9Ball, your break, you shoot and

Tom In Cincy

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
I've got some players that disagree with the current World Standard Rules for this 'opening game shot and results'

What happens if;

you miscue and hit the one ball but nothing goes to a rail?
you miscue and try to stop the cue ball going down the table with your cue?
you miscue and the cue ball hardly moves?
you miscue and the cue ball crosses the head string?
you misscue and miss the rack?
you hit the one ball and the cue ball flys off the table?
you hit the one ball and the one ball or any ball flies off the table?
you scratch?

Or, you could ask, "what conditions does the 'breaker' have a foul, and the incoming player have cue ball in hand anywhere on the table?"

In 9 Ball, when does the game start?
 
Tom In Cincy said:
I've got some players that disagree with the current World Standard Rules for this 'opening game shot and results'

What happens if;

1. you miscue and hit the one ball but nothing goes to a rail?
2. you miscue and try to stop the cue ball going down the table with your cue?
3. you miscue and the cue ball hardly moves?
4. you miscue and the cue ball crosses the head string?
5. you misscue and miss the rack?
6. you hit the one ball and the cue ball flys off the table?
7. you hit the one ball and the one ball or any ball flies off the table?
8. you scratch?

Or, you could ask, "what conditions does the 'breaker' have a foul, and the incoming player have cue ball in hand anywhere on the table?"

In 9 Ball, when does the game start?
Click to expand...

Assuming the game's Texas Express, I believe that these are the correct answers:

1. That's an illegal break because four numbered balls did not go to a rail and I'm assuming an object ball wasn't pocketed either. Opponent re-racks and breaks.
2. If an illegal break occurs on this one, opponent re-racks and breaks. If a legal break occurs, ball in hand to opponent.
3. If the cue ball stays above the head string, you get to try again.
4. Same answer as #2.
5. Opponent breaks.
6. Same as #2.
7. Same as #2, except... when a legal break, put ball(s) that went off the table into a pocket. They stay down.
8. Same as #2.

Re when the game starts, the game starts when the cue ball, placed above the head string, is struck with the cue's tip in a forward motion of the cue and the cue ball crosses the head string.
 
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Tom In Cincy said:
I've got some players that disagree with the current World Standard Rules for this 'opening game shot and results'

What happens if;

you miscue and hit the one ball but nothing goes to a rail?
you miscue and try to stop the cue ball going down the table with your cue?
you miscue and the cue ball hardly moves?
you miscue and the cue ball crosses the head string?
you misscue and miss the rack?
you hit the one ball and the cue ball flys off the table?
you hit the one ball and the one ball or any ball flies off the table?
you scratch?

Or, you could ask, "what conditions does the 'breaker' have a foul, and the incoming player have cue ball in hand anywhere on the table?"

In 9 Ball, when does the game start?
Click to expand...

If you are playing a race, you just gave up the first break and they may get you a game down pretty fast. Not a good way to start off 1 game in the Hole.
 
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I went back and edited my post after reading the rules. See above for new answers to each question.

In response to this question... Or, you could ask, "what conditions does the 'breaker' have a foul, and the incoming player have cue ball in hand anywhere on the table?" ...

I believe that the answer is... 1) when the break is considered a legal break AND 2) the breaker EITHER a) scratched, b) knocked any ball off the table, c)did not hit the one ball first, d) contacted a rail first before striking the rack, or e) interferred with the path of the cue ball after striking it (even if that interference occurred above the head string).

If an illegal break occurs, the opponent re-racks and breaks.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
I've got some players that disagree with the current World Standard Rules for this 'opening game shot and results'

What happens if;

you miscue and hit the one ball but nothing goes to a rail?
This is a foul. BIH to incoming player.

you miscue and try to stop the cue ball going down the table with your cue?
Foul. BIH to incoming player

you miscue and the cue ball hardly moves?
Foul. BIH to incoming player

you miscue and the cue ball crosses the head string?
Foul. BIH to incoming player

you misscue and miss the rack?
Foul. BIH to incoming player

you hit the one ball and the cue ball flys off the table?
Foul. BIH to incoming player

you hit the one ball and the one ball or any ball flies off the table?
Foul. BIH to incoming player

you scratch?
Foul. BIH to incoming player

Or, you could ask, "what conditions does the 'breaker' have a foul, and the incoming player have cue ball in hand anywhere on the table?"

In 9 Ball, when does the game start?
When the CB has been struck by the cue tip.
Click to expand...

Definitely post the answers Tom.

Barbara
 
I agree with Barbara 100%...

and see who you are playing.. if it's a game against a buddy, I always tell them to break again...

For money or any serious game... the 3 safe is simple at this point... tap the 1 without breaking up the rack and send the cue to the back of the rack.. repeat... unless they are pretty good at kicking...:D :D :D
 
cigardave said:
I went back and edited my post after reading the rules. See above for new answers to each question.

In response to this question... Or, you could ask, "what conditions does the 'breaker' have a foul, and the incoming player have cue ball in hand anywhere on the table?" ...

I believe that the answer is... 1) when the break is considered a legal break AND 2) the breaker EITHER a) scratched, b) knocked any ball off the table, c)did not hit the one ball first, d) contacted a rail first before striking the rack, or e) interferred with the path of the cue ball after striking it (even if that interference occurred above the head string).

If an illegal break occurs, the opponent re-racks and breaks.
Click to expand...

Where does it say in the rules all that has to be the case for it to be ball-in-hand for the incoming player?

Where does it say the incoming player re-racks and breaks if the cluster isn't hit/hit properly?
 
Barbara said:
Definitely post the answers Tom.

Barbara
Click to expand...

All your answers are correct, as I would have anticipated from your experiences.

Your final answer (when does the game start?) is partially correct.
5.2 RACKING THE BALLS
The object balls are racked in a diamond shape, with the 1-ball at the top of the diamond and on the foot spot, the 9-ball in the center of the diamond, and the other balls in random order, racked as tightly as possible. The game begins with cue ball in hand behind the head string.
From this point on other specific rules of 9 ball take place as well as the general rules of play.
 
Bluey2King said:
I was told that the game does not start untill CB hits the one ball.
Click to expand...

And in the 70s, all balls pocketed on a scratch were put on the spot in numerical order. On a scratch the incoming player always had cue ball in hand behind the headstring.

The game has evolved and the rules have changed.
 
cigardave said:
If an illegal break occurs, the opponent re-racks and breaks.
Click to expand...

cigardave,

Your statement is an option in 8 ball, but not in 9 ball according to the World Standard Rules.

5.4 LEGAL BREAK SHOT
The rules governing the break shot are the same as for other shots except:

1.The breaker must strike the1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.

2. If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or if the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.

3. If on the break shot, the breaker causes an object ball to jump off the table, it is a foul and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. The object ball is not re-spotted (exception: if the object ball is the 9-ball, it is re-spotted).
 
Tom In Cincy said:
All your answers are correct, as I would have anticipated from your experiences.

Your final answer (when does the game start?) is partially correct.
5.2 RACKING THE BALLS
The object balls are racked in a diamond shape, with the 1-ball at the top of the diamond and on the foot spot, the 9-ball in the center of the diamond, and the other balls in random order, racked as tightly as possible. The game begins with cue ball in hand behind the head string.
From this point on other specific rules of 9 ball take place as well as the general rules of play.
Click to expand...

Actually Tom, I was wrong on the question about deflecting the cue ball on a miscue. It's BIH behind the head string, Rule 3.9.:o

And I'm still looking for the ruling that the game starts when the cueball is struck because this was a drastic rule change from what it used to be - when the cue ball passed over the head string.

Barbara
 
Barbara said:
Actually Tom, I was wrong on the question about deflecting the cue ball on a miscue. It's BIH behind the head string, Rule 3.9.:o

And I'm still looking for the ruling that the game starts when the cueball is struck because this was a drastic rule change from what it used to be - when the cue ball passed over the head string. This is a proviso for Striaght Pool

Barbara
Click to expand...


Rule 3.9 under general rule of play
3.9 DEFLECTING THE CUE BALL ON THE GAME’S OPENING BREAK
On the break shot, stopping or deflecting the cue ball after it has crossed the head string and prior to hitting the racked balls is considered a foul and loss of turn. The opponent has the option of receiving cue ball in hand behind the head string or passing the cue ball in hand behind the head string back to the offending player. (Exception: 9-Ball, see rule 5.3: “cue ball in hand anywhere on the table”). A warning must be given that a second violation during the match will result in the loss of the match by forfeiture. (See Rule 3.28.)


and rule 3.10
3.10 CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING
This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player's scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string. If the incoming player inadvertently places the cue ball on or below the head string, the referee or the opposing player must inform the shooting player of improper positioning of the cue ball before the shot is made. If the opposing player does not so inform the shooting player before the shot is made, the shot is considered legal. If the shooting player is informed of improper positioning, he must then reposition the cue ball. If a player positions the cue ball completely and obviously outside the kitchen and shoots the cue ball, it is a foul. (Refer to Rule 2.21) When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player drives the cue ball past the head string by striking it with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player's hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand. Once the cue ball is in play per the above, it may not be impeded in any way by the player; to do so is to commit a foul. Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
cigardave,

Your statement is an option in 8 ball, but not in 9 ball according to the World Standard Rules.

5.4 LEGAL BREAK SHOT
The rules governing the break shot are the same as for other shots except:

1.The breaker must strike the1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.

2. If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or if the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.

3. If on the break shot, the breaker causes an object ball to jump off the table, it is a foul and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. The object ball is not re-spotted (exception: if the object ball is the 9-ball, it is re-spotted).
Click to expand...

Tom - Here's the rule that I read...

3.5: Illegal Break

Failure to execute a legal break (refer to rule 3.4) constitutes an illegal break. The foul allows the incoming player to rack and break.

The source is... http://www.texasexpress.com/rules_sec3.htm

We must be using different sources.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
I...
you miscue and try to stop the cue ball going down the table with your cue?
...
Click to expand...
This should be unsportsmanlike conduct, just like every other situation where you intentionally change the situation on the table other than by hitting the cue ball with your cue tip.

The current rules are slightly broken for this. I don't think any warning should be required. If a player doesn't know the rules, he should pay for his ignorance. This assumes that the rules are available, stable and comprehensible.
 
cigardave said:
... The source is... http://www.texasexpress.com/rules_sec3.htm ..
Click to expand...
Texas Express Promotions used to run tournaments and wrote their own rules for their own tournaments. They've been out of business for a while. I don't think there's anyone working on their rules. Often when people say "Texas Express" rules, they just mean ball-in-hand anywhere for a foul, and they have no idea what the actual TE rules are. There is an analysis somewhere on the web of the differences between WPA/BCA, TE and APA rules.
 
cigardave said:
Tom - Here's the rule that I read...

3.5: Illegal Break

Failure to execute a legal break (refer to rule 3.4) constitutes an illegal break. The foul allows the incoming player to rack and break.

The source is... http://www.texasexpress.com/rules_sec3.htm

We must be using different sources.
Click to expand...

We are using different sources. I am using the World Standard Rules (effective Jan 1st 2006) I also stated in my original post that I was using the World Standard Rules.

I am quite familiar with the Texas Express rules and I've used them in tournaments for a very long time (since the early 90s) and I personally like them better than the WSR. But, Consistancy is the key to for organized competition. Not everyone uses the same rules. I selected the World Standard in my tournaments because everyone can purchase these rules easily. And, I have a copy available for all the players to read and for my reference.

The TE rules are only available on-line. I also have a copy printed out for reference. The TE rules are not revised and have been the same for the last 10 years or so. The WSR are updated and have been evolving over the last year.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
All your answers are correct, as I would have anticipated from your experiences.

Your final answer (when does the game start?) is partially correct.
5.2 RACKING THE BALLS
The object balls are racked in a diamond shape, with the 1-ball at the top of the diamond and on the foot spot, the 9-ball in the center of the diamond, and the other balls in random order, racked as tightly as possible. The game begins with cue ball in hand behind the head string.
From this point on other specific rules of 9 ball take place as well as the general rules of play.
Click to expand...

Tom... your question was "In 9 Ball, when does the game start?"... emphasis added.

In the sentence you quoted... The game begins with cue ball in hand behind the head string.... it does not say... The game begins when the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.

I believe the sentence you quoted, as written, describes the starting position of the cue ball and also addresses the fact that the breaker can place it anywhere behind the head string.

As far as when the game starts, I don't find that in the rules, as it is not important. What I mean by that is... the game is not timed, therefore what difference does it make in determining when it starts.

Someone might say that it starts when you lag. Others may say that it starts when the rack is racked. Others may say that it is when the breaker positions the cue ball... or contacts the cue ball with his cue tip.

I guess that I don't see the significance of when. Is there any?
 
Tom In Cincy said:
We are using different sources. I am using the World Standard Rules (effective Jan 1st 2006) I also stated in my original post that I was using the World Standard Rules.

I am quite familiar with the Texas Express rules and I've used them in tournaments for a very long time (since the early 90s) and I personally like them better than the WSR. But, Consistancy is the key to for organized competition. Not everyone uses the same rules. I selected the World Standard in my tournaments because everyone can purchase these rules easily. And, I have a copy available for all the players to read and for my reference.

The TE rules are only available on-line. I also have a copy printed out for reference. The TE rules are not revised and have been the same for the last 10 years or so. The WSR are updated and have been evolving over the last year.
Click to expand...

Tom - Thanks for the info re the World Standard Rules. I wasn't aware that they were recently effective. I'll go find 'em on the web. :)
 
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