a blurry one pocket rule that cost me money.

[John Daminato]

Recently was in a money match and I had to bridge over a ball and on my back stroke I bumped a couple object balls, the cue ball was still in motion and rolled into or through the path of those balls. The opponent said its a foul. Now in my heart I felt, yaa it should probably be a foul but under the rules we were playing I believed it not to be a foul. That rule being "cue ball fouls only" only. So we questioned the other one pocket players and they said no foul. Which really led to drama. Then we called up two pro's and they said for sure a foul. Which ended up being the final decision.

What I really thought we should of done is have the opponent put the balls back where he thought they should be but this was unacceptable to him.

Now I have recently decided to download the "official" rules to my phone
and after looking over the foul section I concluded that I was right all along. http://www.onepocket.org/one_pocket_pool_rules.htm
I have concluded that this is some "unwritten" rule between players.

This IMO is a shady rule that needs to be refined officially because there will be the day that the cue ball rolls towards the balls you bumped and may be 1/16th of an inch from missing them and how the hell do you decide if it would of hit or not.

Of course if were playing "all ball fouls" its 100% a foul.

For those of you that agree or disagree, please copy and paste the rule that decides this so that in the future I can reference it.

 

[bud green]

If the cueball travelled where the moved balls were, or hit them, I'd call a foul too.

Almost everyone I know plays with these rules. Moving a ball that doesn't come into play is one thing, moving balls that would have changed the final outcome is different.

 

[Baxter]

If the movement of the object balls interfered with the path of the cueball and affected the outcome of the shot, then it is a foul. If you wouldn't have moved those balls, the cueball would have hit them. But, you did move them, so the cueball didn't hit them, and it affected the outcome of the shot. Clearly a foul.

I've never played any other way, or even seen anyone else play any other way.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I didn't see anywhere in the rules you posted where it mentioned the CB going through the path of a moved object ball, and I think that's the main reason you were called for a foul.

I believe in most other games, this would be a foul. I don't see why it would be different in one pocket. Just my opinion. Someone more knowledgeable can shed some light on the situation.

 

[formidableone14]

6.1 Unless otherwise announced by the tournament director, One Pocket is played according to the World General Rules 1.16.1, ‘cue ball fouls only’. In the event that a player accidentally moves a ball, the opponent may elect to have the disturbed ball remain in its new position or be restored to its original position. When balls are restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player. If no official is available to restore disturbed balls, then the players must come to agreement on satisfactory replacement of the disturbed balls prior to continuing play.

maybe? Just what I saw that looked close to what you were saying.

 

[John Daminato]

This is an "Unwritten" rule. Either that or I have not found it yet. I agree most players will say its a foul but I have already personally talked to few that say its not and one of those things that needs to be agreed on before the start of the game. This discrepancy should not exist IMO.
You can call a foul under these conditions but if the player said he's unsure and you know he's not a jackass or purposely exploiting ignorance then you have to reference the "Official rules" and if you read the official rules it says.

" In the event that a player accidentally moves a ball, the opponent may elect to have the disturbed ball remain in its new position or be restored to its original position. When balls are restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player. If no official is available to restore disturbed balls, then the players must come to agreement on satisfactory replacement of the disturbed balls prior to continuing play. "

 

[John Daminato]

If the movement of the object balls interfered with the path of the cueball and affected the outcome of the shot, then it is a foul. If you wouldn't have moved those balls, the cueball would have hit them. But, you did move them, so the cueball didn't hit them, and it affected the outcome of the shot. Clearly a foul.

I've never played any other way, or even seen anyone else play any other way.

All Im asking is for one person to show me this in the official rules. It really doesn't matter what you think it is based on the way you have played for years. Im not trying to be an asshole but this is why Im stuck in the first place, peoples beliefs that a rule exists but in all reality it doesnt.

 

[John Daminato]

I found this which kinda says its a foul but that is implying that a player is puroposely moving balls..

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

 

[theburg]

.......

I would have to say that is a foul...the main factor being that it may completely change the game...if the cite balk would have made contact with those balls and even moved them 1/32 of an inch it still changes the game...I'm sure all of us have missed balls by that much or less and lost games...once they've left their original position, it's impossible to tell if they actually would've been moved, but that's the price you pay for moving them in the first place i suppose...but that's just the way i see it...

 

[John Daminato]

Anytime you move any ball accidentally in a back stroke it changes the game but its not a foul unless you play "all ball fouls" Which we were not.
If you bump a ball in any other situation, you just put it back and the players agree on its position. Now your saying under this circumstance that you bump a ball and the cue ball should of hit it or may have it or hit it on the wrong side, thats a foul. Thatss waaaaay toooo broad of a rule, hence why it doesnt exist probably..

What if bridge over a ball and you move the object ball that is stuck to the cue ball on the back stroke? Thats not a foul, even tho its touching the cue ball and is in possibly in the future path of the cue ball. This is my point, its a bluurrryy rule and there needs to be an official way to determine if its really a foul.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Thats not a foul, even tho its touching the cue ball and is in possibly in the future path of the cue ball. This is my point, its a bluurrryy rule and there needs to be an official way to determine if its really a foul.

That's not a foul, because the CB isn't moving.

 

[kanecalgary]

If you move more than one ball it's a foul, even if you haven't shot yet. Also, I think if any ball enters a 6 inch radius of where the moved ball was, it's a foul. IMO. Im not interested in researching the rules for you.

 

[John Daminato]

That's not a foul, because the CB isn't moving.

OMG, facts not opinions, can anyone give me any official rule that talks about how the games rules change once the cue ball is in motion?

For example: rule 12.1: once the cue is in motion any ball that is moving from not first striking the cue ball is a foul.

 

[John Novak]

WPA Cue Ball Fouls Only

The first line on OnePocket.org says Unless clearly contradicted below, general pocket billiards rules of play and etiquette apply to One Pocket, and complete General Rules are available from the World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA).

Below is from WPA http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_regulations#20


20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Of course, when in a money match, rules to play by must be discussed prior to posting.... Gambling rules can change from table to table in a lot of pool rooms.

I always ruled that if you disturb two balls you might as well take the shot, its going to cost you a foul anyway... for what it's worth.

Tournament rules (Like the DCC), World Pool Standardized rules (never even posted One Pocket rules), OnePocket.org rules and Gambling rules are all different in one way or the other.

Is it base of the ball or it must be completely over the head string?

 

[Tramp Steamer]

We play "cue ball fouls only", but from time to time someone will strike another ball with his cue and that usually starts a rukus. Moving a ball with the hand while taking a bridge, however, is seldom a problem.
My view on your circumstances is that since the cue ball was involved, then a foul took place.
Admittedly the rules are vague, and that's why I take along my neice Sarasota, as a bodyguard. If she can't whip them she can sure as hell scare the beejesus out of them. Say hi to the folks, Sarasota. :smile:

 

[realkingcobra]

Anytime you move any ball accidentally in a back stroke it changes the game but its not a foul unless you play "all ball fouls" Which we were not.
If you bump a ball in any other situation, you just put it back and the players agree on its position. Now your saying under this circumstance that you bump a ball and the cue ball should of hit it or may have it or hit it on the wrong side, thats a foul. Thatss waaaaay toooo broad of a rule, hence why it doesnt exist probably..

What if bridge over a ball and you move the object ball that is stuck to the cue ball on the back stroke? Thats not a foul, even tho its touching the cue ball and is in possibly in the future path of the cue ball. This is my point, its a bluurrryy rule and there needs to be an official way to determine if its really a foul.

No, all ball fouls is just that, touch any ball other than the cue ball and it's a foul. Cue ball fouls only....only applies to before the cue ball is set into motion. Once the cue ball has been struck, anything caused to move after that other than by the cue ball, is a foul. With cue ball fouls only, if you're getting ready to line up for a shot and bump an object ball by accident, then it gets replaced as best as possible, such as setting up the bridge or whatever.

 

[KRJ]

Recently was in a money match and I had to bridge over a ball and on my back stroke I bumped a couple object balls, the cue ball was still in motion and rolled into or through the path of those balls. The opponent said its a foul.

You most have been playing by the old "JD" rules again

 

[PaulieB]

Seems like a foul to me. The cue ball foul only rule is mostly in place for setting up and practice strokes, or leaning over a ball while shooting. If you contact another ball during those actions, they can be left in place or put back in place according to the opponents desire. If, as you said, in your backstroke, you contacted an object ball... and still went on to continue to hit the cue ball ... AND the cue ball came around to anywhere near the balls that were in question, it was a foul. Anything after the shot, cue ball only foul rules basically go out the window. Anything moving that shouldn't be moving that could of been changed by an illegal hit is a foul.

Recently was in a money match and I had to bridge over a ball and on my back stroke I bumped a couple object balls, the cue ball was still in motion and rolled into or through the path of those balls.

*edit* Interestingly, I can't imagine hitting a ball during my backswing and not holding up or lifting up on my final stroke. Most players have a slight pause after their backswing and would immediately lift up or stand up and say "I hit that ball". The only time I have ever made a foul that created a "cue ball only foul" debate was when cueing over a ball and during my delivery stroke.

 

[1pocket]

The first line on OnePocket.org says Unless clearly contradicted below, general pocket billiards rules of play and etiquette apply to One Pocket, and complete General Rules are available from the World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA).

Below is from WPA http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_regulations#20


20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.

Thank you, this is the answer I would have given -- from what I read of the opening poster's description, his shot was a foul based on the general rules quoted in red above. It looks like the general rules reference in the OnePocket.org rules has changed from 1.16.1 to the #20 quoted above, that is all -- the general rule itself looks the same as it has been for quite a while. The One Pocket rules defer to the general rules in general matters such as this, just as you noted.