Another ivory thread to make some go batshit crazy.....oh boy
A Great Synopsis Of The Ivory Ban Re: Pool Cues
- Thread starter Bavafongoul
- Start date
he, he. True dat.
I particularly loved this quote, back up in this thread, from a guy comparing ivory cues to gorilla hand ashtrays and claiming you soon won't be able to play in public with an ivory cue: "I'm not a fan of ivory in cues, but I'm not one of those extremist nutjobs, either."
oh, the irony.
Lou Figueroa
I guess I better stop using my gorilla hand cue holder (the original cue claw), it was pretty handy for league night since it held 4 cues.
What about travelling within the country with a cue with ivory in it? Would it be illegal to go across state lines with that cue even if I am not selling it?
Once the proper authorities find out you are crossing state lines with a cue containing ivory they will hunt you down and when they find you, you will be taken to the gallows.
Thanks for the info.. So you have to prove the cue was constructed before July 7th. How will that be confirmed?
I hope I am wrong but my feeling is that the ivory restrictions will get worse. I like Ivory jointed cues and have a Prewitt with an ivory joint.
I played for years with an ivory ferule on my South West but I've been playing lately with a tiger shaft on that cue.
Most old school one pocket players play with shafts with full ferules. But there are new guys coming up that play with the new LD shafts.
Aside from the extensive documentation I maintain for every cue I have purchased in the resale market.
all of the custom designs I ordered from Bob & Jerry were signed & dated by the cue-maker in the forearm.
The dates on the cues are chronologically consistent with the dates of my communication to my cue-makers.
I can overwhelmingly produce evidence documenting when my cues were built prior to these new ivory regs.
Below are some photos of my custom cues' signatures & dates.
all of the custom designs I ordered from Bob & Jerry were signed & dated by the cue-maker in the forearm.
The dates on the cues are chronologically consistent with the dates of my communication to my cue-makers.
I can overwhelmingly produce evidence documenting when my cues were built prior to these new ivory regs.
Below are some photos of my custom cues' signatures & dates.
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Personally, I love ivory, and I also love the elephants.
But putting those sentiments aside, after the ivory trading ban/restriction, ivory cues will be harder to find, that's true, but the reason is not because of a greater demand, but a restriction in trading. If there's a greater demand, the price will rise. But once you restrict an item in trading, the price will always drop, because it's harder to sell the item.
We can see some big cue owners have already started off loading their cue collections. I think this is sad, but it's a fact.
Hey There Big Cue Owners of Joel Hercek.............
If you have a mid 18 ounce flat ivory joint cue made by Joel Hercek & are developing some angst about the ivory ban,
I understand your concerns & worries so please allow me to help you out with this dire situation by buying your cue.
Cue must be the above specified weight range, maple forearm, veneers & ebony points & anything else is flexible.
We could negotiate an escrow and I'd pick up the cue in Las Vegas and CA's new ivory ban gets legally circumvented.
If you have a mid 18 ounce flat ivory joint cue made by Joel Hercek & are developing some angst about the ivory ban,
I understand your concerns & worries so please allow me to help you out with this dire situation by buying your cue.
Cue must be the above specified weight range, maple forearm, veneers & ebony points & anything else is flexible.
We could negotiate an escrow and I'd pick up the cue in Las Vegas and CA's new ivory ban gets legally circumvented.
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I agree. But that's not the only way ivory is obtained.
Unfortunately a lot of people are being stigmatized because the general public equates ALL ivory with senseless slaughter.
It's a blind double standard if you ask me.
Screw the polar bears and seals. Phuck the whales, dolphins, sea turtles and manatees.
Forget about the birds we slaughter for feathers and the chickens we cage and torture from the moment they're born until we eat them.
Ever seen how a cow is bled out before butchering?
Ever been to a dog pound or animal shelter?
EVER BEEN TO A ZOO?
So many animals out there that we catch, trap, farm, breed, manipulate and hybridize for the SOLE PURPOSE of being slaughtered.
But damn..better be nice to those elephants.
Talk about not getting it and missing the issues completely. You keep confusing other issues that have absolutely no relation to the one being discussed, which is the imminent extinction of a majestic animal because of an unneeded luxury item. Let me clear up the confusion for you.
1. All ivory contributes to the senseless slaughter because it helps to cultivate more desire for ivory. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the more people that see legal ivory, the more people that will want ivory, thereby increasing demand, which increases the slaughter which is already at a rate that is leading to extinction.
It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if ivory trade is legal, many people will fail to see the peril that elephants are in. They will think "well the elephant must really be doing just fine or else they would have already made the ivory trade illegal". When people don't even realize there is an issue, obviously the issue doesn't get addressed. "Elephant numbers and survival are in great peril" and "let's buy and sell ivory" are not compatible ideas to most people so if ivory is legal the elephant must not be in any danger.
2. The issue with elephants is that they are particularly majestic, their numbers are shrinking at an alarming rate, on the present course their extinction in the wild appears to be imminent and not all that far off, and almost all of this is because of a luxury (ivory) that is not even needed and for which there are almost always without exception better suited materials that could have been used anyway.
Are polar bears, seals, whales, dolphins, sea turtles, manatees, birds and chickens facing extinction because of a luxury that we could do without and for which there are almost better materials anyway? The answer is no. None of these are going extinct because of a body part we use as a luxury. Some are not going extinct at all. And for the ones that are, almost all of the people who want to prevent the extinction of the elephant want to prevent the extinction of these animals too. They just don't post about it on a pool forum since it has nothing to do with pool or cues the way that elephants and ivory do.
3. Animal abuse is a completely worthy but a totally different issue than what is being discussed here which is the extinction of a species (and for an unneeded luxury item at that).
4. Nobody that I have seen in this or any other thread is against the slaughter of animals. They are however against making them rare or extinct. And even more so when it is for a luxury item that not only could we easily do without, but that is almost never the best suited material to be used for that purpose anyway. In this day and age ivory is nothing more than a status item. Making any animal extinct is inexcusable, and it is even more inexcusable when it is a particularly majestic animal or for a luxury item that is just for status.
Talk about hypocrisy. I'm not misunderstanding or confusing anything. But thanks for your concern.
None of the animals we torture and slaughter are needed for survival.
None.
None of the animals we have ALREADY driven to extinction were needed for survival.
None.
But now, everyone jumps on the bandwagon for elephants?
Hypocritical orgy of short sighted do gooders talking out of the side of their faces.
Why does an animals status dictate whether or not we can torture and slaughter it?
Oh, there are plenty of cows. Who cares how we treat them, right?
Please, save the elephants. Seriously. Make ivory completely illegal. But don't feed me that holier than thou rhetoric when we shit on so many other species with precision and regularity. Keep on trying to look the other way and justify it.
None of the animals we torture and slaughter are needed for survival.
None.
None of the animals we have ALREADY driven to extinction were needed for survival.
None.
But now, everyone jumps on the bandwagon for elephants?
Hypocritical orgy of short sighted do gooders talking out of the side of their faces.
Why does an animals status dictate whether or not we can torture and slaughter it?
Oh, there are plenty of cows. Who cares how we treat them, right?
Please, save the elephants. Seriously. Make ivory completely illegal. But don't feed me that holier than thou rhetoric when we shit on so many other species with precision and regularity. Keep on trying to look the other way and justify it.
Interesting point right here. I wonder if people even consider where 99 cent eggs or super cheap milk come from.
I spend a pretty good chunk of my budget on food in hope that it comes from reasonably sourced places. My new Diveney cue has 8 small ivory inlays. I don't really advocate either way in these arguments, I just try to do what I think is ok and justified.
justaplayer
Banned
I think the original article misses the following points:
Few if any cue makers can document the origin of ivory used in their cues. Once it is cut and used in a cue, how can one be certain the ivory purchased by legal documented means, is what's in the cue?
Ivory products cannot be sold in several states. 4 I believe, CA and NY for certain. Soon there will be an outright ban on sales in many states. How that woukd ever raise the value of ivory containing cues escapes me. They will be illegal for people to resell . As the laws are written currently it's near impossible to document a legal sale.
Government has stepped in strongly here and the current mindset is not going to change.
Few if any cue makers can document the origin of ivory used in their cues. Once it is cut and used in a cue, how can one be certain the ivory purchased by legal documented means, is what's in the cue?
Ivory products cannot be sold in several states. 4 I believe, CA and NY for certain. Soon there will be an outright ban on sales in many states. How that woukd ever raise the value of ivory containing cues escapes me. They will be illegal for people to resell . As the laws are written currently it's near impossible to document a legal sale.
Government has stepped in strongly here and the current mindset is not going to change.
Well first off, your logic is flawed: four states does not equal "many." And unless you're tracking pending state legislation across the country you can't get to an impending "outright ban in many states."
Second off, I don't believe anyone is claiming that state bans (real or imagined), will be responsible for cues containing ivory going up in price.
It is the fact that many of these cues are beautiful, collectable pieces of functional art. And the reason they will continue to go up in price, just like beautiful collectable musical instruments, guns, knives, and other objects with ivory in them, is because people with money can appreciate them and want to own art.
In fact, all this silly talk makes me want to go out and buy another ivory laden Ginacue
Lou Figueroa
justaplayer
Banned
Well first off, your logic is flawed: four states does not equal "many." And unless you're tracking pending state legislation across the country you can't get to an impending "outright ban in many states."
Second off, I don't believe anyone is claiming that state bans (real or imagined), will be responsible for cues containing ivory going up in price.
It is the fact that many of these cues are beautiful, collectable pieces of functional art. And the reason they will continue to go up in price, just like beautiful collectable musical instruments, guns, knives, and other objects with ivory in them, is because people with money can appreciate them and want to own art.
In fact, all this silly talk makes me want to go out and buy another ivory laden Ginacue
Lou Figueroa
Lou the OP said all this will drive up ivory containing cues. Forbidden fruit logic I guess.
All I know is when the government wants to push an agenda, making laws like these bans...they will make examples of people. Our interpretation of law is irrelevant. In these cases , like Ernie Guitierrez 's you will essentially be guilty until proven innocent. Confiscated cues can be inspected, correction dissected, and a hand written date of manufacture on a forearm or bill of sale won't save you from the tens of thousands of dollars it will cost to beat the rap. That's how the game is played. It's sad but it's what our government has become, especially in politically correct campaigns like this one.
We have no idea what the government wants to do or how vigorously they want to take on the issue of pool cues with ivory in them. In the big scheme of government things it is small potatoes and any kind of large scale inspection, enforcement, and prosecution effort takes money, manpower, and time. Good luck with that.
I think the mistake many are making is the presumption that the government, after an attempted high vis prosecution, is going to continue the witch hunt. No one has any idea what the situation is going to be like five, 10 years from now. But people are acting like the government is going to be breaking down doors, performing raids, and stopping players at every state border over a few pieces of ivory from long dead elephants, in pool cues.
It does not help when there are nut jobs out there trying to whip up a frenzy of paranoia about the issue. No one knows.
Lou Figueroa
What's your point? Are you trying to say that if you ever allow the killing of any animal for any reason that you then have to allow the killing of as many animals you want of any animal you want for any reason you want? That sure sounds like what you are insinuating. If it is, then taking 3 seconds to think that one out will save me having to point out how dumb and devoid of logic that is. It that wasn't your point, then what exactly was? I don't see how it has anything to do with whether we should allow a majestic animal go extinct because we like owning parts of their body as a luxury status symbol or whether we should allow any animal to go extinct for any reason for that matter.
Now it sounds like your point is that if you have ever allowed anything to go extinct then you should never in the future try to do better and prevent it the next time. Similarly dumb and illogical. But again, if that wasn't what you are trying to say, then exactly what are you trying to say?
Can you point me to all these guys (the "everyone") that don't want to elephant to go extinct but don't care if other things go extinct? Or point me to a few? Ok, can you name at least one?
Again, torturing animals is a whole other topic. Nice try at another straw man argument though. Why do you keep mentioning torturing animals when it has nothing to do with the topic which is the imminent extinction of the elephant because we like having bits of their tusks as status symbols?
For the record I am pretty sure most of the people who don't want elephants to go extinct are also opposed to the torturing or animals even though one does not have anything to do with the other.
As for why an animal's status can dictate when we can kill it, well, if you aren't smart enough to figure that one out I highly doubt me or anybody else will be able to explain it in a way that will help you get it. Hint: most people don't like seeing things go extinct where there will never again be a chance to see it in the wild.
Can you point me to all the people who don't want the elephants to go extinct but who don't care that other species are "sh!t on"? Or maybe point me to just a few of them? How about just one? You keep claiming everybody who has made posts saying they don't want elephants to go extinct is in that boat but I don't see any evidence at all to support that so please point it/them out.
Now you're just being stupid with all the assumptions, and trying to twist shit into something it's not. Have fun with that.
And apparently you cannot grasp the meaning of hypocrisy or double standard, as it applies to this elephant treatment situation.
The people you can't seem to find are all around you. Go visit McDonald's and behold the glory. Goto the zoo or an aquarium. Go visit the dog pound. Go visit an animal production farm or fishing vessel. You will meet plenty of people who regularly torture and slaughter animals ( or contribute to the market of) who will also swear up and down that they love elephants and want to see them protected.
The notion that someone who can appreciate ivory is the equivalent of a poacher is like saying if you like boobies, you must be a rapist and support sex trafficking.
Just like the notion that an animal can be tortured and slaughtered "because there are plenty to spare" is retarded. Torture is torture. Slaughter is slaughter. Endangered or not.
But as long as we eat them it's all good. Yeah ok.
Hypocrisy 10 layers deep.
That said, and just so I'm not delivering the wrong message here, I've never purchased or even owned a cue with any ivory. I'm simply making a point. All the Johnny come latelys who are preaching about saving the elephants need to put the issue in proper perspective.
Elephants naturally die every year. Some have to be culled or put down because of illness or disease. Some are used just like a cow, for food and hyde, and nothing is wasted.
Ivory can be humanely harvested and used. Its not inherently evil. And when done properly, no matter how many people don't like it, it's not any different than any other animal product.
And apparently you cannot grasp the meaning of hypocrisy or double standard, as it applies to this elephant treatment situation.
The people you can't seem to find are all around you. Go visit McDonald's and behold the glory. Goto the zoo or an aquarium. Go visit the dog pound. Go visit an animal production farm or fishing vessel. You will meet plenty of people who regularly torture and slaughter animals ( or contribute to the market of) who will also swear up and down that they love elephants and want to see them protected.
The notion that someone who can appreciate ivory is the equivalent of a poacher is like saying if you like boobies, you must be a rapist and support sex trafficking.
Just like the notion that an animal can be tortured and slaughtered "because there are plenty to spare" is retarded. Torture is torture. Slaughter is slaughter. Endangered or not.
But as long as we eat them it's all good. Yeah ok.
Hypocrisy 10 layers deep.
That said, and just so I'm not delivering the wrong message here, I've never purchased or even owned a cue with any ivory. I'm simply making a point. All the Johnny come latelys who are preaching about saving the elephants need to put the issue in proper perspective.
Elephants naturally die every year. Some have to be culled or put down because of illness or disease. Some are used just like a cow, for food and hyde, and nothing is wasted.
Ivory can be humanely harvested and used. Its not inherently evil. And when done properly, no matter how many people don't like it, it's not any different than any other animal product.
I used to not give a s*** if a cue had ivory or not in it.....until.... I got a cue that had an ivory
ferrule joint......my my this stuff is amazing. Very yummy hit.....
Whatever happens with the law I hope there's a substitute that gives similar enough hit.
Ideally man made substitute, that way we don't have to worry about laws like this ever affecting it.
ferrule joint......my my this stuff is amazing. Very yummy hit.....
Whatever happens with the law I hope there's a substitute that gives similar enough hit.
Ideally man made substitute, that way we don't have to worry about laws like this ever affecting it.
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