A CTE test!

ok, now whats your opinion on the non cte proponents, because i think your some where in the middle?

The CTE antagonists? I think that's broken down into a few different categories. First, there are the ones that believe that only in practice and repetition can one truely better themselves. Second, there are the people that will call it out until there is a solid, comprehensive outline for how and why it works. Third, there are the people that are there for reasons not dealing with CTE directly; such as myself or people that just want to stir the pot. Eventually, it'll probably just turn into gangs. ;)

I think to each their own and that CTE helps some people, but I still have questions as to how one finds a pivot angle similarly while using different bridge lengths. Those are two variables that I believe are more feel-inclined. But, that's my opinion and I'm not going to waste my time or yours arguing about that. For those that use it, good for them.. for those that don't, good for them. I had figured a way to adjust my aim for a good amount of shots I was taking that included adjustments to english and it seemed to work pretty well for me, but none of my friends could catch on.

I'm just going to play how I'm going to play and hopefully I'll continue to improve as I have. I honestly have little desire to squeeze myself for enough money to make taking any lessons worthwhile and I don't have much of an inclination for watching instructional DVDs(I've paid for 2 to find that out). I've learned in a bar thus far and can put up a decent fight on the felt now and then - my strategy, imho, surpasses my shot-making. My goal is to run a 5-pack in 8b and hopefully a 3-pack in banks by the end of the year(again, I play on bar tables). I'm not going to pretend I'm better than I am, but I'll call something out if I question it.
 
The CTE antagonists? I think that's broken down into a few different categories. First, there are the ones that believe that only in practice and repetition can one truely better themselves. Second, there are the people that will call it out until there is a solid, comprehensive outline for how and why it works. Third, there are the people that are there for reasons not dealing with CTE directly; such as myself or people that just want to stir the pot. Eventually, it'll probably just turn into gangs. ;)

I think to each their own and that CTE helps some people, but I still have questions as to how one finds a pivot angle similarly while using different bridge lengths. Those are two variables that I believe are more feel-inclined. But, that's my opinion and I'm not going to waste my time or yours arguing about that. For those that use it, good for them.. for those that don't, good for them. I had figured a way to adjust my aim for a good amount of shots I was taking that included adjustments to english and it seemed to work pretty well for me, but none of my friends could catch on.

I'm just going to play how I'm going to play and hopefully I'll continue to improve as I have. I honestly have little desire to squeeze myself for enough money to make taking any lessons worthwhile and I don't have much of an inclination for watching instructional DVDs(I've paid for 2 to find that out). I've learned in a bar thus far and can put up a decent fight on the felt now and then - my strategy, imho, surpasses my shot-making. My goal is to run a 5-pack in 8b and hopefully a 3-pack in banks by the end of the year(again, I play on bar tables). I'm not going to pretend I'm better than I am, but I'll call something out if I question it.

You went pretty easy on them :)
 
You went pretty easy on them :)

I have to agree with you. I think this topic has degraded the quality of posts on both sides of the fence. JoeyA and Lou are both posters that I value the input and opinions of. That does not mean that they have not gone overboard on this topic. I've tossed my hat into the ring on this subject before and have revised my position, as I should have earlier, that different people learn different ways.

I think JoeyA may have said it recently that my main objection is not the system, but in the way it is vigorously pushed and presented. I have a tendancy to push back(not that that is right either).

I think we're still at 3 beers, working on 6. :thumbup:
 
I have to agree with you. I think this topic has degraded the quality of posts on both sides of the fence. JoeyA and Lou are both posters that I value the input and opinions of. That does not mean that they have not gone overboard on this topic. I've tossed my hat into the ring on this subject before and have revised my position, as I should have earlier, that different people learn different ways.

I think JoeyA may have said it recently that my main objection is not the system, but in the way it is vigorously pushed and presented. I have a tendancy to push back(not that that is right either).

I think we're still at 3 beers, working on 6. :thumbup:

Alright, you buy the fourth round and i will buy the shots to go with them and we will cheers to Pj's being the biggest pain in the ass this board could possibly have agreed? :thumbup:
 
Alright, you buy the fourth round and i will buy the shots to go with them and we will cheers to Pj's being the biggest pain in the ass this board could possibly have agreed? :thumbup:

That sounds like a deal to me.. except, I'll have to pass on the cheers part, unless we just cheers to this forum producing some rather disagreeable personalities. ;) Or we can cheers to boobs or something! :thumbup:
 
That sounds like a deal to me.. except, I'll have to pass on the cheers part, unless we just cheers to this forum producing some rather disagreeable personalities. ;) Or we can cheers to boobs or something! :thumbup:

ok we will compromise then and cheers to him having the most disagreeable personality on the board :thumbup:
 
Stan's quite clear that the CTE line is to be visualized as running across the top of the cue ball. Here's a bunch of pictures. They were drawn with SketchUp (my thanks to Jal for the table) and captured with Greenshot (this got better images than saving them as .jpg files with SketchUp for some reason).

These are all of one shot: a right cut of about 22-23 degrees, which calls for an outside tip placement relative to the cue ball center, and a left pivot (which is only necessary if you use the outside tip placement, which itself isn't really necessary, but probably is useful as a training aid). I removed the ghost ball for all but the first image.

First, nice diagrams. I'm home and can see them now.
While the CTE orange line is to be visualized running over the top of the CB, I presume that it is also over the center of the CB. The secondary aim chartruse line runs from the 3:00 on the CB equator to the center of the OB. The lateral shift of the bridge and 1/2 cue tip is to the outside of the center of the CB and the CTEL. From there, one pivots/rotates the cue tip at the bridge to the right to get on the shot line (you wrote "left pivot")...no matter.

I have never thoiught about placing my bridge outside of the two aim lines. I thought that the cue and bridge would below the left or right eye or somewhere in between.

Whenever I focus on the secondary aim line, at say the outer 1/8, This forces me to move my eye/s, head and body to move off of the CTEL.

Even if I tilt my head, I cannot resolve the two aim lines simultaniously. I will have to concentrate of contort more?

I will chew on this during dinner.

Thanks to you and JAL.:):thumbup:


temp-CTE-225-R-short.jpg
temp-CTE-225-R-short-ovhd.jpg
temp-CTE-225-R-short-low-e2bline.jpg

The left image is roughly from the player's view before moving to set his bridge; the middle one looks almost directly down on the table; the right one looks along the Edge-to-B line (approximately), but it's still looking down somewhat.

This is from the side, about the middle of the CB-OB line, and about the height of the middle of the balls:
temp-CTE-225-R-short-side-azb.jpg


Finally, the most interesting one (to me, at the moment). This is another effort to get the player's view as he moves to set his bridge; it looks along the Edge-to-B line. Note the relationship of the CTE line (orange-ish) and the ghost ball line (white). Also note the black line to the right of the ghost ball line.

temp-CTE-225-R-short-cte-vert.jpg


The black line is the vertical projection of the visualized orange CTE line onto the table. Visually, from the player's point of view those lines are pretty far apart horizontally - around an inch apart at around eight inches behind the cue ball along the ghost ball line - i.e., at a reasonable bridge point. Several things come immediately to mind. (See note at end of post.)

When Shuffett refers to the CTE line, which of those lines does he mean? Or does he mean Jal's, which is visualized as being through the centroid of the cue ball and lies between the two I show, though still to the right of the ghost ball line? (Jal's is interesting and possibly the most useful of the three, but it may be too hard for players to visualize. Also, I don't yet know how to draw it with SketchUp.:)) To further illustrate the difficulties (that I perceive), here's the image from exactly the same angle (we know this because the Edge-to-B line is still vertical on your screen - well, on mine, anyway) but a different distance and elevation.

temp-CTE-225-R-short-player-2.jpg


The difference is that we are further back and higher. Notice where the orange CTE line has moved to visually.

Unfortunately, another thing I don't yet know how to do with SketchUp is tell it to put its camera at a certain location in space. I'd like to do that because I'd like to see how all of this looks with the camera at the level of a standing player's eyes (because that's where Shuffett says to get the visuals), which would be about 30-40 inches above the table and mostly around three to four feet behind the cue ball, I think.

I know I said "Several things" above, but it's 0400, I'm rather tired of this right now, and hungry. I'm going to go make a couple of grilled bacon-cheese sandwiches and finish off the Petite Sirah we had for dinner. If anybody is interested, I'll try to go into the other stuff later. Except for the difficulty I perceive in representing most of CTE/ProOne accurately in 2D, which I'm tired of talking about. Oh... and except for "exactness" which was never of much interest to me.

-- jwp
---------------------------
Note: Here I'm using the phrase "Several things come immediately to mind." in the sense that academics in higher-end research universities use it, which is closely related to the meaning of "It is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer...". The difference is that the former has the lay meaning "I've worked on this 17 hours a day for the last five years and I think I may have finally figured out what some of the problems are, maybe."; whereas the latter means "I've worked on this 17 hours a day for the last five years...." and either (a) "... I understand it but it's really hard and I'm not about to give it away to the likes of you." or (b, which is more likely) "... I haven't got a clue what the hell is happening in there but this sort of looks right, I hope, and I hope you aren't so gauche as to ask about it, especially if you expect to [graduate/get your PhD/get tenure - as appropriate].".

Thanks again.:)
 
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When I watched Stevie Moore play in the last few years, he often bent over quite a bit to sight something from a considerable distance and then kind of crept into the shooting position. In other words, it seems like he is getting his visuals from down low rather than standing upright.

You're absolutely right, and he does that on the DVD, also. Thank you for the correction. It's possible all three are always doing that and I misinterpreted it when watching the DVD. I'll check - altitude does make a difference in where the lines appear to lie on the table.
 
You're absolutely right, and he does that on the DVD, also. Thank you for the correction. It's possible all three are always doing that and I misinterpreted it when watching the DVD. I'll check - altitude does make a difference in where the lines appear to lie on the table.

From what I remember, Stevie wasn't doing such a down-low-and-creep-in on the DVD as I saw in some tournaments, and Landon seemed to stay pretty upright.
 
From what I remember, Stevie wasn't doing such a down-low-and-creep-in on the DVD as I saw in some tournaments, and Landon seemed to stay pretty upright.

Ok, I finally found the remote control for the DVD player so that I could watch this at 1/4 speed when needed. First, Stan is quite emphatic that all visuals are acquired in the upright position. He is equally emphatic that you maintain them as you move to address the ball. All three of them (Stan, Landon, and Stevie Moore) acquire the visuals in the upright position with their head level with their shoulders. There is one exception to that: When a right-hander needs to shoot a straight-in shot or extremely thick cut, there may be times when he wants/needs to use the CB center to OB left edge instead of OB right edge; in that case, he may need to bend over slightly to acquire the correct sight lines.

Moore acquires his visuals upright but does it very fast. Without moving toward the table, he bends about half way to shooting level and pauses, apparently (from watching him carefully) checking his visuals, then he continues into shooting position. Clearly, I missed the significance of the bend the first time I watched it, then the second time didn't realize he already had his visual alignment by the time he bent over. It's quite clear when run at 1/2 or slower speed.

For people who care about "initial cue alignment", all three of them have the cue in what I would call a "low, loose port arms" position until they start to move into the shot. (People who were never in the military should go find somebody to show them the position if they care, or go get the USMC manual that explains it.) Once they start moving into the shot, the bridge hand arcs the cue down to the table and slides into final position with the tip offset the shot needs. It appears to be at a quite shallow angle to the GB line, but that doesn't really matter since the bridge point is now on the GB line.

As I've noted before, really seeing what they're doing on the DVD is extremely important. Doing so makes things much clearer. To be honest, I can't blame them for not trying to give detailed descriptions in words (I didn't even want to describe port arms, and it's a lot simpler). It would have been helpful if they'd gone carefully through one effort at alignment with pauses and descriptions of what's going on, but that would probably have added 20 minutes to the DVD. Just pay attention, pause and rewind the DVD often, and think about what you're seeing.
 
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Even Stan's description of how to use the system is not exact. It's vague and incomplete in critical areas (how to position your eyes using the "aimline visual", where to place your bridge, etc.) leaving interpretations up to the user. There is no useful sense in which CTE is exact (or "precise" or "complete" or whatever word you like).

pj
chgo

If you watched the dvd and used the info on an actual pool table, not just in your mind, you wouldn't post bad info like this. It's a highly visual system as explained by Stan and demonstrated by Stevie and Landon with the visuals they use for the shots. Lock in the visuals and a half-tip pivot, it really is not that hard. You are pretty good at muddying the waters though PJ.
 
So here's my take on this whole thing so far. The math regarding the system makes no sense to me. Logically it should not work. For example: any sighting that aligns me to make a straight in shot, should always align me straight at the OB, thus only work for straight in shots. None the less, I am making shots with the system that would normally cause some uneasiness with much greater ease. I am making shots where I can't see the pocket when down on the ball, and hitting them center pocket after an alignment, 1/2 tip, then pivot. I am also making banks with more frequency that I would not normally attempt, and easier banks with regularity.

The hardest part about the system so far, is knowing what alignment and pivot to use with each shot. The system becomes cumbersome when you have to try a few different alignments and pivots to get what looks correct. None the less, for each shot, as long as I try all of the alignments, I end up with one that works. I also need to become more accurate and repeatable with the system itself.

In conclusion, while I don't see how this system can possibly work, I am shooting better with it, so I am going to continue to experiment with it. I certainly need to improve my stroke, speed control, pattern play etc., etc., etc., so it has not made me a world champion or anything even remotely close, but it seems to have improved my ball pocketing skills.

For now, that's all I have to say about that.
 
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