A challenge to English

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
After the basics; the trouble with systems are that blind devotees follow vain repetition and never rise above that to find their own creativity and best potential.The true Champion is not a carbon copy but unique...

Today is the final day of the US Open golf tournament. The BEST players in the world are entered and trying to win it.

EACH of them follow a system and watchful eye of a professional golf instructor.
Sometimes the same instructor that started teaching them as teenagers.

If they hadn't, more than likely they'd be at some driving range beating balls next to some other hack player giving each other erroneous advice and never being where they are in one of the biggest golfing venues in the world for a Century.

I hope NO young aspiring person in any sport listens to that type of misinformed erroneous garbage. SEE A PRO!
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
It is objective but can't be drawn on paper or shown in animation.
Imho, there is some contradiction in there.

Years ago, people claimed they learned it over the phone.

Exactly.

It is the "conclusion" from putting it to paper that they 'see' as the stumbling block. Rational, reasonable, cognitive thought is just like putting it on paper. Some here have done such while others have not. My 2 ball / 2 lines mental model basically kills it as it destroys the supposed visual phenomena of "balls presenting themselves differently depending on where they are on the table".

When certain individuals "BELIEVE" false impossible claims they have left the realm of reason & THAT is why this BS has raged on for so long.

Best Wishes & Shoot Well, Joey
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
This is probably the most reasonable and well thought out post I've seen from a CTE supporter in a long time. The more I read into it, however, the more I realized that you are singing the praises of an aiming system that is NOT the controversial one that Stan teaches. You said you use your own version of CTE and play well with it. OK, that's great but what does it have to do with the argument that goes on here? Let me ask you this -- does CTESP make use of the contact point? Can you give us a short description of what CTESP involves?

In reading some of your previous posts to English and BC21 it occurred to me that you really don't understand Stan's version of CTE. You've said repeatedly that you don't fully get it and that the "magic" must happen in the pivot. I agree. The pivot step may well be what makes it work for some people, but it isn't magic. It is simply the player adjusting their stroke either while getting down on the shot or during the stroke. CTE gets you close to the pocket but the "magic" part puts it in the hole. Ever wonder why it takes months for CTE users to get it and then it all clicks? I think it is because their brain is finally figuring out how to pocket the ball with little adjustments here and there to counteract the errors introduced by the CTE instructions. So that makes CTE PRO1, specifically Stan's version of CTE, no different from any other system. It takes rote learning to learn the small adjustments needed to pocket the ball. It is a subjective process only the strong supporters here don't realize that.

I could go on and on but history says we'll continue to disagree so I'm not sure it is worth the effort. Let me just say that I don't "look for reasons it won't work" as you say. I look at the claims made by Stan and look for evidence to test those claims one way or the other. I sometimes find evidence of Stan steering the cue to make the shot and also find him making false statements. I'm not passing judgment on Stan about these things, just observing and trying to put all the data together in order to understand why it works when Stan does it. He says it's "a mystery that was never supposed to be." Well that's not a satisfying explanation for curious people.

Here's one example. Stan says that players using CTE don't have to worry about throw because CTE counteracts throw and even shooting hard or soft doesn't matter. OK, that's a pretty strong claim. Is it true? Stan was kind enough to demonstrate what he meant. In so doing he actually proved the opposite. If you follow the logic you'll see that CTE cannot work the way Stan claims. That means it works by some other means. Some say it is magic but I believe the simpler explanation: the brain is given the task of pocketing the ball and EVENTUALLY it will find a way to make that happen, or will give up trying. Of course that begs the question of why bother? It is the same process of rote learning as HAMB (hit a million balls) with the perceptions helping you get the ball in the proximity of the pocket, kind of how Poolology gets the ball close to the pocket (extremely close).

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462546

In looking at that link I see that you already responded and kind of fluffed away the observations. You made an incorrect statement that throw increases with more speed and also said you don't understand CTE and agree that you might be making subconscious adjustments. I'm lost as to what you are trying to say now.

If you were truly looking at this video objectively and dispassionately, no matter how impressed you are with Stan's passion, you have to conclude that Stan is incorrect and speed does alter the path of the ob when using CTE. If I am interpreting what is clearly happening the video incorrectly I would welcome a different interpretation.

The above ^^^

with this from Spider... "It's called an aiming system but it would be more appropriate if referred to as an ALIGNMENT METHOD with more focus on the balls and not much on the pocket.


Once the "Inaccurate Assertions" are weeded out, perhaps THEN some of what might be beneficial to some could be discussed in a civil manner & even praised.
 
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ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
dan
for rhetorical purposes lets say that everything you say is correct.
everyone has read it and can draw their own conclusions if they agree or not
why do you have to say it over and over?
everyone knows where you (and a few other guys ) are on the subject
just askin...:smile:

I could give you an earful of why, but I suspect Dan White will do so in his PM.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
After the basics; the trouble with systems are that blind devotees follow vain repetition and never rise above that to find their own creativity and best potential.The true Champion is not a carbon copy but unique...

Butch Harmon has said... I may not be able to build a Championship Golf Swing... but I know that if I am not careful... I can ruin one.

There is a certain AZB member who gives more credit to the instructors, gurus, etc. & says that without them Pros would be nothing but hacks. There are only a handful of 'instructors" that pros want & seek out. Most instructors are seeking out clients or customers.

Champions Live within themselves. They can not be produced. Others can help bring it out, but others can not produce it.

I am reminded of Rocky IV where the Russian's are using all of the high tech training & analysis & Rocky is lifting a wagon of rocks & climbing a mountain. When Drago, the Russian, starts to lose, & the Russian Official Chastises him about letting Russia down or something like that. Drago goes off & picks the Official up by the neck & screams... I fight for ME!

Naturally, Rocky wins when he Breaks Drago's spirit to get up & continue the fight. Drago gave up. Champions do NOT give up. They may be defeated, but they do NOT give up.

Detroit QB, Bobby Lane, once said, I've never lost a game... time just ran out me.

ALL Best Wishes, Sir.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
This is probably the most reasonable and well thought out post I've seen from a CTE supporter in a long time. The more I read into it, however, the more I realized that you are singing the praises of an aiming system that is NOT the controversial one that Stan teaches. You said you use your own version of CTE and play well with it. OK, that's great but what does it have to do with the argument that goes on here? Let me ask you this -- does CTESP make use of the contact point? Can you give us a short description of what CTESP involves?

In reading some of your previous posts to English and BC21 it occurred to me that you really don't understand Stan's version of CTE. You've said repeatedly that you don't fully get it and that the "magic" must happen in the pivot. I agree. The pivot step may well be what makes it work for some people, but it isn't magic. It is simply the player adjusting their stroke either while getting down on the shot or during the stroke. CTE gets you close to the pocket but the "magic" part puts it in the hole. Ever wonder why it takes months for CTE users to get it and then it all clicks? I think it is because their brain is finally figuring out how to pocket the ball with little adjustments here and there to counteract the errors introduced by the CTE instructions. So that makes CTE PRO1, specifically Stan's version of CTE, no different from any other system. It takes rote learning to learn the small adjustments needed to pocket the ball. It is a subjective process only the strong supporters here don't realize that.

I could go on and on but history says we'll continue to disagree so I'm not sure it is worth the effort. Let me just say that I don't "look for reasons it won't work" as you say. I look at the claims made by Stan and look for evidence to test those claims one way or the other. I sometimes find evidence of Stan steering the cue to make the shot and also find him making false statements. I'm not passing judgment on Stan about these things, just observing and trying to put all the data together in order to understand why it works when Stan does it. He says it's "a mystery that was never supposed to be." Well that's not a satisfying explanation for curious people.

Here's one example. Stan says that players using CTE don't have to worry about throw because CTE counteracts throw and even shooting hard or soft doesn't matter. OK, that's a pretty strong claim. Is it true? Stan was kind enough to demonstrate what he meant. In so doing he actually proved the opposite. If you follow the logic you'll see that CTE cannot work the way Stan claims. That means it works by some other means. Some say it is magic but I believe the simpler explanation: the brain is given the task of pocketing the ball and EVENTUALLY it will find a way to make that happen, or will give up trying. Of course that begs the question of why bother? It is the same process of rote learning as HAMB (hit a million balls) with the perceptions helping you get the ball in the proximity of the pocket, kind of how Poolology gets the ball close to the pocket (extremely close).

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=462546

In looking at that link I see that you already responded and kind of fluffed away the observations. You made an incorrect statement that throw increases with more speed and also said you don't understand CTE and agree that you might be making subconscious adjustments. I'm lost as to what you are trying to say now.

If you were truly looking at this video objectively and dispassionately, no matter how impressed you are with Stan's passion, you have to conclude that Stan is incorrect and speed does alter the path of the ob when using CTE. If I am interpreting what is clearly happening the video incorrectly I would welcome a different interpretation.

I forgot to give you these > Tap Tap Tap

& this > :thumbup2:
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve been around since RSB days and this is the first time I’ve really jumped in on any CTE topics so that should tell you something about how little I’m invested in this topic. Why I chose to jump in now I have no idea but I definitely regret it. I don’t think it’s possible to have a civil conversation on this topic with the history and personalities here. I wish it were.

I'm glad you did. It is possible and I hope you stick around long enough to respond to my post. You just have to ignore the trolling posts. I'd specifically like to know your take on my conclusions in that video. Some people don't like to be publicly critical of what instructors say so if you prefer pm that's fine, too.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Exactly.

It is the "conclusion" from putting it to paper that they 'see' as the stumbling block. Rational, reasonable, cognitive thought is just like putting it on paper. Some here have done such while others have not. My 2 ball / 2 lines mental model basically kills it as it destroys the supposed visual phenomena of "balls presenting themselves differently depending on where they are on the table".

When certain individuals "BELIEVE" false impossible claims they have left the realm of reason & THAT is why this BS has raged on for so long.

Best Wishes & Shoot Well, Joey

If you move to the right, changing your perspective, it's just another simple circle, and the outer edges are redefined from that perspective. If you're looking at the center of the circle, regardless of your perspective, it's always in the same place -- middle of the circle. If you imagine splitting the ball into vertical quarter slices, and then focus on the first quarter left of center, changing your perspective won't change where that vertical slice appears on the circle. It's always a circle.
Worth repeating
Seems to contradict your theory
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
It is the "conclusion" from putting it to paper that they 'see' as the stumbling block. Rational, reasonable, cognitive thought is just like putting it on paper. Some here have done such while others have not. My 2 ball / 2 lines mental model basically kills it as it destroys the supposed visual phenomena of "balls presenting themselves differently depending on where they are on the table".

When certain individuals "BELIEVE" false impossible claims they have left the realm of reason & THAT is why this BS has raged on for so long.
 
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cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is the "conclusion" from putting it to paper that they 'see' as the stumbling block. Rational, reasonable, cognitive thought is just like putting it on paper. Some here have done such while others have not. My 2 ball / 2 lines mental model basically kills it as it destroys the supposed visual phenomena of "balls presenting themselves differently depending on where they are on the table".

When certain individuals "BELIEVE" false impossible claims they have left the realm of reason & THAT is why this BS has raged on for so long.

"As we move while looking at the sphere that "edge" point is changing."

You wrote this. Contradicts what you wrote above. Care to explain. Which one is wrong
 
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