Shaft wood: A grade vs AAA grade maple, aside from costmetics, would there be any difference in hit quality and overall playability of a cue? I would think an A grade maple shaft would be just as good as the higher grade ones if it is “seasoned” right. Would the very slight difference in density and weight (if there is any) be noticeable to an average player or even a pro?
A grade vs AAA grade maple
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there is a difference
but you may be correct implying that an amateur could not notice. I think many B, A, and pros would though, but can adjust to how the shaft plays. Cosmetic value, that pure white perfect look, does not help play. But the many tiny, tightly packed, growth rings of a top notch shaft with very straight grain will make a noticeable hit difference many of us will appreciate! Mother natures complex laminate shaft! And I think it is less prone to warp when the number of growth rings goes up in a properly dried and cared for shaft.
but you may be correct implying that an amateur could not notice. I think many B, A, and pros would though, but can adjust to how the shaft plays. Cosmetic value, that pure white perfect look, does not help play. But the many tiny, tightly packed, growth rings of a top notch shaft with very straight grain will make a noticeable hit difference many of us will appreciate! Mother natures complex laminate shaft! And I think it is less prone to warp when the number of growth rings goes up in a properly dried and cared for shaft.
First off, A grade and AAA grade are subjective titles. My A grade might be someone's AAA grade.
There are many grading factors to look at for shafts. Most people like the white look. It is pretty, but I agree with olsonview that it does not help play. I might even go a step further and say it could hurt the play.
You should try and grade shafts objectively. How many growth rings can you count at the base of the shaft? Can you follow the grain line at the spine the length of the shaft or does it disappear out the side? Are the grain lines straight or curvy? Is the pattern of tightness of growth consistent? Those are the things that can sometimes change the quality of play in a shaft, and are all valuable indicators. Also, sometimes the difference in densities is not that slight.
But ater all that, it still might not be a great shaft, and one with poor looking grain that might not grade high might hit great.
Tight growth rings doesn't indicate whether the tree grew on a poor site (poor soil, starved of water, competition) and is not the greatest wood, and somewhat loose growth rings could come from a healthy tree grown on a good site with an open canopy, and make a great shaft.
I agree beginners might not notice, but even average players who want to notice those kinds of things can. I recently shot with a friend from work. A total beginner as in didn't know any proper bridges. I let him shoot with a low end production cue I had available for a while. It is a bit butt heavy. I then let him shoot a few games with my It's George that has a much better balance. He immediately felt the difference and knew it felt better (I didn't say anything to him about the balance before he tried it). He couldn't run three balls even on accident, but he could feel the difference in the cues. So, you ask a great question, and in my opinion even an average player if he wants to learn about such things can benefit from them.
just my opinion,
Kelly
There are many grading factors to look at for shafts. Most people like the white look. It is pretty, but I agree with olsonview that it does not help play. I might even go a step further and say it could hurt the play.
You should try and grade shafts objectively. How many growth rings can you count at the base of the shaft? Can you follow the grain line at the spine the length of the shaft or does it disappear out the side? Are the grain lines straight or curvy? Is the pattern of tightness of growth consistent? Those are the things that can sometimes change the quality of play in a shaft, and are all valuable indicators. Also, sometimes the difference in densities is not that slight.
But ater all that, it still might not be a great shaft, and one with poor looking grain that might not grade high might hit great.
Tight growth rings doesn't indicate whether the tree grew on a poor site (poor soil, starved of water, competition) and is not the greatest wood, and somewhat loose growth rings could come from a healthy tree grown on a good site with an open canopy, and make a great shaft.
I agree beginners might not notice, but even average players who want to notice those kinds of things can. I recently shot with a friend from work. A total beginner as in didn't know any proper bridges. I let him shoot with a low end production cue I had available for a while. It is a bit butt heavy. I then let him shoot a few games with my It's George that has a much better balance. He immediately felt the difference and knew it felt better (I didn't say anything to him about the balance before he tried it). He couldn't run three balls even on accident, but he could feel the difference in the cues. So, you ask a great question, and in my opinion even an average player if he wants to learn about such things can benefit from them.
just my opinion,
Kelly
Grain runoff
I've just started cutting my own shafts and I'm very interested in this subject. Among other things, you mentioned following the grain line the length of the shaft. If the grain does run off, does this automatically make for a bad shaft?
Kelly_Guy said:
I've just started cutting my own shafts and I'm very interested in this subject. Among other things, you mentioned following the grain line the length of the shaft. If the grain does run off, does this automatically make for a bad shaft?
wannabe myself...
No, not necessarily, but I feel the potential for it being a really good shaft is less. In the end, there are two things that ultimately matter.
1. Overall yield of your shaft wood versus culls.
2. How the shafts play.
The key is striving to select material that gives you a high yield of decent to great shafts. Straight grain with no run off tend to play better as well as stay straighter (hence higher yield), but there are always exceptions. It goes without saying all of it should be seasoned and turned several times slowly.
If you took 100 straight grain no run off shafts, and 100 shafts with run off, all other things being equal, I think you would get a better yield of really good shafts from the 100 straight grain...but there would be some of the ones with run off that would perform as good as or better than some of the ones with straight grain.
Kelly
Bill the Cat said:
No, not necessarily, but I feel the potential for it being a really good shaft is less. In the end, there are two things that ultimately matter.
1. Overall yield of your shaft wood versus culls.
2. How the shafts play.
The key is striving to select material that gives you a high yield of decent to great shafts. Straight grain with no run off tend to play better as well as stay straighter (hence higher yield), but there are always exceptions. It goes without saying all of it should be seasoned and turned several times slowly.
If you took 100 straight grain no run off shafts, and 100 shafts with run off, all other things being equal, I think you would get a better yield of really good shafts from the 100 straight grain...but there would be some of the ones with run off that would perform as good as or better than some of the ones with straight grain.
Kelly
Grain runoff
Thanks Kelly! All the shaft wood I've purchased so far has "some" grain runoff. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how they come out.
Thanks Kelly! All the shaft wood I've purchased so far has "some" grain runoff. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how they come out.
As far as grade rating, I would consider wood use in Dufferin SP as A grade, SP from a custom maker as AA, and very top end custom cues as AAA. An A grade would be considered as good enough for a cue, AAA grade is cream of the crops, and AA grade could be anything in between. I also want to clear up that grade is classified as to the straightness of the wood, density of the annual rings, and color of the wood, nothing else. I want to clear the misconception that AAA grade materials automatically make good playing cues.
The problem with wood use in Dufferins is that the company mass produce, and they are in the business of competitive pricing which does not allow them to put their materials through the long process of aging as compare to custom builders. Custom makers can afford to sit on a small selected supply for many years because of their higher returns when their cues are finished and sold, where as Dufferin doesn’t have enough materials to turn out cues, time is money for a company like Dufferin. To compare the playability between a Dufferin and a custom would be an unfair test, since they were not subjected to the same building process, if they both were then it would be a lot more interesting.
Why custom makers don’t use A grade? Would anyone pay large amount of their hard earned cash for a custom cue that cosmetically look like a Dufferin. No. Custom makers use high grade wood because they have high paying customers with high expectations, including a cosmetically good looking cue. Would anyone pays 50gs for a Honda Civic with all the Corvette performance, or would you expect a silver bullet Corvette and the killer looks for your money? That’s why you don’t see anyone trying to build 50gs Civics, not that it’s impossible but because you wouldn’t sell a single one. (This is off the subject for all the non-believers that a Civic can’t be tuned to have the performance of a Corvette: the technology is mind blowing, it might takes six digits figure for the process though) Custom makers can yield more money by using higher grade woods. Whether a custom maker is using A grade or AAA grade, he puts in the same amount of time, energy, and enough, so why not use higher grade and charge/make more money.
I am a recreational guitar player, and I have read up on the subject concerning wood grade’s relation to how good a guitar sound. I have learn that master guitar builders do not believe in high grade equates to how good the final product performs. They select by tapping the wood for the sound quality of each piece, then construction technique and craftsmanship comes into play. They could be blind for the sound test. That’s a special skill that would takes years or even decade(s) to acquire, and some may never acquire it no matter how long they are in the business. I think this hold truth to cue makers as well, some just have that special skill which they just know by mysterious ways that a piece of wood is good, and if profit returns was not a concern I think you would see more A grade looking material in cues that are considered high playability cues.
In a blind test, it would be hard to distinguish a cue made from Rosewood, Cocobolo, Bacote, or Ebony, let alone trying to distinguish between A grade and AAA grade, under the condition that the cues are seasoned, built, and constructed the same way and by the same builder.
We all know the ending to the story of the little ugly duckling! I am a believer.
The problem with wood use in Dufferins is that the company mass produce, and they are in the business of competitive pricing which does not allow them to put their materials through the long process of aging as compare to custom builders. Custom makers can afford to sit on a small selected supply for many years because of their higher returns when their cues are finished and sold, where as Dufferin doesn’t have enough materials to turn out cues, time is money for a company like Dufferin. To compare the playability between a Dufferin and a custom would be an unfair test, since they were not subjected to the same building process, if they both were then it would be a lot more interesting.
Why custom makers don’t use A grade? Would anyone pay large amount of their hard earned cash for a custom cue that cosmetically look like a Dufferin. No. Custom makers use high grade wood because they have high paying customers with high expectations, including a cosmetically good looking cue. Would anyone pays 50gs for a Honda Civic with all the Corvette performance, or would you expect a silver bullet Corvette and the killer looks for your money? That’s why you don’t see anyone trying to build 50gs Civics, not that it’s impossible but because you wouldn’t sell a single one. (This is off the subject for all the non-believers that a Civic can’t be tuned to have the performance of a Corvette: the technology is mind blowing, it might takes six digits figure for the process though) Custom makers can yield more money by using higher grade woods. Whether a custom maker is using A grade or AAA grade, he puts in the same amount of time, energy, and enough, so why not use higher grade and charge/make more money.
I am a recreational guitar player, and I have read up on the subject concerning wood grade’s relation to how good a guitar sound. I have learn that master guitar builders do not believe in high grade equates to how good the final product performs. They select by tapping the wood for the sound quality of each piece, then construction technique and craftsmanship comes into play. They could be blind for the sound test. That’s a special skill that would takes years or even decade(s) to acquire, and some may never acquire it no matter how long they are in the business. I think this hold truth to cue makers as well, some just have that special skill which they just know by mysterious ways that a piece of wood is good, and if profit returns was not a concern I think you would see more A grade looking material in cues that are considered high playability cues.
In a blind test, it would be hard to distinguish a cue made from Rosewood, Cocobolo, Bacote, or Ebony, let alone trying to distinguish between A grade and AAA grade, under the condition that the cues are seasoned, built, and constructed the same way and by the same builder.
We all know the ending to the story of the little ugly duckling! I am a believer.
Bill the Cat said:
Do you mean you are starting from boards? You will end up with a lot of waste as well as wasted time. I think it is best to just buy the best dowles you can and spend your valuable time working on your cues. I don't begruge someone else making a living. The final selling price of a cue, even a Sneakey pete, is such that you can easily afford to give the customer the best materials you can get.
IF they warp, they almost always follow the grain.Bill the Cat said:
This is an old topic but the information is still useful to all wanting to know more about the different grades of maple shaft wood.
They all start from boards, then squares, then dowels.
The advantage of a dowel is that you can better judge the grade of the wood.
Hidden defects do pop up sometimes when cutting the shaft down to size and buying pre-tapered dowels from the few suppliers that sell them that way is the best way to see that you are getting top grade.
Course some say they can grade wood by smell before the tree is cut cause they have been in the business for so long.
Buying top grade shaft wood is almost like buying snake oil.
Personally, I prefer the more yellowish shaft wood over the snow white.
The kind of wood you get cutting a shaft from an old house cue.
I think it makes a better shaft ... BUT this is purely a personal opinion.
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JC
Coos Cues
I don't understand how the grain lines outside of 13 mm on the big end of the shaft would have any choice but to run off somewhere before the tip. The tighter the grain the more number of them will run off before reaching the tip.
So what is a "no run off shaft"? Hard concept for my pea brain.
JC
JC
Coos Cues
Will how the wood is sawed affect that too?
Yes.
And how you placed your centers when you doweled your shafts.
When you get squares, make sure they are over 30" long.
Cut off the corners , turn them round.
Then chop them off to 30-31" long.
Then re-center them.
I don't buy pre-centered dowels or cones.
At least half of those aren't centered right.
And that might be too generous.
There's no universal grading system for maple shaft wood. Some use the designation A, B, C, D or 1,2,3 or AAA, etc. Generally speaking expect more grain runout in lesser grade wood and/or lower ring count. With suppliers that sort their wood within the grade, dowels or squares with less sugar or redline might be upgraded while pieces with a good deal of redline might get downgraded. I've been lucky enough to spend a few Michigan afternoons helping sort and grade shaft wood with Chuck Trusdell and Cal Pennington when he had Quality Cut.
There are other maple qualities and characteristics (weight, density, tone, color) that are of importance to many but not all. Most of us know by now that a shaft can be ugly (but usually NOT with respect to grain runout) and be a total gem.
There is a wealth of information (and misinformation) here if someone uses the search function.
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