Very strange to me too. But, I think that view just changed.
A ferrule conversation - please join the fun
- Thread starter prewarhero
- Start date
Very strange to me too. But, I think that view just changed.
That I can agree with or buy into more then having no effect. I do feel It can be minimized, and that is more in My train of thought of where I would like to go. We need a better material for It though because We give up a lot in the way of strength.
Currently the only way to combat the issue that I know of is to cap, but then It sort of defeats the purpose to a point.
I have been trying to research materials that You can go really thin and maintain structural integrity. Most materials I know of that would work for that area would be heavier, and again defeat the purpose.
I have no experiences with It so I don't know about this, but I have thought maybe a carbon fiber tube, although My thinking was they are black, this may not bother some, but for others the black may be distracting.
I noticed at a glance last night that there is some carbon fiber tube that is white, although looks like the center is still black. I don't know if this would be a feasible idea or not if the correct size and thickness could be obtained or if it would be weakened as much as some other materials and become brittle when thinned. Anyone know of this route being traveled before? Surely someone has tried, so I can only Imagine there must be some downfall to the thought.
Currently the only way to combat the issue that I know of is to cap, but then It sort of defeats the purpose to a point.
I have been trying to research materials that You can go really thin and maintain structural integrity. Most materials I know of that would work for that area would be heavier, and again defeat the purpose.
I have no experiences with It so I don't know about this, but I have thought maybe a carbon fiber tube, although My thinking was they are black, this may not bother some, but for others the black may be distracting.
I noticed at a glance last night that there is some carbon fiber tube that is white, although looks like the center is still black. I don't know if this would be a feasible idea or not if the correct size and thickness could be obtained or if it would be weakened as much as some other materials and become brittle when thinned. Anyone know of this route being traveled before? Surely someone has tried, so I can only Imagine there must be some downfall to the thought.
The most durable material I tried for ferrule was kevlar . Threaded it 3/8 24 through. Had the shaft at less than 12.5MM tip. It didn't crack. You can robogrip the ferrule till it bends/collapses. Won't break.
You can even use it as breaking tip.
Drawback to kevlar is, they're green and they absorb chalk.
Right now, the most durable lightweight material is linen epoxy or Mason's Micarta as far as I know. It does not have glass like glass melamine ( which is considered G9 afaik, but I could be wrong ).
You can have them capped or no cap.
I don't think one way will cause you to miss the money ball or shape .
The way you choose might have more to do with your construction process in the end. Do you like keeping that center hole at the end of the shafts right down to the final turning or sanding ? Or you rather whack the shaft at 28.800 or yay long and install the capped ferrule ( a split collet will be useful here ) then turn down the whole shaft with that ferrule center drilled ?
Gus built legendary hitting cues . So do SW today. So does DS .
Or Hercek.
I bet their ferrule configs are different.
Hi,
I have read this thread and everyone has their way of doing things and a comfort zone concerning ferrules.
I know Eric uses a .375 tenon and a through hole ferrule. I agree with his thinking but I use a .312. There are reasons ST Cues are known for their playability and his ferrule configuration is just one attribute of the equation. Albeit a very important one IMO.
I know some very notable top tier CMs and cue shops who also exclusively use through hole ferrules and would never thread or cap one either.
To me threading a ferrule is just a waste of my time. I have threaded and capped every type of material and to my feedback I never liked the ones that have threaded tenons and are capped. That is just me.
I owned a very large pool hall for ten years and did a ton of cue maintenance and repair work in my area. I did a least one or two ferrules a week average for that ten years and one thing I can say that is 100% accurate with no prejudice is that the overwhelming majority of cracked ferrules I repaired were indeed threaded.
Many people turn down the tenon lower than the required dimension so that they don't break the tenon off with that tenon die tool torque or they used wax to help the die cut the threads. Why would you want to put wax on some thing you are about to glue up. That is beyond me.
When I am turning a ferrule off that is cracked somewhere in that process with most threaded ferrules, half the dam thing comes flying off.
So as not to offend anyone who wants to thread a ferrule, I am not accounting for the ferrules that don't fly off like that. I believe the good ones are live threaded and the thread glue interface is very good. My observation concerning reliability does not take into effect that I the ones that are live threaded fly off at all and are not perfectly glued in the thread interface. The only way to go if you are going to thread is to live thread like DZ and Joey do it. Those tenon cutters don't do a good job the way I see it.
JMO,
Rick
Here is the typical cracked ferrule that I see in my repair business. I don't think this one was live threaded!
I have read this thread and everyone has their way of doing things and a comfort zone concerning ferrules.
I know Eric uses a .375 tenon and a through hole ferrule. I agree with his thinking but I use a .312. There are reasons ST Cues are known for their playability and his ferrule configuration is just one attribute of the equation. Albeit a very important one IMO.
I know some very notable top tier CMs and cue shops who also exclusively use through hole ferrules and would never thread or cap one either.
To me threading a ferrule is just a waste of my time. I have threaded and capped every type of material and to my feedback I never liked the ones that have threaded tenons and are capped. That is just me.
I owned a very large pool hall for ten years and did a ton of cue maintenance and repair work in my area. I did a least one or two ferrules a week average for that ten years and one thing I can say that is 100% accurate with no prejudice is that the overwhelming majority of cracked ferrules I repaired were indeed threaded.
Many people turn down the tenon lower than the required dimension so that they don't break the tenon off with that tenon die tool torque or they used wax to help the die cut the threads. Why would you want to put wax on some thing you are about to glue up. That is beyond me.
When I am turning a ferrule off that is cracked somewhere in that process with most threaded ferrules, half the dam thing comes flying off.
So as not to offend anyone who wants to thread a ferrule, I am not accounting for the ferrules that don't fly off like that. I believe the good ones are live threaded and the thread glue interface is very good. My observation concerning reliability does not take into effect that I the ones that are live threaded fly off at all and are not perfectly glued in the thread interface. The only way to go if you are going to thread is to live thread like DZ and Joey do it. Those tenon cutters don't do a good job the way I see it.
JMO,
Rick
Here is the typical cracked ferrule that I see in my repair business. I don't think this one was live threaded!
Last edited:
Rick, both your description & your picture point to BONDING problems, not threading problems. If "half the dam thing comes flying off", that means there isn't any glue bond between the tenon & the ferrule. In this case, it wouldn't have mattered if it was unthreaded or live tooled. There's obviously no bond there.When I am turning a ferrule off that is cracked somewhere in that process with most threaded ferrules, half the dam thing comes flying off.
Here is the typical cracked ferrule that I see in my repair business. I don't think this one was live threaded!
Is this because of a waxed tenon, improper glue choice, wonky ferrule material, poor technique? It's hard to say with only one example but if it's a regular thing, it's probably all of the above.
Note: this is not to be confused with destroying the glue bond with heat & unscrewing a ferrule. The above picture shows a ferrule that was being machined off. The glue bond was not destroyed - it never existed.
Thanx for the pic Rick, excellent talking point.
It's obvious that the ferrule install was glue-starved and that can be a problem with threaded ferrules.
Another problem is the minor dia. of the tenon. It only serves to weaken the tenon.
What started-out as a 5/16"(.3125) tenon is now reduced to what? .250/.260"?
I do thru-ferreles and abandoned 5/16" tenons yrs. ago. I'm note quite at 3/8" but close.
I read a post from Eric that speaks to the shaft-wood being in contact with the bottom of the tip.
I wholeheartedly agree with that. Obviously my ferrules are not capped nor are they threaded.
Not in the traditional sense anyway. I've already disclosed that method in previous threads.
I know that my tenon is stronger and with the correct ferrule mtrl. the way is paved for better feedback.
At the end of the day it's a personal preference and what the builder is confident with.
Clearly there are many install methods and to each his own.
BTW, I've never lost a ferrule or tenon using my current construction method.
Just lucky I guess.
I 've had a thought on this that may help to visualize.
SW uses a thru ferrule while Schon uses a capped.
If you were asked to define the difference in hit btwn the two,
the ferrule construction of each would be a good place to start.
Admittedly there are numerous differences elsewhere in their construction
but what it comes down to is 'where the rubber meets the road'.
The cap or the lack thereof makes a difference.
KJ
It's obvious that the ferrule install was glue-starved and that can be a problem with threaded ferrules.
Another problem is the minor dia. of the tenon. It only serves to weaken the tenon.
What started-out as a 5/16"(.3125) tenon is now reduced to what? .250/.260"?
I do thru-ferreles and abandoned 5/16" tenons yrs. ago. I'm note quite at 3/8" but close.
I read a post from Eric that speaks to the shaft-wood being in contact with the bottom of the tip.
I wholeheartedly agree with that. Obviously my ferrules are not capped nor are they threaded.
Not in the traditional sense anyway. I've already disclosed that method in previous threads.
I know that my tenon is stronger and with the correct ferrule mtrl. the way is paved for better feedback.
At the end of the day it's a personal preference and what the builder is confident with.
Clearly there are many install methods and to each his own.
BTW, I've never lost a ferrule or tenon using my current construction method.
Just lucky I guess.
I 've had a thought on this that may help to visualize.
SW uses a thru ferrule while Schon uses a capped.
If you were asked to define the difference in hit btwn the two,
the ferrule construction of each would be a good place to start.
Admittedly there are numerous differences elsewhere in their construction
but what it comes down to is 'where the rubber meets the road'.
The cap or the lack thereof makes a difference.
KJ
Last edited:
Flat top threaded tenon and V-threads, Rick ?
Obviously not a great job .
A lot of ferrules btw, DO NOT GLUE very well. Good luck in not threading those .
Seen too many imports slip.
Ted Harris, who has seen way too many ferrules develop gap at the bottom from his decades of being a road repair person maybe should chime in.
Obviously not a great job .
A lot of ferrules btw, DO NOT GLUE very well. Good luck in not threading those .
Seen too many imports slip.
Ted Harris, who has seen way too many ferrules develop gap at the bottom from his decades of being a road repair person maybe should chime in.
Make a shaft & put no ferrule on it, only tip. Play with it for a while & then install a ferrule & another tip of the same brand & hardness as the first. If you can notice a significant change, then IMO you are using an install technique that adds an infinity of variables for you to consider, which you cannot, so the result is incredible inconsistency from cue to cue. From this point you have to decide whether to continue your current method because it's what you're comfortable with or feel is most durable, or you can begin experimenting with different methods that may enable you to build with more consistency, but possibly sacrifice a certain level of durability. Personally, I prefer consistency. The fewer factors I have to consider, the easier things are for me. And I'm all about easy. K.I.S.S.
As for Rick's picture, that is IMO the absolute worst thing you can do. Might as well start a marathon race by breaking your foot. It's that crippling. I know it's a common method for newer builders, but use your noggin. The die won't cut threads, only stress indent them, so you have to cut the tenon so thin that the die won't shred the wood or twist the tenon off. Then you wax it so the grain doesn't tear apart. It's a sloppy fit at best and glue won't stick to wax. Worst of all the ferrule is capped, so 100% of the impact from playing is buffered through the union between that ferrule & tenon. Talk about inconsistency, you'll be lucky if that tenon can even stay on, let alone do a solid job as a conduit. Power from your hand is channeled through the cue, bypassing that tiny waxed tenon, and dispersed out into the ferrule's walls that then re-accumulate in the cap before being transmitted to the tip and eventually into the ball. Give that some thought.
Now imagine a thick tenon merely reinforced by a ferrule, with the tip being glued directly to the wood. Power is funneled through the tenon, constriction determined only by ferrule thickness, but flows uninterrupted through tip and to the ball. The thinner the ferrule, the less constriction of power. It would make sense that the thicker the ferrule is, the more critical the material type will be. Likewise, the thinner it is, the less influence it will have. It's a science that none of are likely willing to go through the trouble to quantify, so the best we can do is negate as many factors as possible so that we can focus only on things that really matter. Logically, with everything you negate or eliminate, everything else becomes that much more important. Soon enough you find that there are only a few things left to consider. The best recipe for a steak is starting with a good cut & just tossing it on the grill. Everything you add detracts from it's naturally blissful flavor. Only less than stellar meat requires added frills & flavors.
As for Rick's picture, that is IMO the absolute worst thing you can do. Might as well start a marathon race by breaking your foot. It's that crippling. I know it's a common method for newer builders, but use your noggin. The die won't cut threads, only stress indent them, so you have to cut the tenon so thin that the die won't shred the wood or twist the tenon off. Then you wax it so the grain doesn't tear apart. It's a sloppy fit at best and glue won't stick to wax. Worst of all the ferrule is capped, so 100% of the impact from playing is buffered through the union between that ferrule & tenon. Talk about inconsistency, you'll be lucky if that tenon can even stay on, let alone do a solid job as a conduit. Power from your hand is channeled through the cue, bypassing that tiny waxed tenon, and dispersed out into the ferrule's walls that then re-accumulate in the cap before being transmitted to the tip and eventually into the ball. Give that some thought.
Now imagine a thick tenon merely reinforced by a ferrule, with the tip being glued directly to the wood. Power is funneled through the tenon, constriction determined only by ferrule thickness, but flows uninterrupted through tip and to the ball. The thinner the ferrule, the less constriction of power. It would make sense that the thicker the ferrule is, the more critical the material type will be. Likewise, the thinner it is, the less influence it will have. It's a science that none of are likely willing to go through the trouble to quantify, so the best we can do is negate as many factors as possible so that we can focus only on things that really matter. Logically, with everything you negate or eliminate, everything else becomes that much more important. Soon enough you find that there are only a few things left to consider. The best recipe for a steak is starting with a good cut & just tossing it on the grill. Everything you add detracts from it's naturally blissful flavor. Only less than stellar meat requires added frills & flavors.
Like I mentioned I do feel the effects can be minimized, especially with a non threaded, no capped, thinner ferrule. Good or bad aside, I keep trying to imagine how much dampening effect the ferrule has on tone or vibration. See I'm picturing something like a tuning fork in My mind, and what effects if any it would have to lets say.. wrap tape or put a sleeve of some sort around the end of the forks.
Eric I started to figure that must have been where You were going with previous comments, but You threw Me off By making me think You were saying there would be no effect at all. Actually what Your talking about is an area I have been exploring for a while, But I'm caught between the playability and strength.
Tenon threaders I have had some experiences with, and from those, success has been mixed, I've definitely had more success then not, but in all honesty There have been a few failures, Hard to say how much the wax had to with that, although naturally I have always had My concerns, but after the threads were completed, It was usually really hard to even tell the wax was still there, and on at least some of them that I know of the glue bond broke on the ferrule side, or the failure was a result of a cracked ferrule, so that makes It hard for me to put It all on the wax or the compression style threads for that matter, although even in My mind It may come natural to want do that. With the threads that I have made that way in the past, I have tested them, and using a pair of pliers to screw them on, I could not strip them without snapping a tenon, ferrule or the shaft. It's very easy to get them wrong with a compression dia though, and strip them out If the diameter is not perfect. Another issue I see is the pressure induced on the ferrule while forcing a tap into it. There are some ferrule materials that are just too weak to use in a cue IMO, much less when forcing a tap into them.
With that said, I still replace what's there on the repair side, but On the build side, with the exception of break ferrules, which incidentally I have had absolutely zero failures with that I know of, I have moved away from that method in My own player cues, and prefer the larger tenon myself now. The thinner I go with the ferrule, does bring up some thoughts as to whether I would want to live thread all of them or slip fit them in the future. My thinking is no threads, more ferrule material for basically the same size tenon. It's putting a lot on the glue to hold up over time though. Hard to find the best of both worlds, but I suppose that's part of the road traveled. Everyone has to find what they prefer and what works for them.
Eric I started to figure that must have been where You were going with previous comments, but You threw Me off By making me think You were saying there would be no effect at all. Actually what Your talking about is an area I have been exploring for a while, But I'm caught between the playability and strength.
Tenon threaders I have had some experiences with, and from those, success has been mixed, I've definitely had more success then not, but in all honesty There have been a few failures, Hard to say how much the wax had to with that, although naturally I have always had My concerns, but after the threads were completed, It was usually really hard to even tell the wax was still there, and on at least some of them that I know of the glue bond broke on the ferrule side, or the failure was a result of a cracked ferrule, so that makes It hard for me to put It all on the wax or the compression style threads for that matter, although even in My mind It may come natural to want do that. With the threads that I have made that way in the past, I have tested them, and using a pair of pliers to screw them on, I could not strip them without snapping a tenon, ferrule or the shaft. It's very easy to get them wrong with a compression dia though, and strip them out If the diameter is not perfect. Another issue I see is the pressure induced on the ferrule while forcing a tap into it. There are some ferrule materials that are just too weak to use in a cue IMO, much less when forcing a tap into them.
With that said, I still replace what's there on the repair side, but On the build side, with the exception of break ferrules, which incidentally I have had absolutely zero failures with that I know of, I have moved away from that method in My own player cues, and prefer the larger tenon myself now. The thinner I go with the ferrule, does bring up some thoughts as to whether I would want to live thread all of them or slip fit them in the future. My thinking is no threads, more ferrule material for basically the same size tenon. It's putting a lot on the glue to hold up over time though. Hard to find the best of both worlds, but I suppose that's part of the road traveled. Everyone has to find what they prefer and what works for them.
Last edited:
Thanks Eric for your feed into this subject, hearing information from the maker of my cue is always a pleasure. I've tried emailing you about sending my cue to you for a refinish but never had a reply, I know your a busy man but It would be great to have the refinish done by you to keep the cue all original.
-Drew
-Drew
Why stay at 9MM when you can go all the way up to .375???
That might be the difference between a banger cue to a shortstop cue.
Or a pro-playing cue ?
Back in the mid 90's, there were two pro tournaments here in LA.
The first year, Efren and Wetch went to the finals. Efren was shooting with a cueball ferrule that made the ugliest sound you can imagine when he drew the cue ball. Jimmy Wetch was shooting with a Schon back then ( unpaid endorser ). That was before both were signed by Meucci the year after . I don't know if they were bangers, but Meucci had that long plastic capped ferrule then. Schon had that 1" capped ferrule too. I believe Schon already switched to melamine then.
The year after that, Parica beat Efren in the finals. Parica was shooting with an Olivier that year. Looked like a capped 1" melamine to me as well. In that tournament, Parica shot a 1.000 in his match against Tony Ellin earlier . Freakin' 1.000. In the semis he ran over Rodney Morris. Rodney had the pingiest cue in the cabana . It was a Gus cue. I believe it had an ivory ferrule . How did Gus do his ferrules ?
I saw Tommy Kennedy's beautiful BEM SW cue that time too. He must have been banging b/c he was sent home early.
All these during the time Predator was already getting popular btw.
My conclusion ? Maybe it's closer to this .
If it does that without killing the cue ball's action, the feel of the hit and does not have add a ton of squirt. Does not absorb chalk crazily and lasts a long time, it's good to me.
Tried all threaded configs I can imagine UNC, UNF, 16tpi or whatever.
Decided what's good for collars, A-joint and butt plate is good for ferrules too. UNF would add maybe 3-4 more threads and have a cleaner face. Decided it wouldn't make a difference b/c there's a fix for that too.
I move the thread lever for the joint pin. Everything else is on one gear.
Last edited: