A Closer look at L.D. Shafts
- Thread starter Barioni Cues
- Start date
Yes, this sound like a good idea. I would like to get them involved for sure.
I am not sure if you read earlier in this post but I have been working with some real creditable people in physics and an engineer also off and on for the last year. You say Patrick has made a shaft that produces less squirt but is stiff. How do you know for a fact that it is stiff? What did you measure the flexibility with? Also how do you know the amount of squirt it produces? What did you measure the amount of squirt with. I have been trying different thing for almost a year now with a team of people and from our end we find these characteristics to be impossible. Its like speed and gas mileage. You can get one or another but not both. I typed some data and results this morning. It took me an hour and a half and then I must of hit the wrong button because I lost the whole thing. I was so pissed I went in the shop to finish up some cues. I am going to retype it later and post in tonight. This will or should shed some new light. I would like to talk to these guys on the phone for sure. Then you guys can post here on this thread. Talk to you soon...
Video on AZ?
Any one know if you can post a video in a thread here on AZ like you can a photo? I know you can on Face Book. This sure would be a great feature for AZ and would help show and explain your point.
Any one know if you can post a video in a thread here on AZ like you can a photo? I know you can on Face Book. This sure would be a great feature for AZ and would help show and explain your point.
I'm sorry about the lost data - I know what drugery it is to do something then to have to re-do it.
Concerning how to measure squirt without equipment, I sent Patrick a shaft to test and what he does is measure the "pivot point". The pivot point is not exact in human hands but it gives a fair idea of the relative amount of squirt produced from one shaft to another. It requires a back hand english pivot.
Here's an article on it:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/nov07.pdf
A standard shaft might have a pivot point of 10" to 12" or so, an LD shaft 17" - 20", a really low squirt shaft could be 25" - 27' or more.
In fact, your robot could be set up to accurately measure the pivot point of shafts as long as the bridge and strike angle is comparable to a human's.
As far as stiffness, he has described his shaft as stiff and he knows what he's talking about so I've not questioned it.
When I helped Tiger products with the development of the Pro X - which is like a Predator Z in dimensions, once we got a low squirt shaft that was nice and playable, I specifically asked them to beef up the wood so the taper was steeper than 1mm. They did that for me and my shafts are plenty stiff - are low squirt and play great. Patrick measured the pivot at around 25" if I recall.
Tiger ended up easing off on my thicker taper because some players complained about the visual and the feel of the steep taper in the bridge hand.
Probably best to just link to the You Tube video.
I think I used a simpler method that's probably not quite as accurate as the pivot method (but good enough for comparisons). Dr. Dave has instructions for the pivot method on his "squirt resources" page.
I think a shooting jig like John uses is more accurate and consistent than either if those methods, if done without an object ball.
pj
chgo
Good. Have him/them give me a call, and we can talk peer to peer. It should take 30 minutes.
Freddie
About Shaft Wood
About Shaft Wood,
I hate to stereo type LD Shafts, Pro Taper Shafts, Conical or European Taper Shaft or Regular Shafts.
When comparing one of these shafts to another remember that no two shafts are exactly the same.
They all have their own characteristics even if they are the same weight, same taper, same length, same diameter. Each shaft is like a finger print. The growth rings are different and spaced different. The shaft might have been cut from the heart of the log instead of the out side of the log. If it was cut from the heart of the log the tree grows faster at first so the growth rings will be less and spaced further apart. This will produce a more flexible shaft. It is possible that a stiffer tapered shaft like a European taper that was maid from the heart wood with few growth rings will be more flexible than a pro taper design with many growth rings made from the out side of the log. The taper that is cut into a shaft has a lot to do with how flexible the shaft will be. The density, amount of growth rings, space in between the growth rings, the length of the shaft, radial consistency, and the diameter of the shaft all play a part in how flexible the shaft will be. It is also worth mentioning that one shaft might be more flexible 12" back from the tip than another but less flexible over the entire length of the shaft. The most flexible part of the shaft is where the shaft wants to buckle and bend and is the natural flex point or natural pivot point. Every shaft has a different weak spot or pivot point. This shaft will perform its best if your bridge hand is behind this point. Putting your bridge hand in front of this point will cause more cue ball squirt and also make the shaft play stiffer. Therefore when building a shaft that is fine tuned to a player it is good to know the bridge length he uses most of the time. Nine ball players usually have a longer bridge than straight pool players and one pocket players. The length of a bridge usually corresponds to the height of a pool player. A seven foot tall guy will have a bigger wing span and will need a longer cue and have a longer bridge length other wise he will be all cramped up over the shot. Just the opposite for a shorter guy. When people ask me what test better, a Predator or a OB-1, I tell them it depends on the individual shaft. One OB shaft might test better than a Predator and then the next OB shaft might test worse. LD shafts have a lot of hype. It is very possible for a European tapered shaft to test better or have less squirt than a LD shaft. All though this is rare it is possible. For it to be possible the European tapered shaft will have to have a smaller tip diameter, a shorter, lighter ferrule and tip. It will also need to have less growth rings and spaced further apart. European tapered shaft don't have a lot of flex in the middle of the shaft or a natural pivot point. The weakest point of the shaft is close to the tip but because of laws of leverage it doesn't do a whole lot of flexing as compared to a pro taper or long taper found on most LD shafts. This is why European tapered shaft play so stiff. Also something I want to mention is LD (low deflection) is a bit confusing and misleading. LD shafts have more deflection but less cue ball deflection. In my opinion they should change the terminology to LS Shafts for Low Squirt. So what I am trying to say is a LD shaft as we know it is a high deflection low squirt shaft. Remember not all so called LD Shafts are low squirt. They all test different.
I want to discuss a bit on what we test for. We first test for the amount of squirt. Then we test for the amount of flex. We test where the flex point is and also the amount of power. We also test for control which is a factor that can't be over looked. Some shafts might have more brute power but have a lot of squirt to go with it. While other shafts might have low squirt but lack in power. As a shaft gets more flexible it looses power and makes it harder to control. When I speak of control I am talking about how difficult it is to control the amount of speed and spin. On the other hand to stiff you have high power, high squirt, and if it was not for the high squirt I would say better control of the cue ball. From my tests and experiments I have found it is easier to control the amount of spin and speed with a stiffer shaft. If is wasn't for the high squirt I would be all for a stiff shaft. Some of you might say just stay closer to center ball and play the angles. Well I do, do that but with out the squirt. The problem is when you try to hit center ball but put unintentional english on the ball. Now your not compensating for the squirt because you did not intend on hitting the cue ball off center. On a tight pocket table this means rattling the ball or missing the shot completely. My studies show that the less squirt you have to deal with the more accurate you will be and the more games you will win. For me it is much easier to control the speed and spin with a flexible shaft than to guess and compensate for different amounts of squirt at different lengths, distances and speeds with a stiff shaft. One thing I want to mention is my tuned shaft are not flexible or stiff. I only make them flexible enough to take out all the squirt possible and preserve the power and control. For me I want the least amount of squirt with the most power and control. I know there is a lot of you that are stuck on thinking a stiff shaft produces less squirt. I will try to post some of the videos proving this is not so when I get some time. I will post the links here. We have tested around 800 shafts now. The lowest measurement of squirt for the speed, distance, and off center hit on the cue ball that my Cue Dyno (aka robot) was set for was 5/8". The highest amount of squirt measured was 5 1/4".
About Shaft Wood,
I hate to stereo type LD Shafts, Pro Taper Shafts, Conical or European Taper Shaft or Regular Shafts.
When comparing one of these shafts to another remember that no two shafts are exactly the same.
They all have their own characteristics even if they are the same weight, same taper, same length, same diameter. Each shaft is like a finger print. The growth rings are different and spaced different. The shaft might have been cut from the heart of the log instead of the out side of the log. If it was cut from the heart of the log the tree grows faster at first so the growth rings will be less and spaced further apart. This will produce a more flexible shaft. It is possible that a stiffer tapered shaft like a European taper that was maid from the heart wood with few growth rings will be more flexible than a pro taper design with many growth rings made from the out side of the log. The taper that is cut into a shaft has a lot to do with how flexible the shaft will be. The density, amount of growth rings, space in between the growth rings, the length of the shaft, radial consistency, and the diameter of the shaft all play a part in how flexible the shaft will be. It is also worth mentioning that one shaft might be more flexible 12" back from the tip than another but less flexible over the entire length of the shaft. The most flexible part of the shaft is where the shaft wants to buckle and bend and is the natural flex point or natural pivot point. Every shaft has a different weak spot or pivot point. This shaft will perform its best if your bridge hand is behind this point. Putting your bridge hand in front of this point will cause more cue ball squirt and also make the shaft play stiffer. Therefore when building a shaft that is fine tuned to a player it is good to know the bridge length he uses most of the time. Nine ball players usually have a longer bridge than straight pool players and one pocket players. The length of a bridge usually corresponds to the height of a pool player. A seven foot tall guy will have a bigger wing span and will need a longer cue and have a longer bridge length other wise he will be all cramped up over the shot. Just the opposite for a shorter guy. When people ask me what test better, a Predator or a OB-1, I tell them it depends on the individual shaft. One OB shaft might test better than a Predator and then the next OB shaft might test worse. LD shafts have a lot of hype. It is very possible for a European tapered shaft to test better or have less squirt than a LD shaft. All though this is rare it is possible. For it to be possible the European tapered shaft will have to have a smaller tip diameter, a shorter, lighter ferrule and tip. It will also need to have less growth rings and spaced further apart. European tapered shaft don't have a lot of flex in the middle of the shaft or a natural pivot point. The weakest point of the shaft is close to the tip but because of laws of leverage it doesn't do a whole lot of flexing as compared to a pro taper or long taper found on most LD shafts. This is why European tapered shaft play so stiff. Also something I want to mention is LD (low deflection) is a bit confusing and misleading. LD shafts have more deflection but less cue ball deflection. In my opinion they should change the terminology to LS Shafts for Low Squirt. So what I am trying to say is a LD shaft as we know it is a high deflection low squirt shaft. Remember not all so called LD Shafts are low squirt. They all test different.
I want to discuss a bit on what we test for. We first test for the amount of squirt. Then we test for the amount of flex. We test where the flex point is and also the amount of power. We also test for control which is a factor that can't be over looked. Some shafts might have more brute power but have a lot of squirt to go with it. While other shafts might have low squirt but lack in power. As a shaft gets more flexible it looses power and makes it harder to control. When I speak of control I am talking about how difficult it is to control the amount of speed and spin. On the other hand to stiff you have high power, high squirt, and if it was not for the high squirt I would say better control of the cue ball. From my tests and experiments I have found it is easier to control the amount of spin and speed with a stiffer shaft. If is wasn't for the high squirt I would be all for a stiff shaft. Some of you might say just stay closer to center ball and play the angles. Well I do, do that but with out the squirt. The problem is when you try to hit center ball but put unintentional english on the ball. Now your not compensating for the squirt because you did not intend on hitting the cue ball off center. On a tight pocket table this means rattling the ball or missing the shot completely. My studies show that the less squirt you have to deal with the more accurate you will be and the more games you will win. For me it is much easier to control the speed and spin with a flexible shaft than to guess and compensate for different amounts of squirt at different lengths, distances and speeds with a stiff shaft. One thing I want to mention is my tuned shaft are not flexible or stiff. I only make them flexible enough to take out all the squirt possible and preserve the power and control. For me I want the least amount of squirt with the most power and control. I know there is a lot of you that are stuck on thinking a stiff shaft produces less squirt. I will try to post some of the videos proving this is not so when I get some time. I will post the links here. We have tested around 800 shafts now. The lowest measurement of squirt for the speed, distance, and off center hit on the cue ball that my Cue Dyno (aka robot) was set for was 5/8". The highest amount of squirt measured was 5 1/4".
I just watched the first cue being tested and had an observation. The way you are testing will tell you which cue deflects more, but it will not tell you the correct amount of deflection. After shooting the center ball test shot, you would have to move the machine to create a shot that shows the actual amount of deflection, not the ball. When you move the ball, a center ball shot would not hit the same area as it did before, it would hit as far to the left as you moved the cue ball, thus any deflection you noticed with the next shot would have to have the amount the cue ball was moved from the start subtracted from the total to give you the correct deflection. You stated that a break shot would miss the one ball by the amount you had measured, but more correctly it would be the amount measured minus the amount you moved the cue ball from the original spot. Still looks like valuable info though. Not sure if anyone else has pointed this out already. If so, sorry to beat a dead horse.
I think there is a wealth of info in this thread already. I would suggest a short summary. Could you please take the major characteristics: tip size, taper, shaft flexibility, tip hardness, tip diameter, etc and simply say which versions of each produce the least amount of deflection, and the drawbacks of having these characteristics. I know that would take a little time, but should be very valuable overall, and would allow people to weigh the advantages and disadvantages and better decide what they want in a cue. Thanks for all the work thus far. This type of stuff is how advancements in technology happen.
P.S. If you have a lot difficulty typing, the new ipads have dictation ability that works well, windows 7 has a built in dictation software that works quite well, and dragon's dictation software works well. These things can save a lot of time for a slow typist.
P.S. If you have a lot difficulty typing, the new ipads have dictation ability that works well, windows 7 has a built in dictation software that works quite well, and dragon's dictation software works well. These things can save a lot of time for a slow typist.
He is well aware of that. Please watch the video from 14:45 to the end and you'll see he makes that adjustment.
That's funny. I watched until 14:00 over my lunch. Guess I should have watched a few more minutes.
Every cue will have some amount of squirt. There will never be a zero-squirt cue. There is nothing wrong with squirt as long as you know where the natural pivot point of the cue is located, and know how to adjust for the squirt.
In fact, I have argued for some time that the best case is where the cue has enough squirt so that the natural pivot point of the cue falls at a distance that is close to your most common bridge length. In this situation, squirt can be compensated for with back hand english, pivoting on the bridge hand.
I also think there is such a thing as too little quirt. An LD shaft with a natural pivot point distance of 27 inches would be undesirable, IMO.
You would need to employ a combination of back hand English and forehand English to compensate for the squirt, and that would be very difficult to be consistent with.
In fact, I have argued for some time that the best case is where the cue has enough squirt so that the natural pivot point of the cue falls at a distance that is close to your most common bridge length. In this situation, squirt can be compensated for with back hand english, pivoting on the bridge hand.
I also think there is such a thing as too little quirt. An LD shaft with a natural pivot point distance of 27 inches would be undesirable, IMO.
You would need to employ a combination of back hand English and forehand English to compensate for the squirt, and that would be very difficult to be consistent with.
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Barioni cues, when you say, "the better the chalk, the more friction. The more friction the more the cue ball at a slow speed wants to deviate off the tangent line." maybe the better the chalk, then sometimes added friction or skid, which is unwanted. Also like CJ says shot speed is so important because of this factor. Too soft of a shot will produce unwanted skid.
certain words are not being used proper
The word friction is the wrong word to be used in this test.
All friction is caused by resistence.........................................................
All pressure is caused by resistence........................................................
And thats a fact, Merry Christmas All
The faster I want to go the harder I have to pedal.
MMike
The word friction is the wrong word to be used in this test.
All friction is caused by resistence.........................................................
All pressure is caused by resistence........................................................
And thats a fact, Merry Christmas All
The faster I want to go the harder I have to pedal.
MMike
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The word friction is the wrong word to be used in this test.
All friction is caused by resistence.........................................................
All pressure is caused by resistence........................................................
And thats a fact, Merry Christmas All
The faster I want go the harder I have to pedal.
MMike
If he's referencing the contact with the cue ball, I think grip would be the correct term unless there is a fancier scientific term. However, maybe gripping the cueball (to spin it) causes more friction between the cueball and the cloth....
Traction, Grip , Friction, Drag, and pressure are all products of resistence.
if you take resistence out you cannot have any of the above,
just facts.
Merry Christmas All
MMike