9ball without the break is NO 9ball...

You don't think being a better breaker is more advantageous than being, say, a better safety player, or kicker, or jumper, or long shot maker... or take your pick?

A better breaker is a player of more talent on the break and more hard work around it, there is no reason to have a skill in any part of the game "dissapearing" in favor of the less talented and less working player in that part.
If he wants to be equal in that part too he should put the hard work behind it (even more if he hass less talent), not be allowed to bypass this procedure around a diiferent rack setup. That can only be good for the game (pursuit of excellence in all parts) and protects the best players, the opposite is bad.
 
Do you see them doing something in Tennis so as to restrict the better servers, no of coarse you don't.
Why because the serve is part of the game, and the people who practice the serve more, have better serves as it should be.
 
Making the break a wired shot does take a lot of other skills out of the game, though. Maybe not in theory but certainly in practice.

If you make the break harder, then the best breakers should still be able to make a ball more often. You say both players have an equal chance when the match starts at 0-0, well guess what? The match still starts at 0-0 if you rack the 9-ball on the spot, or use a breakbox, or a 3-point rule, or whatever. So what's the difference?

Why should the break be more important than the 8+ shots that come after it combined?

Why not learn how to break instead of hitting it with your purse?
 
OK, but....,

The best breakers in the game, also happen to be the best players, SVB, Busty, Archer, Dennis O, Alex P and The Rocket just to name a few.

Someone might beat these guys in a short race on a given day, but it wont be because they break better or because they worked the rack.

I
 
The best breakers in the game, also happen to be the best players, SVB, Busty, Archer, Dennis O, Alex P and The Rocket just to name a few.

Someone might beat these guys in a short race on a given day, but it wont be because they break better or because they worked the rack.

I

Yes, let's not forget though that they break better because of more talent and especially because of more work on their break too...
 
I bet Petros has a damn good break.

I'm only an average B player (added: ok I've been an A player in Greece for a couple of years in the past, know what it takes to win against top players straight ahead in the "old" way - hard work and work and work...) , I just love the better players in all parts of the game being protected and being allowed to bring out the best of it for the rest of us to enjoy the most, preserving pool excellence in all parts and inspiring more young kids to follow.
 
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You don't think being a better breaker is more advantageous than being, say, a better safety player, or kicker, or jumper, or long shot maker... or take your pick?

If it is what is stopping the other players from putting in the hard work and dedication it takes to get a better break
, oh that's
right it's the everybody gets a trophy rules you want implemented. That can only do more harm to the character of the game, and already has.
 
Funny, I was just thinking about this yesterday, and I agree with Petros for one simple reason, 9ball is a ROTATION game. In other words, you're supposed to be trying to sink the one (or any ball) on the break. To remove that possibility completely is to frustrate the point of the game itself.
 
The racking game is just a way for people who can't break to slow down those who can.
With Neutral racking the guys who know how to break would still excel as they should.
We have big tournaments now with alternating break, just ridiculous. No way to make a big comeback or run packages, which just isn't 9 ball.

I'm not against big breaks, or players running packages.

What I think is the big issue is whether its augmented by the rigging or not.

If Jay Helfert racks them and someone runs 9, 10 or 11 racks, thats pretty damned cool. Oh wait, that did happen, once, didn't it? :p

It's the guys who are rigging it in their favor, with a patterned run-out, that is the issue. Or the guy who is racking for the breaker, rigging it so he can't make a ball.

I would love to see big runs, in a fair environment. The skill involved, from controlling the break to the actual run-out, that is amazing. On a level field, er-table.
 
I'm not against big breaks, or players running packages.

What I think is the big issue is whether its augmented by the rigging or not.

If Jay Helfert racks them and someone runs 9, 10 or 11 racks, thats pretty damned cool. Oh wait, that did happen, once, didn't it? :p

It's the guys who are rigging it in their favor, with a patterned run-out, that is the issue. Or the guy who is racking for the breaker, rigging it so he can't make a ball.

I would love to see big runs, in a fair environment. The skill involved, from controlling the break to the actual run-out, that is amazing. On a level field, er-table.

Very good observations, an alternative could be spot on the 9 (or not), membrane used, all balls touching, racking for the opponent putting balls in any order you wish (your only defence and he can change break side to overcome it), big box (or not), dry break (or not), and so on. The concept in any case is the same, creating a fair environment, even when there is no neutral racker provided.
 
They should draw a center line from foot spot to foot rail.
That way it's easy to see if the racks are tilted.

They draw a head string many times in tournaments over seas
whats so hard about that.
 
there needs to be balance which is easier said than done

I bought the DVD's of the One Pocket finals of Derby City for a couple years. Corey D finished second one year out of low hundreds of players. It was rack your own. I was stunned to watch Corey casually reach in the rack and pull all but the front two rows of balls to the back of the rack every time he racked, slug racking himself keeping the balls together.

Local gamblers playing for five bucks a game wouldn't tolerate that crap but apparently it was legal at the Derby! Corey is a great pool player but without using that gimmick the odds are damned slim of him getting to second place in a One Pocket event that size. He would have won but Efren was playing fantastic even for Efren that year.

The break should matter. Maybe it should be the most important shot of the game. It shouldn't be the game. I had the called eight ball put on me three times to start a match-up, it was slow rolling and stopped in the jaws to keep from being four times in a row. No idea how many times the breaker could do that but it was getting old in a hurry. I made a note to not let him break anymore!

Trying to balance the break and the rest of the game is a never ending struggle as the break evolves. Rules have been passed in the past outlawing the slow break and of course two shot pushout is long gone. We still call the game nine ball. No reason for the rules not to continue to evolve but it does seem like rotation needs to move to ten, twelve, or even fifteen ball at the highest levels. Racks ran are cool. A banger with a break running packages ain't.

Hu
 
I bought the DVD's of the One Pocket finals of Derby City for a couple years. Corey D finished second one year out of low hundreds of players. It was rack your own. I was stunned to watch Corey casually reach in the rack and pull all but the front two rows of balls to the back of the rack every time he racked, slug racking himself keeping the balls together.

Local gamblers playing for five bucks a game wouldn't tolerate that crap but apparently it was legal at the Derby! Corey is a great pool player but without using that gimmick the odds are damned slim of him getting to second place in a One Pocket event that size. He would have won but Efren was playing fantastic even for Efren that year.

The break should matter. Maybe it should be the most important shot of the game. It shouldn't be the game. I had the called eight ball put on me three times to start a match-up, it was slow rolling and stopped in the jaws to keep from being four times in a row. No idea how many times the breaker could do that but it was getting old in a hurry. I made a note to not let him break anymore!

Trying to balance the break and the rest of the game is a never ending struggle as the break evolves. Rules have been passed in the past outlawing the slow break and of course two shot pushout is long gone. We still call the game nine ball. No reason for the rules not to continue to evolve but it does seem like rotation needs to move to ten, twelve, or even fifteen ball at the highest levels. Racks ran are cool. A banger with a break running packages ain't.

Hu

LOL, A banger doesn't run packages.
 
What???

ShootingArts; Trying to balance the break and the rest of the game is a never ending struggle as the break evolves. Rules have been passed in the past outlawing the slow break and of course two shot pushout is long gone. We still call the game nine ball. No reason for the rules not to continue to evolve but it does seem like rotation needs to move to ten said:
Can you name the banger that's running racks? Corey cant beat any of the top players with or without the rigging the rack, so it doesn't matter what one player does, it doesn't mean we should change the game.
 
Where is this happening???

I'm not against big breaks, or players running packages.

What I think is the big issue is whether its augmented by the rigging or not.

If Jay Helfert racks them and someone runs 9, 10 or 11 racks, thats pretty damned cool. Oh wait, that did happen, once, didn't it? :p

It's the guys who are rigging it in their favor, with a patterned run-out, that is the issue. Or the guy who is racking for the breaker, rigging it so he can't make a ball.

I would love to see big runs, in a fair environment. The skill involved, from controlling the break to the actual run-out, that is amazing. On a level field, er-table.

Is there more of this going on than I know about?? What tournaments are being won because of this, what guys are getting knocked out of tournaments because of this??
 
I get all the arguments about the break being exciting, and being one of many pool skills, etc, and agree with them. All valid and good points. But here is the problem, and it is really a catch 22.

Player A breaks better and/or rigs the rack better.

Player B shoots straighter, players better position, plays better patterns, has better strategy, plays better safes, kicks better, banks better, masses better, jumps better, and handles pressure better.

Player A beats player B all the time. I don't think player A should ever win. And that is what it really comes down to, do you believe that one certain skill should have so much importance that it can trump every other skill combined? Because right now it often does.

I don't want to lose the excitement of the break. I don't want to diminish one of the important skills in pool. But I also don't want to see player A beating player B all the time, and unfortunately we can't have it both ways. Therein lies the catch 22. So which is more important to you? For me I just can't bear to see the superior player in every other regard and skill losing to the guy that rigs the rack better or breaks better. As much as I hate it, between the two I would rather see the break changed a bit so that it does not have so much weight than it can overcome someone else who is superior in every other skill. Pool for me is more about shooting and position and strategy and the like than it is about breaking.

Others disagree and are ok with one skill being able to outweigh all the others combined, but it is just silly to me. Pool is and should be mostly about shot making and position play and strategy etc, not about who can break the best. Just have break contest tournaments if the break is the most important thing to you. I want to see the superior player win, not the superior racker/breaker. Now if on net they are pretty close to equal in everything else then of course the superior racker/breaker should win, as the break is another one of the skills in pool, but it should never be so heavily a factor that the superior racker/breaker beats the superior player.
 
Is there more of this going on than I know about?? What tournaments are being won because of this, what guys are getting knocked out of tournaments because of this??

I have read many reports of certain individuals manipulating the racks, both in rack your own, and opponent racks. Its has been reported here that it is a rather common practice, from small manipulations to more blatant occurrences.

You see in many tournaments where the "checking the rack" goes on for 5 minutes or more. What is going on during all this "checking"? One player is making the rack do one thing, the other is objecting to it.

It is truly silly that a competitor has the ability to influence a contest in this fashion. Of course they all do it, like they say in baseball, "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying". Meaning, your opponent is gonna be doing it, so you'd better be doing so as well. At least be looking out for it...

Neutral rackers, in major tournaments, and in the final 16 of all pro tourneys. Get rid of the foolishness.
 
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