A-joint construction

S

sliprock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just replaced a broken forearm on a friends cue and took some pics of the A-joint while doing it. There was a huge gap in the old forearm where the hole was drilled about 2 inches longer than the joining pin. Not saying this is wrong, just surprised. This cue hit real good before the break, and really great after my repair:D. Just wondering what everyones thoughts are.



The rest of the before and after pics can be viewed here.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=171487
 
Won't hurt anything. Obviously, that's not where it broke. So long as the "A" joint is solid & faced square, it'll be ok. If the tenon/bore gap was 2" too long, then you'd maybe have a problem. But the screw bore is nothing but air. Lots of people make a big deal of it, and I used to be one of them. But in reality, it's still plenty strong. The depth of the hole has no bearing on the strength except for in the case when it's too short. The only strength determining factor is the diameter of the hole in relation to the outside diameter of the piece it is drilled.

Filling the void with epoxy would likely have voided the questioning, but it was likely not a thought at the time as i'm sure they never expected the cue to be cut into like that. I will agree that 2" too deep is pretty tremendous, though still not actually amounting to any weakness to speak of.
 
Unfortunately you'll find this in some cues and not just production type either. Drill ....tap.....insert object with enormous amounts of glue and hope it all fills the blind voids. Speed and $ is what it's all about for some. Taking the extra time to do it a proper way(not using glue to fill large voids) is what separates the quality from the high quality.....IMO
 
when i do my tenon .750 high and wide. i do my bure about .725 and then reface my tenon til its a perfect fit.

i think having that face area unglued is alot weaker then glued. its alor of contact area. if youre gonna do an ajoint that sloppy then just stay flat faced... i gues older cues were not on the smae thought process as us today

maybe thats what made gus gus
 
dave sutton said:
when i do my tenon .750 high and wide. i do my bure about .725 and then reface my tenon til its a perfect fit.

i think having that face area unglued is alot weaker then glued. its alor of contact area. if youre gonna do an ajoint that sloppy then just stay flat faced... i gues older cues were not on the smae thought process as us today

maybe thats what made gus gus
Click to expand...

I understand this is an area (the A joint glue up) that is not generally seen by the buying prospect but it makes one wonder, where else has limited time been used to assemble the rest of the cue.
 
Don't just assume Gus' cues don't have voids. Even he had a learning curve.

It's not the tenon is question here. It's the bolt hole that's too deep. There needs to be a certain void in order to not prevent proper seating of the faces, but 2" is extreme. Still yet, it has nothing to do with the bond strength of the "A" joint & obviously it held up just fine while a solid part of the wood broke. The cue may very well have been great. This extra length hole didn't effect playability in any way.

What comes to question is why it was so deep in the first place? Why drill that deep? Easy math tells you how deep to drill each component according to the length of the pin and the tollerance of void for face seating. It has nothing to do with cuemakers of then compared to us of now. The technology is the same & commonly known. This builder simply didn't apply it, for whatever reason. And to be honest, it held just fine & apparently played just fine for what looks to be over 20yrs until somebody broke it by jamming the shaft into the table during a break shot, or did something stupid to break the cue below the joint.

I build my cues using as little void as I can get by with & trust that they are strong, but none have yet to see 20+ years of play & abuse. Only time will tell, and in this case, time says this joint was plenty good. We can call it bad & speculate what makes good or great or bad, but who amoung us has 20 year old cues to prove our speculative points? This guy already proved his cuemaking technique stands the test of time, and we criticize it as if it was shoddy work. The fact that I wouldn't do it because of fear of failure & he did do it with great success tells me he obviously knows something about cuemaking that I don't....yet.
 
Cues that are constructed using huge (or not so huge) voids in them will still preform. This I know for a fact. "One" of the things that scare me in this type of construction is a rattle down the road. Just a small piece of the epoxy coming loose in the void from time on the table can be the difference in not preforming anymore. I don't like taking that gamble.
 
Not that it matters but I believe he did not use epoxy.
He used wood glue.
If that hole was filled with quality epoxy, it's an expensive hole.

Drill stops are cheap. Markers on the boring bar, even cheaper.
 
I was mistaken at what i was looking at. I was on my iphone and cant enlarge pics. I agree 100%. Im sure it happens today. Barry showed me how he does his ajoint to get a perfect connection with no gaps. Thats how i do mine too. So i gues i dad some insight on that.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Not that it matters but I believe he did not use epoxy.
He used wood glue.
If that hole was filled with quality epoxy, it's an expensive hole.

Drill stops are cheap. Markers on the boring bar, even cheaper.
Click to expand...

True and true and true.

My tools are all measured & marked & every joint is the same. It's simple technology, nothing new & nothing they didn't know back then. My point was that the cue held up just fine with that joint & likely would have forever if not abused & broken. I wouldn't dare say the technique was correct, because I sure as hell wouldn't do it like that. But on the same token, I can't really say it was a bad job, either, because obviously it was just fine. The proof is in the pudding, not the theory.
 
Sliprock,
May I ask you to describe the 'A' joint that you constructed to install the new forearm? I have a sense of the original construction.
 
sliprock said:
Just replaced a broken forearm on a friends cue and took some pics of the A-joint while doing it. There was a huge gap in the old forearm where the hole was drilled about 2 inches longer than the joining pin. Not saying this is wrong, just surprised. This cue hit real good before the break, and really great after my repair:D. Just wondering what everyones thoughts are.
Click to expand...

Oh ... Man .... now you done it!
That was the resonating cavity.
Most modern day cue makers dont even know about that but the old masters had it down pat.
It takes a lot of experimenting to get that cavity just right for each cue.
Reverberation takes place in that chamber.
It accounts for why the old cues play better than the new ones made today.
Now the tone will not match the hit and the cue will be completely out of tune and it will never play like it did.
 
Last edited:
KJ Cues said:
Sliprock,
May I ask you to describe the 'A' joint that you constructed to install the new forearm? I have a sense of the original construction.
Click to expand...

I duplicated the original as close as I could. I had to bore out and plug the handle, then drill and tap for my bolt. The original had a long piece of all- thread. Other than the different bolt and a smaller gap going up into the forearm the cue is as close to original as I could get. The Forearm tenon was 1 inch long Don't remember off the top of my head the Od. This cue hit great both before and after the repair. I'm just starting to wonder once you get past the tip,ferrule, taper and joint, how much does the cues construction affect the hit. This cue was built in 1985 according to the butt cap and held up great, with no buzzes or funny noises. This cue was the poolroom Whore for several years, getting passed around from player to pawn shop to player. Had a rough life. I took the job to fix this cue only because the owner is a friend. It took me 3-4 years to get the confidence to even start the repair.
 
Thank you for your response. It would appear that your confidence has served you well. Enjoy the rest of your journey.

PS. Oh, and in response to what you are wondering, had you constructed the 'A' joint incorrectly, you would have had your answer in short order. Everything has a part to play in a cues hit, just in varying degrees. Job well done.
 
Last edited:
Does the cue play any better with the cavity plugged?

I wouldn't expect much, but you would think it might feel more solid.

What about a shaft that has a similar cavity in front of the pin, difference or no?

I always thought it was all those little (or not so little) gaps and voids that made a production cue unpredictable. That and the wood, naturally.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top