in these events decided for whatever reason to play Texas Express 9 Ball style rules. It could be to speed up play or because more players are already familiar with these rules from playing 9 Ball for years, or whatever.

I'm not disagreeing with your position and I prefer 10 Ball myself, but I do think there is a reason Express 10 Ball is being used in events and I think it is mainly to avoid the 9 Ball break issues.

The problem I have with Texas Express 10 Ball tournaments is that, as happened to 9 Ball, like a weed it might become the standard 10 Ball format and thus relegate proper 10 Ball to the trash heap of history. I'd hate to see this happen.

If someone wants to run a tournament with Express 9 Ball type rules but eliminate the issues with the break I would prefer to see some other solution to calling it 10 Ball. Call it a 9 Ball tournament for instance, but rack 10 balls with the 9 in the middle and then drop the 10 ball after the break if it didn't go down on the snap (I'm sure someone will find a problem with this solution, I'm just sayin')

I get ya, D. And you're right -- personally, I believe this "bastardization" of 10-ball -- as it was resurrected from the sands of time as an inherent call-shot game, but now is played by some with Texas Express rules -- needs to stop. Otherwise people will begin to think this is the "accepted" way of playing 10-ball.

I think this is an apropos application of the phrase "sh!t, or get off the pot" -- that is, either play 9-ball (Texas Express), or play 10-ball (call shot). You can't have both.

I like your idea of racking 10-ball with the 9-ball in the middle ("money ball" location), and perhaps the 10-ball as the center ball in the last row. The shooter breaks, and after the balls stop moving, the 10-ball is picked up by hand and removed from the table (if it wasn't outright pocketed from the break itself, in which case it'd count as a ball down and the shooter continues). This would definitely address the significant vulnerabilities of the diamond-shaped 9-ball rack.

Or how about that thread that basically stated it doesn't matter if a ball drops on the break or not -- the shooter still continues? (I don't have that link handy, otherwise I'd include it here.)

-Sean

 

[TATE]

paksat:

The name of that rule is "missed called-shot gives option to incoming player," or "called shot that is missed, gives option to incoming player." And yes, I agree -- because 10-ball is intended to be such a different game from 9-ball, it shatters the mold of Texas Express thinking -- it forces you to commit to either pocketing the ball, or going for the safety. You can't have both.

-Sean

This could be a big game changing rule. I wouldn't be in favor of this rule even though conceptionally it makes sense. We play on pretty tight tables. My vision would be that many players wouldn't attempt shots of above average difficulty if a safe were available, so you would see a lot more safety battles. I could see this slowing the game down somewhat.

Notice how long those matches took last night even without this rule on a tight table?

Chris

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

DogsPlayingPool:

Yup, good point -- and that's the intent.

Folks, remember, 8-ball and 14.1 are pattern/accumulation games; 10-ball is a rotation game. No matter what is done as far as the rules for correctly pocketed balls, the ultimate goal of 10-ball -- the single move that wins the game/rack -- is to pocket that 10-ball. One can run the table beautifully all the way to the 10-ball, and if that shooter doesn't "finalize" the win by pocketing the 10-ball, it isn't a win.

It's just like in 8-ball; you can run your category of balls all the way to the 8-ball, but until you pocket the 8-ball, the game isn't over. Same thing in 14.1 -- if it's a race to 100 and you've run 99 balls, you're not "done" until you sink that 100th ball.

In all three games above, there really is no "credit" until that game-winning ball is pocketed (that is, unless one is playing in a league like the APA where one gets "points" for each ball pocketed).



I get ya, D. And you're right -- personally, I believe this "bastardization" of 10-ball -- as it was resurrected from the sands of time as an inherent call-shot game, but now is played by some with Texas Express rules -- needs to stop. Otherwise people will begin to think this is the "accepted" way of playing 10-ball.

I think this is an apropos application of the phrase "sh!t, or get off the pot" -- that is, either play 9-ball (Texas Express), or play 10-ball (call shot). You can't have both.

I like your idea of racking 10-ball with the 9-ball in the middle ("money ball" location), and perhaps the 10-ball as the center ball in the last row. The shooter breaks, and after the balls stop moving, the 10-ball is picked up by hand and removed from the table (if it wasn't outright pocketed from the break itself, in which case it'd count as a ball down and the shooter continues). This would definitely address the significant vulnerabilities of the diamond-shaped 9-ball rack.

Or how about that thread that basically stated it doesn't matter if a ball drops on the break or not -- the shooter still continues? (I don't have that link handy, otherwise I'd include it here.)

-Sean

What is ironic about the whole thing is that 10 Ball has had a resurgence precisely because of the perceived weaknesses in 9 Ball. So it is weird to me that as soon as it starts to gain popularity (for this very reason), some are already instituting the weaknesses of 9 Ball into the game of 10 Ball.

To my way of thinking, the only rule in 10 Ball that merits debate regards the situation of what happens on a miss when no balls go down. Should it be the current WPA rule where the incoming player must take the balls in position or should it be the SBE/Tony Robles rule where the incoming player has the option. While I'm undecided on this (I can see both sides of the argument), other than this I say leave 10 Ball alone.

 

[poolpro]

tsw_521:

Apologies for confusing you with another poster on that "friend not knowing the rules" thing.

I appreciate what you're saying, and this same argument is brought up each and every time by players who encounter these rules for the first time. Tony hears it all the time, and his answer is the same: "you can't apply Texas Express thinking or strategies to this game. You have to think differently." The intent is to shatter the mold of Texas Express thinking, to really distinguish 10-ball as a markedly different game than 9-ball, not just "call-shot 9-ball with an extra ball." And as beautiful as two-way shots are, they are unique to 9-ball as it's played with Texas Express rules. (It's helpful to note two-way shots didn't exist in 9-ball prior to Texas Express, when the game of 9-ball was played with push-out rules.) So two way shots are an unfortunate-but-accepted casualty of this new way of thinking / strategizing in this intentionally different game of 10-ball.

9-ballers, looking to accept the game of 10-ball, have a hard time with this rule, but that's obviously because old habits (Texas Express habits) die hard. Give it time -- you'll warm up to this rule.

-Sean

I actually really like 9 ball texas express rules and all. I understand why many would like to take away the luck and manipulation of the break ,and I don't mind the call shot aspect either.

I REALLY LOVE the entire strategy and thinking of a 2 and often a 3 way shot ( meaning, play to pocket the ball, play position on the next ball AND play a safe if the ball doesn't go). This is a dynamic that I love about the game. As others have stated, I do not feel that this should be thought of as "lucky" at all. I disagree that the incoming player is being "punished" for a "mistake". How is that a mistake? I could play the shot exactly as called 10 times in a row! That is not a lucky shot. It is a strategic shot. You are not removing luck as much as you are removing strategy! Adding a requirement of calling shots does much to lessen the luck, taking away the 2 way option is removing a strategic dynamic.

Even under call ball and pocket rules there is some room for luck. I remember an APA 8 ball match a very long time ago where I marked up my intended 8 ball pocket. A long slight cut into the far corner. Well I slammed that ball and missed.... until the 8 came back down table and back up for a 4 rail bank into my called pocket! That WAS a lucky shot into a called pocket.

Also, I am going to strongly disagree that the 2 way shot is exclusive to texas express 9 ball. I play 2 way shots all the time in 8 ball, under call shot and apa rules. I will play a long table bank while stopping my cb in a position to make my next ball, knowing that if the bank does not go it will leave a safety. This can also happen in one pocket as well! So really it is common in 8 ball, 9 ball, and one pocket! So 3 out of 4 of the major games it is a very common strategic practice. The only one I would say it does not come into play very often is 14.1. ( though I bet if I thought about it, I could come up with an example there too).


In the end, I will give 10 ball a try, and I am sure I can warm up to it. But the points I made still stand. It is a very different flavor of game, and I will try to accept it on that basis.

Also, there is romm for luck in all games and sports. I think spectators love that. In basketball you do not have to call whether the ball goes off the rim and backboard, or goes clean in. Should that be required too? Also, as the clock is running down, and the guy just throws a hail mary shot without even looking in the direction, and it goes in, should it not count? Why not?

In golf a guy shoots a hole in one, or chips it in from 100 yards away, etc. He was REALLY just trying to get the ball close, he did not call that he was going to make the shot! Should he not get the credit for an amazing shot that is really just a good roll? Remember, these are the HIGHLIGHT reels. These are what gets played on the 9 o'clock news! This is what makes the spectators feel they got their money's worth and will remember at the end of the season.

Should all of these situations be "fixed" too?

Jw

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Well then poolpro, you would prefer the WPA 10 Ball rules because at least the 2 way shot strategic still exists on a miss where no balls fall. As I said, I'm still watching the debate on this but and am undecided but I too like the 2-way shot. Of course, this concerns the 2-way shot involving either a called ball or a safety. In either 10 Ball rules (WPA or SBE) you still do not have the 2-way shot of making the called ball while playing a possible carom or combo on the money ball (you must call one or the other).

 

[poolpro]

What about lucky position? Should we get rid of that too? I shoot in the 7 in the side and play 3 rails for the 8 on the short rail 6 inches from the corner pocket. It is obvious I was playing to the bigger zone for the 8, but I missed my line and end up perfect in the 6 inch area between the 8 and the pocket I originally intended to shoot he 8 into. Should my opponent be punished for my "mistake". Is it fair for me to win because of my lucky roll? Should my opponent get to choose to let me finish out the run or shoot from there?

Following the logic put forth, this too should be unacceptable and considered a disgusting practice. You should have to call your intended shot, AND your next shot. If you over run your position and land perfect for another pocket, you should still be forced to play it to your original plan!

My real point is, where do you stop this quest to eliminate luck? What if I break and run out all the way to the 10 ball, get straight in and perfect, after playing 9 picture perfect shots, then I miscue and foul? Is this NOT a lucky break for my opponent? Since we hate luck and fortunate rolls and mishaps sooo much, we should have a rule that we should repostion the balls and let me shoot again. I don't want my opponent to be awarded the game on a lucky miscue!

I mean we could watch a match and point out all the cases where somone had the game in hand, and due to one reason or another, gave it back to their opponent. That is the entire point of playing the games and watching then in the first place.

Or do you want it to be simply " well, we all know that player A is SUPPOSED to beat player B, so we won't even bother to play the match".

We could all just have the players vote on the matches that come up, and have that decide the winner. " player B can't win unless he got lucky anyway, so we will just give the match to player A".

When lucky situations and upsets occur THAT is what is talked about. That is what is exciting. I never ONCE got a call and heard " Hey man, YOU HAVE TO CHECK THIS OUT!!! I JUST SAW JOHNNY ARCHER RUN OUT 6 BALLS WITH BALL IN HAND!! IT WAS AMAZING, HE DID NOT MAKE A SINGLE MISTAKE! THANK GOD I GOT IT ON TAPE!!"


Just trying to make a point by going too far! I hope someone understands what I am getting at. Obviously, I am exagerating here.

I just get tired of people crying about all this luck all the time. Play more straight pool!

Jw

 

[Jaden]

actually it was agreed...

I think technically your friend, if he did not call the pocket, was wrong. 90% of the players when playing called shot say nothing if the shot is obvious, but some can (and are correct to do so within the rules) insist that you call *any* shot. You may have an arguement about this if the player has not asked any other shot to be called and then complained about this one, but even then, if the other shots were striaght-in, the combo should have been called.

The way to avoid this is to just agree before the match that anything easy is assumed, any combos or banks are called. Now that I think about it, I play in an 8-ball league, and even though it's technically called shot, the only shot I really point out is the game winner, even if it's an inch from a pocket.

This was specifically adressed in the players meeting and it was agreed that all banks and combos had to be called and non obvious regular shots. Obvious regular shots did not have to be called, but all banks and combos did.

It was specifically stated JUST like that in the players meeting. so there is really no excuse for not calling a bank or a combo. sorry...

Jaden