A couple of thoughts on "aiming" to make a shot

BillPorter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Threads on aiming systems tend to generate a lot of heat, but not much light. Proponents and teachers of aiming systems can't always explain them in terms that make sense from strictly geometric or engineering points of view, but point out that the systems "work" for many, many players. Some of those opposed to aiming systems, let's call them "feel" players, insist that regardless of what system you are using to aim, you are always making unconscious adjustments to either side of the few fixed "aim points," and so you are really aiming by feel or estimation after all. There are surely valid points to be made for both sides of this issue - there seems to be no doubt that the aiming systems have improved the ball pocketing ability of many, many students. On the other hand, there is equally little doubt that the physical realities of pool tables and pool balls do not allow all pool shots to be made by using only a small number of contact points on the OB. Reading through some of the recent posts on this topic, it seems to me that the level of miscommunication which occurs must be due, at least in part, to the emotional involvement of the posters. Some of them angry, some defensive, and some with hard to label irrationalities (grin here). I truly have no stake in either side of the argument, but have found myself thinking about the issues involved. (I'm retired, so I can afford to "waste" a few hours here and there.) Let me share two thoughts I have on the topic.

First, from my long career in academic psychology, I am confident that human beings often are unaware of significant aspects of their behavior. With reference to the aiming issues, what I mean is that while a player may say that they lining balls up this way or using their cue tip to aim that way or sighting down their shaft to aim in some other way, they may have little or no idea about what information (including both visual and proprioceptive feedback) their brains are actually using to pocket a ball. For example, I know of a strong player who steadfastly denies that English causes the OB to throw one way or the other. He is convinced that he hits the OB in exactly the same spot to pocket it regardless of the English he applies to the cue ball. Now we know that the physics of throw demands slightly different contact points to pocket a ball depending on side spin applied to the cue ball, so this strong player may believe he is always hitting the same contact point, but he must be unconsciously correcting for throw nonetheless. Now do you see the futility of arguing with him? To argue with him about this would be like saying, "You are unconsciously correcting for throw." To which he might reply, "No I?m not! I?m not correcting at all." "But your correction is UNCONSCIOUS," I reply. "I'm aware of no such correction," he says. "Of course you aren't. It is UNCONSCIOUS," I scream. And so forth.

Second, I believe part of the reason for the never ending discussions of ?aiming? is an inherent fallacy in the term "aiming" as it applies to pool. When you aim a pistol, there is a perfectly clear, unambiguous VISUAL IMAGE you are striving to achieve. Here's a short description of that image:

The front sight is aligned in the notch of the rear sight such that the top of the front sight is level with the top of the rear sight. The gap between the sides of the front sight and the left and right sides of the rear sight notch are equal. When all set, maintain your focus on the front sight and bring your weapon to bear on the target. You should see the sharply focused front sight touching the bottom of the blurry, unfocused bullseye.

There is no equivalent visual image to be achieved on the pool table. "Aiming" in pool is a combination of visual and proprioceptive (bodily) information and therefore very difficult to reduce to a simple, verbal description. But attempts to do so, such as the various aiming systems in pool, may well give the player confidence that he is successfully preparing to pocket a ball, and we all know how powerful confidence can be on the pool table.

In no way do I believe I have somehow settled the debate over aiming systems by posting these thoughts. I simply wanted to share them with you.
 
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BillPorter said:
[...] ?You are unconsciously correcting for throw.? To which he might reply, ?No I?m not! I?m not correcting at all.? ?But your correction is UNCONSCIOUS,? I reply. ?I?m aware of no such correction,? he says. ?Of course you aren?t. It is UNCONSCIOUS,? I scream. And so forth.

[...]


lol. Reminds me of a funny line I heard at the poolhall the other night.

player 1: "It's subconscious."

player2: "No no no. It's a SPECIAL KIND of subconscious. It's like you're thinking about, but you're not even aware you're thinking about it. Weird!"
 
Not sure I agree with all of that Bill. Here are a couple of thoughts for you.

A pistol shooter sets his feet, hips, and controls his breathing. In addition he must become aware of his trigger finger and of course must line up his eye with the rear and front site. All of these things are involved in ?aiming.?

A pool player too must consider all of these things to play well. I think one of the primary aspects of aiming is learning to position oneself over the cue stick much like siting a pistol. In addition the poolplayer has to consider stroke and the effects of English, throw, deflection, etc when aiming. This is in some sense comparable to wind, humidity and load when pistol shooting.

The contact points (CB and OB) are no where near as obvious as the site and target are for the pistol shooter. None-the-less each has to ?aim? one thing at another.

Because one does not have a clearly defined target or projectile does not mean that one is not aiming. I think it is a different types of aiming that must consider much more variance in the system and more tolerance for the line of aim on the pool table.

Because it is difficult to aim, players attempt to devise systems that will assist with the process. Unfortunately they are not very good at defining their methods with regard to just what it is that is reliable and this is what adds to the confusion. We get a lot of ?hold your mouth this way to drive a nail,? types of presentations.

Apparently Houle has developed some aim points that can be used in many situations. It would appear that he differentiates between aim point and contact point and may have learned that contact points change though one ?aims? at the same edge (or portion) of the OB. In addition he has apparently used this information to use the cue tip and defined quarters of the CB / OB relation to assist in simplifying the process.

All in all it sounds like a reasonable system that can be used in some situations. Joe V has taken another approach with his clock face on the CB and attempting to help the player think in terms of distance from center (adjusted for distance to the OB) to determine tangent and off tangent lines of aim. This too is an elegant system that helps with aiming and positioning the CB.

I agree that many people, apparently some instructors as well have a difficult time articulating their methods but they do indeed have methods that assist with aiming.

Sub and unconscious processes are part of everything that we do. Some people are more or less aware of how much control they can, and or, are willing to turn over to these semi-automated processes.


PS Player two above gives a fairly good definition of the unconscious. People know more than they think know though they may not articulate it well. (in contradiction to some prior posts).

BTW, retirement is grand -- I love it and don't know how I ever had time to work. No time to correct grammar right now -- off to dinner and a pool match with friends.
 
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BillPorter said:
Threads on aiming systems tend to generate a lot of heat, but not much light. Proponents and teachers of aiming systems can?t always explain them in terms that make sense from strictly geometric or engineering points of view, but point out that the systems ?work? for many, many players.....
Very nice summary, but a minor point to pick.

I don't think that proprioception is, strictly speaking, a part of aiming. While it is essential to getting the cueball to the target, it doesn't really provide the target. The latter is obtained through vision as well as experience/judgement for "feel" shooters, and god only knows how by some of the advocates of discrete aiming systems. As you imply, I think, what they mean by "aiming" does not seem to be what the rest of us understands the term to mean --> determining where to hit the object ball.

Okay, on second thought, a target shooter knows what the target is without much judgement involved, so for him/her aiming includes the process of alignment. Therefore, I believe I've just provided an example of how ambiguous the term can be. :)

Jim
 
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Some of those opposed to aiming systems, let's call them 'feel' players, insist that regardless of what system you are using to aim, you are always making unconscious adjustments to either side of the few fixed 'aim points,'...

...On the other hand, there is equally little doubt that the physical realities of pool tables and pool balls do not allow all pool shots to be made by using only a small number of contact points on the OB.

If there's "little doubt" a small number of contact points can make all shots, why do you only attribute that view to "some of those opposed to aiming systems"? If there's little doubt, wouldn't that be the view of any reasonable person, for or against systems?

pj
chgo
 
Well this will probably be last post on the whole subject because as has been stated , it's like pulling teeth to get a straight answer. :)

I'm neither pro or con 'systems' , in fact I've stated that no matter how you line up a shot , it's some kind of system that you use even if you think it's all feel. There's always a method of some kind.

So . . .

The issue is really with the threads and the presentation of said systems , as I see it.

It starts with "I learned a great system , it works amazingly and I can't tell you how or why".

And basically ends with , "Well try and explain it. ".

The whole rest is just filler of "yes it does" and "I don't see how , please explain it better".

I can't make a judgement as to whether it works or not if those who have been taught can't explain what they learned. And even though I honestly don't have a problem potting balls I still would still be interested to know if there's info there that can be used.

I have a hard time understanding why pretty much the only single question applied to these systems can't at all be explained other that it must be some subconsious voodoo thing. :)

PJ asked the question everyone else wants to know , if your given specific points of aim resulting in specific directions of the OB , then what do you do when in between to of those points? If it's just that you split the two points , why not just come out and say that ? Why pretend that the secrets of the universe are somehow tied up in the outcome ?

Here's a simple shooting example I'm particularly familiar with. Anyone heard of the Armsom OEG Sight ? It's a simple optical sight that I manufacture that works by playing a trick on the way your mind sees things . . . but it does work and work for thousands of people. On paper it probably makes little sense but in practice it works quite well and I yes , CAN tell you why.

Anywho . . .

I'm pretty much done with it till I meet someone in person who care to share it , I'm pretty happy with my game right now maybe I shouldn't clutter it up anyway. :)
 
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It always comes back to adapting the system to your vision and your game. The people who dery this do not understand their own visualisations.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If there's "little doubt" a small number of contact points can make all shots, why do you only attribute that view to "some of those opposed to aiming systems"? If there's little doubt, wouldn't that be the view of any reasonable person, for or against systems?

pj
chgo
I didn't attribute "little doubt that the physical realities of pool tables and pool balls do not allow all pool shots to be made by using only a small number of contact points on the OB" to anyone. I just made the statement. But yes, of course, if there is "little doubt" about something, let's hope that all "reasonable" persons would agree with it. But there may be a tautology here as part of your definition of "reasonalbe person" may be their tendency to believe in things about which there is little doubt.:)
 
JoeW said:
Not sure I agree with all of that Bill. Here are a couple of thoughts for you.

A pistol shooter sets his feet, hips, and controls his breathing. In addition he must become aware of his trigger finger and of course must line up his eye with the rear and front site. All of these things are involved in "aiming."
I don't disagree with anything you said, Joe. I was just trying to suggest that with pistol aiming, one can clearly specify the VISUAL IMAGE that is associated with correct aim whereas in pool, one can't do this as neatly. And certainly can't do it without getting an argument from someone on AZ Billiards!:)
 
Jal said:
Very nice summary, but a minor point to pick.

I don't think that proprioception is, strictly speaking, a part of aiming. While it is essential to getting the cueball to the target, it doesn't really provide the target. The latter is obtained through vision as well as experience/judgement for "feel" shooters, and god only knows how by some of the advocates of discrete aiming systems. As you imply, I think, what they mean by "aiming" does not seem to be what the rest of us understands the term to mean --> determining where to hit the object ball.

Okay, on second thought, a target shooter knows what the target is without much judgement involved, so for him/her aiming includes the process of alignment. Therefore, I believe I've just provided an example of how ambiguous the term can be. :)

Jim
Jim, I think I was considering the "proper" positioning of one's body over the shot as an integral part of the aiming process. And of course, to position one's body in any consistent manner, relative to the shot, involves multiple proprioceptive feedbacks. Heck, you couldn't do the simplest physical act, like picking up your cue, with proprioceptive feedback. Right?:)
 
Let's ask a couple of the better players on this forum how they aim a shot. How about John Schmidt and Billy Incardona. Well,how bout it boys?
 
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blackeee said:
Let's ask a couple of the better players on this forum how they aim a shot. How about John Schmidt and Billy Incardona. Well,how bout boys?

Let's hope one of those guys could provide an honest, insightful answer... it'd be a true gem.
But I'm assuming their reply would be "I dunno, I just see it". I don't know how many 'great' players have used systems for aiming... and that brings up an interesting question... how many top pros weren't natural ball pocketers?
 
... as a matter of fact, that reminds me of a great quote that I somewhat believe......... "to be a great player in this game you need to be either really smart, or really stupid, the people of average intellegence won't do to well"
 
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As far as the hand gun analogy goes. It's all about sight alignment and sight picture. I didn't become a 4th award expert (Baretta 9mm) and a 6th award expert (M-16) in the Marine Corps by having bad alignment.

Do you consider alignment to be part of aim?

It does no good to have perfect visual aim if you're not properly aligned.
 
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seems more like a long bow

I have also done pretty well with rifle and pistol but I think that aiming with a pool cue is often more like aiming with a longbow without sights. As a young man I shot a bow enough to be pretty fair with one. There wasn't any particular thing I could remember aligning other than deciding when the arrow was aligned on the flight path to the target. I couldn't say I was sighting any certain way, I just knew when the total image was right after shooting enough times.

Hu


Hal said:
As far as the hand gun analogy goes. It's all about sight alignment and sight picture. I didn't become a 4th award expert (Baretta 9mm) and a 6th award expert (M-16) in the Marine Corps by having bad alignment.

Do you consider alignment to be part of aim?

It does no good to have perfect visual aim if you're not properly aligned.
 
Hal said:
As far as the hand gun analogy goes. It's all about sight alignment and sight picture. I didn't become a 4th award expert (Baretta 9mm) and a 6th award expert (M-16) in the Marine Corps by having bad alignment.

Do you consider alignment to be part of aim?

It does no good to have perfect visual aim if you're not properly aligned.


As a comp shooter myself I would say yea , sure , alignment is 'a' part of aim but for scoring with a single shot there is a big difference when there is a fixed sighting system atached directly to the device as opposed to 'you' being part of the sighting system as in pool. :) Also since mentioned , as in shooting a bow , your alignment is maybe the most important thing even when using a kisser or scope.

But getting off that tangent , is no one still going to answer the simple question of dealing with pool shots that fall between 2 of the fixed SAM/HAL points ? ;) Or was the answer that no shots fall in that area. :D
 
Hal said:
As far as the hand gun analogy goes. It's all about sight alignment and sight picture. I didn't become a 4th award expert (Baretta 9mm) and a 6th award expert (M-16) in the Marine Corps by having bad alignment.

Do you consider alignment to be part of aim?

It does no good to have perfect visual aim if you're not properly aligned.

These are a couple of good points - and I assume you are NOT
THAT Hal.

The Brits, as usual, are a bit better at the language part.
They use the term 'sighting' for what your eyes do and what your
noodle adds, the infamous visualized target.

If you look up the definition of aim, you get reference to pointing
something at a target. So, I would say alignment is part of the
aimming process. Also, I couldn't agree more about how important
it is to good shotmaking skill.

The bad news is cuesticks don't have a barrel.
Perfect visualization coupled with perfect alignment still don't
make the shot if your delivery is off.

Conversely, I am confidant that I can teach anyone who can master
the task of shoving a cue back and forth in a straight line, to be a
good shotmaker.

Dale
 
Bob Jewett said:
If you haven't seen it yet, here is a whole article from Pool and Billiard Magazine that was exactly about such a question posed to pro players.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/PnB_aiming.pdf
I had read this before, and just read it again just to be sure I remembered it correctly. I did remember it correctly and reach the same conclusion: no pro is able to describe their aiming "process". The only ones who said anything definitive were those who simply said they aim by feel.

The topic of aiming technique, despite the many discussions of it here and on other forums and the several well known "systems" in use and being taught by professional instructors, is still virgin territory.

Maybe Mike Page will be the first to put an actual crack in the egg.

pj
chgo
 
I think the main factor to any systems usage comes back to the individual. Some people need to know how and why things work so their analytical minds can get wrapped around it and be comfortable.

Some people like myself, don't care why it works, just that "it works" as in how I aim by experience and feel. I have studied systems for kicking and the diamond system, but to use one for ANYTHING that has to do with how I shoot a ball only clutters my mind and distracts me.

Same thing when I used to golf a lot....I left the game because of a bad back, and had a 2 handicap in our league. I was asked many times to teach friends which I would do IF they were like me in being a more or less feel player. If they were analytical, I couldn't explain to them how it all works, just how it feels.....They would ask "how do you hit a draw?" and I would answer....swing however you want so it feels like your putting counter clockwise spin on the ball. That picture in their head would start the mechanics of hitting the ball right to left in most cases.

I think the heated debate on systems and their usage goes to the core of what "type" of person we are....

Gerry
 
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