90 degrees from what?
- Thread starter Jodacus
- Start date
... 90 degrees between forearm and cue. Only when the cue is nearly level will the forearm be nearly perpendicular to the table bed (or floor).
Regards,
Dave
DrDave is the winnnnnner!!! again sheesh :yeah:
Many players focus on 90 to the ground which can bite them when the cue butt has to be elevated....
90 between the forearm and bicep may not even be achievable for some people based on the table height and their physiology.....
The higher the elbow usually means a more acute angle between the forearm and bicep... This is a good thing.... Basically you are putting the bicep into a position where it is contracted which will make it both stronger and faster than if the angle between the forearm and bicep was 90.....
Many players focus on 90 to the ground which can bite them when the cue butt has to be elevated....
90 between the forearm and bicep may not even be achievable for some people based on the table height and their physiology.....
The higher the elbow usually means a more acute angle between the forearm and bicep... This is a good thing.... Basically you are putting the bicep into a position where it is contracted which will make it both stronger and faster than if the angle between the forearm and bicep was 90.....
That is actually a very good question... I have never heard it discussed anywhere at length.... You may have stumped the good Doctor :thumbup:
I keep my forearm slightly bent, although I often catch myself nearly locking it straight, especially when I'm in dead stroke. For me, it makes my bridge length a little too short if I'm fully extended like that, even with a 60" cue, so I make an effort to keep a little relaxed flex in the elbow of my bridge hand. I also keep the heel of my bridge hand off the table (only my four fingertips touch the table). I know the first thing you're taught is to put as much as you can of your bridge hand on the table for stability, but it has never worked for me. I've also tried laying my forearm on the table, too, ala Nick Varner, but doesn't work for me, either. I shoot my best with a little air between the nap and my hand, been doing it that way for almost 30 years. SVB and Efren usually keep the heel of the hand elevated slightly except when power stroking, so I'm not the only one...!
90 degrees
I'm not so sure the answer is one or the other. It seems to me that there are too many angles of approach and therefore too many variations for the 90 degrees to apply universaly from the shoulder to the elbow to the wrist. I find that most of my shots are with a level cue and a 90 degree approach, from the elbow to the table bed, offers the highest level of precision. Others may have a different viewpoint.
Steeper angles may afford a more effective approach with the 90 degree angle from the shoulder to elbow to the wrist offering sufficient angle to allow for the stroke movement since the steeper the angle the smaller the range of motion between the upper arm and forearm....but not necessarily the most efficient stroke.
In its extreme, the masse shot is at the maximum level of elevation and there is no 90 degree correlation between either of the two options.
If we are given only two options and asked to pick one, we limit all possibilities that may apply to the other option. Perhaps both options apply in different scenarios.
I'm not so sure the answer is one or the other. It seems to me that there are too many angles of approach and therefore too many variations for the 90 degrees to apply universaly from the shoulder to the elbow to the wrist. I find that most of my shots are with a level cue and a 90 degree approach, from the elbow to the table bed, offers the highest level of precision. Others may have a different viewpoint.
Steeper angles may afford a more effective approach with the 90 degree angle from the shoulder to elbow to the wrist offering sufficient angle to allow for the stroke movement since the steeper the angle the smaller the range of motion between the upper arm and forearm....but not necessarily the most efficient stroke.
In its extreme, the masse shot is at the maximum level of elevation and there is no 90 degree correlation between either of the two options.
If we are given only two options and asked to pick one, we limit all possibilities that may apply to the other option. Perhaps both options apply in different scenarios.
Your forearm should be perpendicular to the line of your stroke, if you're using a pendulum stroke. That way the tip is in line with your stroke at the moment of impact, rising up to meet the contact point prior to impact and falling after impact. The line of your stroke just happens to be the line of your cue stick at impact.
Unless... Let's say you're using a very soft stroke (but still pendulum) and a well-elevated cue. The maximum velocity of your forearm is going to come when the forearm is vertical (give or take), which occurs after your forearm is perpendicular to the cue. If your forearm at impact is perpendicular to the cue, your cue is still accelerating after the stroke (with a true pendulum stroke) and you may strike the cue ball again with the follow through. With that in mind, you may want to address your stroke so impact occurs at the pendulum moment rather than the perpendicular grip moment.
I think it boils down to doing what feels more natural and gives better results. If the tip hits where you wanted to hit, and your speed is right, and your line is right, well, whatever you're doing is working, right?
Unless... Let's say you're using a very soft stroke (but still pendulum) and a well-elevated cue. The maximum velocity of your forearm is going to come when the forearm is vertical (give or take), which occurs after your forearm is perpendicular to the cue. If your forearm at impact is perpendicular to the cue, your cue is still accelerating after the stroke (with a true pendulum stroke) and you may strike the cue ball again with the follow through. With that in mind, you may want to address your stroke so impact occurs at the pendulum moment rather than the perpendicular grip moment.
I think it boils down to doing what feels more natural and gives better results. If the tip hits where you wanted to hit, and your speed is right, and your line is right, well, whatever you're doing is working, right?
theory and practice
The theory is simple and based on mechanical principles, when using the pure pendulum the fore arm should be 90 degrees to the stroke line, normally the cue stick, at contact.
However a review of tons of video and still images shows me that both professionals and instructors usually hit the cue ball "late" in the stroke in actual practice, when the fore arm has traveled forward of the theoretical "perfect" contact point. I think this may be simply a matter of comfort, the arm is in a better position to absorb the impact of the hit.
Watch video of the final stop at the cue ball before the final stroke and shot. Very very often the fore arm is already past the theoretical perfect angle when addressing the cue ball. If not using a slip stroke it isn't possible to then hit the cue ball with the fore arm at the perfect angle.
The relationship to be concerned with is that between the fore arm and the cue stick. Drawing a circle or an arc with a line tangent to it reveals that the curve is flattest when a line from the center of the circle is at a right angle to the tangent line. This indicates that the minimum height error in a pendulum stroke should be found when the fore arm, or to be more accurate and allow for wrist angles and such, the line from the elbow to the grip or cradle is at a right angle to the cue stick.
Understanding the theory is nice and can help with gross errors. Getting too wrapped up in it is an error in itself however. Very very few players actually hit at this perfect angle and the best example I know of has had it drilled into them from when she was a small child. I haven't watched her in years but Jasmine is perhaps the best example of someone that uses the "perfect contact angle" most of the time.
Hu
The theory is simple and based on mechanical principles, when using the pure pendulum the fore arm should be 90 degrees to the stroke line, normally the cue stick, at contact.
However a review of tons of video and still images shows me that both professionals and instructors usually hit the cue ball "late" in the stroke in actual practice, when the fore arm has traveled forward of the theoretical "perfect" contact point. I think this may be simply a matter of comfort, the arm is in a better position to absorb the impact of the hit.
Watch video of the final stop at the cue ball before the final stroke and shot. Very very often the fore arm is already past the theoretical perfect angle when addressing the cue ball. If not using a slip stroke it isn't possible to then hit the cue ball with the fore arm at the perfect angle.
The relationship to be concerned with is that between the fore arm and the cue stick. Drawing a circle or an arc with a line tangent to it reveals that the curve is flattest when a line from the center of the circle is at a right angle to the tangent line. This indicates that the minimum height error in a pendulum stroke should be found when the fore arm, or to be more accurate and allow for wrist angles and such, the line from the elbow to the grip or cradle is at a right angle to the cue stick.
Understanding the theory is nice and can help with gross errors. Getting too wrapped up in it is an error in itself however. Very very few players actually hit at this perfect angle and the best example I know of has had it drilled into them from when she was a small child. I haven't watched her in years but Jasmine is perhaps the best example of someone that uses the "perfect contact angle" most of the time.
Hu
you kidding - right?
pool101...Actually, the second part of your statement is quite incorrect. The forearm and upper arm will only be at 90 degrees with a certain stance height. Stand lower and the elbow is above the shoulder. Stand higher and the elbow is below the shoulder. The 90 degree 'perpendicular' refers to the cuestick and forearm, at ball address...so the comment about the ground is potentially incorrect too. If the cue is somewhat 'jacked up' the 90 will still be between the forearm and the cuestick.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
RealLive...More good players play with a locked elbow, then a bent one. That said, there are several examples of bent elbow professional players who play lights out. Your shoulder need not be involved with the shot.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Just at address of CB at about 1-1.5 cm away, I should have specified.
I cannot remember any pro players being far away from CB, sooner or later they all seem to get very close. Addressing CB from ways away seems just wrong.
Wolven...Agreed! I actually want my students to learn to get the cuetip no more than 1/4" to 1/2" away from the CB. Otherwise how are you really going to know where you want to strike it? 
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Assuming you can find a good teacher in your area and even then what he will show you will be an interpretation.
You can find many players that know the game but few that can take apart mechanics into its smallest elements.
A good teacher must be a good observer and actually understand what the student is going through.
Pool is relative, there is a relationship between elements that work best together within a specific model.
Outside this model the elements work a little differently.
There are several models all with its own particularities.
Mixing elements from each approach leads to a disaster.
Very few people know each model. You kind of have to live it to understand it.
So, in the end clarification of anything is not easy to get.
