A Closer look at L.D. Shafts

Barioni Cues

Custom Cue Builder
Silver Member

As some of you know, we are getting close to completion on our study and experiments regarding Low Deflection Shafts. Countless hours of robotic testing and trial and error have shed new light on the subject. Some myths that have puzzled us all for years have now been resolved and can be proven, such as:
 What deflects less, a nickel radius or a dime?
 What produces more cue ball deflection or squirt, A flexible shaft or a stiff shaft.
 Pro’s and Con’s, 11mm vs.14mm.
 What chalk offers the best grip and has the least amount of miscues.
 What drilling or hollowing out the shaft really does.
The pics show one of our experiments regarding flexible shafts and also different fulcrum points. The grooves were made to weaken the shaft to allow it to bend at those points. They were made one at a time and then tested in the robot to see if it made it better or worse. More in depth details and videos can be found on our website soon for those who would like to know or see the testing results. This was done in a Myth Busters approach with the focus and intent to make the least deflecting shaft.
 

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This is something I've been wanting to see for a long time. IMO the exact point of contact on the cue ball has much more effect on the amount of cue ball deflection (squirt) realized, than does the type of shaft used.

Will your tests show comparative results between 2-o'clock & 3-o'clock, and 9-o'clock & 10-o'clock contact points?

Roger
 
After watching your video, I have a couple of observations that I hope will be helpful:

1. To calculate the shaft's "pivot length" two distances are needed:

A. The actual distance from centerball that the tip is contacting the cue ball (in inches or millimeters, not in "tips"). This can be roughly estimated from the 1/2" that the cue ball is moved to the side, but it varies a little with tip curvature, so measuring the actual chalk mark on the cue ball is best (assuming you use a marked cue ball oriented the same way each time). To get the same tip offset, it would be a good idea to shape each tip to the same curvature just before testing.

B. The distance the cue ball travels before hitting the board (distance from front of cue ball to board).

In case you're interested, this chart shows the "pivot length" of the shafts you tested based on some assumptions about the actual tip offset and target distance. You can see that tip offset makes the biggest difference, but they both matter:

Barioni Test.jpg

2. Since the robot shoots with a slightly elevated butt, swerve is a factor, so it's important that each test be shot at exactly the same speed (preferably high speed so the amount of squirt won't be reduced by swerve). You demonstrate this by showing that multiple shots with the same shaft produce the same results, but it might be helpful to point this out.

Thanks for going to the trouble to conduct these tests and to make your live video available!

pj
chgo
 
Very interesting, and I can't wait to see more. I REALLY can't wait to see the tests with different chalks. Maybe we'll finally have some scientific evidence whether or not a $30 cube of chalk is truly better or complete hokum.
 
There is a difference between product testing and scientific testing.

This is product testing in that all it shows is the difference's in performance of the different cues under the same test parameters. Product testing does not always reflect actual real world operating conditions. Such is the case in this testing.

Scientific testing would take into consideration all the variables that are encountered in the real world of shot making and not just one set of testing parameters.

Doing test at only one speed does not reflect what happens at various speeds that is used in shot making. In 14.1, slow rolls are key, yet, the testing here does not include these slow rolls.

What about bridge length? The distance from the bridge pivot and the cue ball. In this test, the same length is used unlike in the real world of shot making where the same bridge length can not always be used.

The result of this marketing is a person will buy a LD shaft thinking they need one, when in reality, they are just shooting too hard, are trying to do too much on a shot with a cue ball.

I've been playing a new player that got a LD shaft cue and is so proud of it. He can talk the lingo, but he is clueless about the real facts behind shot making. Instead of understanding the ins and outs of shot making, he bought into the hype of needing a LD shaft because of per marketing.

I find the biggest weakness of players is lack of knowing just how much speed is needed to do a shot. I notice most shoot harder than needed for the shot or not understanding how to make the CB work for you. So, they get a LD shaft thinking that's the answer and it might be for a short time only. No matter what shaft you use,until you master your speed control, you will only go so far.

And the only way to master speed control is table time and not equipment used.

Most on here will never get the level of feel needed to truly know what is going on between the CB and cue tip.
 
This is something I've been wanting to see for a long time. IMO the exact point of contact on the cue ball has much more effect on the amount of cue ball deflection (squirt) realized, than does the type of shaft used.

Will your tests show comparative results between 2-o'clock & 3-o'clock, and 9-o'clock & 10-o'clock contact points?

Roger

Mr. Long,

I almost never hit the CB on the horizontal axis @ 3:00 or 9:00. That 'habit' was developed over 45 yrs. ago without any conscious knowledge of deflection/squirt. I had no conscious reason as to why not, but it was developed over trial & error. The 3:00 is farther off of the vertical axis than 1:00 or 4:00 & have different spin properties in play. I do not know if they did a comparison, but if so there will certainly be a
differential.

Best Regards,
 
Duckie,

This may not be full-blown scientific testing, but I think this is an interesting product testing venture. Nobody else has tried something on this magnitude since the Meucci Black Dot vs. Predator 314 days. Hopefully some really good data will be gathered and some questions will be answered.

I will say that I'm not crazy about the fact that the very first video shows Barioni's own shaft to be the least deflecting. It unfortunately calls into question whether or not these tests are being done to answer some questions or to conveniently show his products are "best".
 
John,

I don't know if you remember our very long phone call, but I'm glad to see you posting this. This should really help to answer some questions we all have.

When do you plan on loading the videos?
 
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Mr. Long,

I almost never hit the CB on the horizontal axis @ 3:00 or 9:00. That 'habit' was developed over 45 yrs. ago without any conscious knowledge of deflection/squirt. I had no conscious reason as to why not, but it was developed over trial & error. The 3:00 is farther off of the vertical axis than 1:00 or 4:00 & have different spin properties in play. I do not know if they did a comparison, but if so there will certainly be a
differential.

Best Regards,

Rick:

That's my point in asking if comparisons will be made between horizontal axix hits, and hits with side spin above the horizontal axis.

I don't have a robot, but when I tested standard shafts against LD shafts using my own two arms and hands, I found that cue ball deflection is almost entirely eliminated when hitting above the horizontal axis no matter which type of shaft I used. But when I hit the ball right on the horizontal axis with english, cue ball deflection appeared with both shafts. Interestingly enough, the difference in amount of deflection between the two shafts was not as great as I had been told to expect.

What I think happens when you hit the ball on the horizontal axis (or below), is that it sends the ball off sliding (or back-spinning) which creates a friction drag, which then causes the tip to "force" the ball off to the side. But if the ball is hit above the horizontal axis, it is started off rolling, which greatly reduces the friction between ball and cloth, and sends it on a (for all practical purposes) straight line.

Now, as you said, you almost NEVER hit the ball on the horizontal axis. Same here. I also think all experienced players hit it that same way. My personal estimation is that at least 80% of all shots in normal games of pool are hit above the horzontal axis. That's because the cue ball is normally moved around the table by rolling it around the table - not sliding or back-spinning it. And, as I said before, hitting above the horizontal axis is where deflection ("squirt") is practly non-existent.

My feeling is that robotic tests can be conducted to show either a lot of deflection, or very little deflection, or almost no deflection, based upon the tip height dialed into the robot.

Roger
 
Rick:

I found that cue ball deflection is almost entirely eliminated when hitting above the horizontal axis no matter which type of shaft I used.

But if the ball is hit above the horizontal axis, it is started off rolling, which greatly reduces the friction between ball and cloth, and sends it on a (for all practical purposes) straight line.

My personal estimation is that at least 80% of all shots in normal games of pool are hit above the horzontal axis. That's because the cue ball is normally moved around the table by rolling it around the table - not sliding or back-spinning it. And, as I said before, hitting above the horizontal axis is where deflection ("squirt") is practly non-existent.

Roger

Mr. Long,

From my experience, I tend to agree with you regarding hitting above the horizonal axis at say 1:15 or 10:45. The ball obviously rolls sooner than with mid or low & with the diagonal spin 'moves' to that side a bit & can offset or even overcome the deflection depending on the speed.

When I was a teenager, my father sort of wanted to show me off to my Mother's Brother, who was a very good player. We played a few games & my father asked him what he thought. He answered, "He shoots fine, real good. He just uses low english too much." That was food to my hungry ears. I quickly learned to use more top/side to get position & my tool box began to get loaded up.

Best regards,
 
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purchasing

Duckie

While I agree with your statement that speed control is a big factor in cue success, I disagree with your generalizations of why people purchase LD shafts.

I do not buy LD shafts (and I do know that they should be called Low Squirt shafts) for the speed control.

I buy a range of products and try them out and resell the ones I don't like and use the ones I do like.

Someone looking for a new cue may buy based upon reseller recommendations or they may buy on feel/happiness alone. Neither option is wrong, but neither option is guaranteed to get them the best performing system.

Someone wanting to buy a snowplow for their pickup needs to evaluate their anticipated use. If they are going to move snow alot, they probably should buy a boss v plow for $9,000 if they can afford it. Someone planning to move snow on their residential driveway may want to buy a $1,500.00 sears home plow. It would be difficult and pointless for me or you to critique their purchase.

I do laugh when I see people decked out in the best ski gear that can barely ride the chairlift, but they put the amount of money into their ski activities as they wanted to and they are happy. A regular skier may benefit from an equipment upgrade if they are using the old thin skis. Technology in skis changed. If you want to ski around in old thin skis, nobody is stopping you. Does anybody need to know why they ski better on the new wide skis? Probably not. Are the new skis so good that you can drink coffee and read the paper while you ski? No.

While I may be the exception to the rule, I prefer to try many different brands and styles and make my own choice. I have the money to do this. Many of my friends buy one cue and never think twice about their cue selection, and many think and wonder if there is something better out there. Is there a cue out there that solves all of the world's problems? No. However, my Capone cue with OB Classic shaft is as close to perfect as I've seen. I can tell you that the OB Classic plays completely different than my standard Capone shafts. Same stroke, same hit style, same rythym, different result. I could play decent with either one, but the OB Classic is what I'm used to and what feels right.

Golf and billiards are two sports where you can work with an old system (house cues and old steel shafts/driver heads come to mind) or advanced engineered systems (I hit my first 300 yard drive with a taylormade R7 and I would not have sold that driver for any amount of money at the time, but now I wonder if the bowling ball size driver heads out now are better. Now I don't golf enough due to back problems to care. I continue to shoot decent pool with my high performance cues and shafts and I'm happy.

I'm interested in the physics enough to buy a barioni tuned shaft on a new cue. I am not doing it because I think it will straigten out my elbow or perfect my stroke speed, I'm interested because it may be a better idea. It could fail miserably or be cue bliss. Either way, I'm not going to tell someone they need to use a barioni cue to hit better. I will however tell them why I purchased the cue and let them try for themselves.

Some people like to stick with their old skinny skis, and some like to venture out and see what the world has to offer. I have no problem with either type of person. I'm not saying that LS shafts are the fat skis of the billiard world, but they are an engineered system that is designed to perform better than wood.

I'm a building contractor that understands the performance of my building systems. You can build a house with standard 2x6 lumber, but it will not be as straight or strong (generalizing and simplifying here) as manufactured wood or steel studs. Will I build you a building with 2x6 lumber? Sure. Would it be better if built with other materials? Sure. Manufactured lumber and manufactured shafts are very similar. They are both built better than most natural shapes.

I believe it is wrong to generalize cue buyers based upon one guy you know. Many may be intelligent shoppers. I also disagree with people that bash other ideas and systems based on their own biased points of view.

I'll stop now.


There is a difference between product testing and scientific testing.

This is product testing in that all it shows is the difference's in performance of the different cues under the same test parameters. Product testing does not always reflect actual real world operating conditions. Such is the case in this testing.

Scientific testing would take into consideration all the variables that are encountered in the real world of shot making and not just one set of testing parameters.

Doing test at only one speed does not reflect what happens at various speeds that is used in shot making. In 14.1, slow rolls are key, yet, the testing here does not include these slow rolls.

What about bridge length? The distance from the bridge pivot and the cue ball. In this test, the same length is used unlike in the real world of shot making where the same bridge length can not always be used.

The result of this marketing is a person will buy a LD shaft thinking they need one, when in reality, they are just shooting too hard, are trying to do too much on a shot with a cue ball.

I've been playing a new player that got a LD shaft cue and is so proud of it. He can talk the lingo, but he is clueless about the real facts behind shot making. Instead of understanding the ins and outs of shot making, he bought into the hype of needing a LD shaft because of per marketing.

I find the biggest weakness of players is lack of knowing just how much speed is needed to do a shot. I notice most shoot harder than needed for the shot or not understanding how to make the CB work for you. So, they get a LD shaft thinking that's the answer and it might be for a short time only. No matter what shaft you use,until you master your speed control, you will only go so far.

And the only way to master speed control is table time and not equipment used.

Most on here will never get the level of feel needed to truly know what is going on between the CB and cue tip.
 

As some of you know, we are getting close to completion on our study and experiments regarding Low Deflection Shafts. Countless hours of robotic testing and trial and error have shed new light on the subject. Some myths that have puzzled us all for years have now been resolved and can be proven, such as:
 What deflects less, a nickel radius or a dime?
 What produces more cue ball deflection or squirt, A flexible shaft or a stiff shaft.
 Pro’s and Con’s, 11mm vs.14mm.
 What chalk offers the best grip and has the least amount of miscues.
 What drilling or hollowing out the shaft really does.
The pics show one of our experiments regarding flexible shafts and also different fulcrum points. The grooves were made to weaken the shaft to allow it to bend at those points. They were made one at a time and then tested in the robot to see if it made it better or worse. More in depth details and videos can be found on our website soon for those who would like to know or see the testing results. This was done in a Myth Busters approach with the focus and intent to make the least deflecting shaft.

I already see an obvious engineering flaw which I told you about early i your study. The fact that you ignored it negates all of your hard study. That's unfortunate. Your competitors actually paid attention .

Freddie
 
question

Does it matter to the shaft where you hit the ball? The exercise appears to compare shaft versus shaft. That should allow a point-point comparison between shafts, no? If you want to guage squirt/deflection for different high/low/left/right hits, that is an interesting experiment, but maybe not relavent to the OP's exercise.


This is something I've been wanting to see for a long time. IMO the exact point of contact on the cue ball has much more effect on the amount of cue ball deflection (squirt) realized, than does the type of shaft used.

Will your tests show comparative results between 2-o'clock & 3-o'clock, and 9-o'clock & 10-o'clock contact points?

Roger
 
This is product testing in that all it shows is the difference's in performance of the different cues under the same test parameters.
That's all it's intended to show - that's the purpose of the test. It's valid for that purpose, and the information it reveals is valuable for comparing cues.

pj
chgo
 
I already see an obvious engineering flaw which I told you about early i your study. The fact that you ignored it negates all of your hard study. That's unfortunate. Your competitors actually paid attention .

Freddie
Curious - what flaw, Fred...?

pj
chgo
 
Does it matter to the shaft where you hit the ball? The exercise appears to compare shaft versus shaft. That should allow a point-point comparison between shafts, no? If you want to guage squirt/deflection for different high/low/left/right hits, that is an interesting experiment, but maybe not relavent to the OP's exercise.

No, it matters to the ball where the shaft hits it. What's the point in showing how much, or how little, the ball is deflected when hit in a spot that is used only 20% of the time? Plus, when hitting in that 20% spot, the difference between the highest deflecting shaft and the lowest deflecting shaft is only about 25% which means that you have to adjust for deflection with either shaft you use.

Why not conduct some tests that would demonstrate how little a concern deflection is when playing pool the normal way, whether you use a standard shaft, a "low-deflection" shaft, or the proverbial broom stick?

I think some of us already know the answer to that question.

Roger
 
LD Shaft Experiment

It seems to me that the experiment (or exercise if you prefer) should be set up to use the most extreme squirt for a reasonable english orientation (1 tip high, one tip side? Maybe it should be 2 tips of side?) As long as it you are using a spot that gives you repeatable english I doubt it matters to the OP's exercise (with the caveat that the same spot must be used for all shafts). Based upon the results of one experiment using one contact point, can't the results of another contact point (shaft to shaft comparison again) be interpolated?

I'm guessing by your post that you disagree with the use of english (or maybe specific english shots), and therefore LD shafts. I'm interested in your (and anyone else's) thoughts on this, so I'll pose a question in another thread to avoid highjacking this one.


No, it matters to the ball where the shaft hits it. What's the point in showing how much, or how little, the ball is deflected when hit in a spot that is used only 20% of the time? Plus, when hitting in that 20% spot, the difference between the highest deflecting shaft and the lowest deflecting shaft is only about 25% which means that you have to adjust for deflection with either shaft you use.

Why not conduct some tests that would demonstrate how little a concern deflection is when playing pool the normal way, whether you use a standard shaft, a "low-deflection" shaft, or the proverbial broom stick?

I think some of us already know the answer to that question.

Roger
 
I already see an obvious engineering flaw which I told you about early i your study. The fact that you ignored it negates all of your hard study. That's unfortunate. Your competitors actually paid attention .

Freddie

When Freddie talks engineering people should listen.

Not kidding.

But FWIW I am fascinated by any such attempts to bring clarity to marketing claims. I would like to see these tests done with every imaginable parameter and variable accounted for. For example does the tip type matter and if so how much? Does the chalk matter and how much? Does the speed matter? Cloth? The type of ball, the cleanliness of the ball, the size and weight of the ball?

I would like to see actual shots and see the cues turned to see if they deflect differently when turned. In short what I want to see is DETAILS and more details. Since there is a robot/jig then it should be able to show whether or not a shaft can generate more spin as has been claimed by some.

With the proper engineering consultation as offered by Freddie above I don't see why such a set up can't be used to "Myth-Bust" just about any every performance claim made by any cue maker/chalk maker/ferrule maker etc... It would be really nice to have both video and actual data.
 
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When people say ''scientific tests'',first you need a actual
scientist in this field if were going to go with such professional
data.
C'mon,this test will give alot of answers that some are curious about,
without the naysayers tring to find his flaws.
People that play with LD shafts understand already how it works
but Mr Barioni's tests are to show why and the steps to get there.
 
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I already see an obvious engineering flaw which I told you about early i your study. The fact that you ignored it negates all of your hard study. That's unfortunate. Your competitors actually paid attention .

Freddie

Fred, please substantiate your claim.
 
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