A joint issue

J

josie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am fairly new at cuemaking and need some of your guys expertise. Sometimes after I put the handle and forearm together there is runout at the a joint. I just did another a joint and when I put the cue between centers there is about .030" of runout. the forearm and handle are still quite a bit oversize and I know I could turn the runout out. My question is should I just junk the cue now or turn the runout out of it. The cue has no points so I am not worried about even points. I have successfully done a joints before and the points turn out dead even so I know I can do it just not every time. I cannot figure out what is different with ones that end up perfect and the ones I screw up.

Thanks in advance for the advice.
 
A picture or description of the male part would help.
How do you face the two pieces?
 
I use a porper model b and face the handle and the forearm in the headstock. The forearm has a 5/8 tenon that is 1/4" long and 3/8-10 screw in it. I attatch that to the handle which is also tapped 3/8-10.
 
Indicate the pieces before facing and boring .
Get the runout down to less than .001.
I don't how accurate the inside spindle of the Porper lathe though.
The ends there could be wobbling.
 
i use a dead center mounted in the rear 3 jaw chuck facing into the through hole. I then put the centerhole of the forearm into the dead center and tighten the other three jaw chuck down so they are turning true.
 
not sure how you do your a-joint but i would guess you have a face issue.i use a Porper for tips and ferrules sometimes and honestly don't see how the Porper cue do faces properly on big pieces of wood.i wouldn't think the machine would get very true faces on anything larger than 3/4" or so.

aside form all of that whenever i have runout at the a-joint it seems to be my faces.
 
I try to do all my facing between centers, with no problems. My only problems have come from over tightening the 2 pieces when assembling. I'll try using witness marks as Dave B. suggested.

Rodney
 
Rodney said:
My only problems have come from over tightening the 2 pieces when assembling.

Rodney
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he said it right here. i had the same issues when i started. when you torque the joint together you throw the faces off. i hold both ends loosely in my hands and tighten til is stops then a hair more and i mean a hair. the epoxy will do its job and the cue will play solid.

as for this cue with no points and oversized it will turn out. but learn from this mistake bc if you ever make a cue with points and you have run out in the a joint it will throw the points off and your cue will be worthless
 
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I start with a 1.5" piece of LBP that I have trued and bored to .650. I use a center rest to square my prong before installing the deco rings onto the tenon. I then drill and tap my hole for the A-joint pin and make a true up pass on the face of the deco-rings. I then turn the tenon so that it is a snug fit half way into the Phenolic. I then glue the phenolic into place and face it and re-bore the hole to around .675. I now put the tapered handle into the center rest, drill and tap and form a tenon on the handle so that the phenolic on the prong is a snug fit onto this tenon. I then put in the correct size stud that I want to use for the weight and balance point that I'm looking for. Fill everything with West system and pull the prong and handle together as tightly as I possibly can using a latex glove so as to get a better grip. If the surfaces are square the prong will turn true.

The facings must be perfectly square or the prong will pull off when tightened. If you must leave the A-joint loose and let glue fill the cavities then the facings are not square and your set-up needs to be trued. The steady rest, the tail-stock or if you are running between two chucks one of them is not correctly centered for good work.

Dick

DSC_000215.jpg
 
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Fill everything with West system and pull the prong and handle together as tightly as I possibly can using a latex glove so as to get a better grip. If the surfaces are square the prong will turn true.
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glad i read this,i was starting to get worried b/c i torque the heck out of mine.in fact i hold one end and get my buddy to hold the other and then we both crank.
 
As stated in previous posts- what ever your A-Joint method is- your tolerances should be tight enough to be able to dry-fit the handle/ prong assembly between centers and check your run-out.

If everything is good at the dry-fit stage, then make your witness marks.

I might mention that some (as I) do not tighten the handle down all the way w/o letting the glue set up some to help with the hydrolic pressure here.

You still need to check your run-out after gluing- before the glue sets up completely- and you can move your A-joint around some if need be.

You again should check your run-out AFTER the glue has dried- before making any od passes- and you can still move your center in your handle some- before taking any materal from prong.

IMO- Check, check, and check again, never assume anything- especially if you do not have dedicated machines and have to set up and tear down for several different operations :wink:
-Chris
 
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A joint runout

You didn't mention whether you have ring work at the A joint, but if you do that could be the problem. Even if there is no runout when you "dry fit", I have never had good luck doing an A joint with rings in "one shot".

I now glue up the rings on the tenon and then recut the tenon and face off the ring work before jointing the handle and forearm.

I also make the fit of the tenon a tiny bit on the loose side so the fit of the tenon will not prevent the faces from coming into full (square) contact.
 
i did glue the rings on first and then reface them before installing the handle, but i did not retrue the tenon. do you guys think i should junk the cue and start over?
 
josie said:
i did glue the rings on first and then reface them before installing the handle, but i did not retrue the tenon. do you guys think i should junk the cue and start over?
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No I don't think you should junk the cue. You can turn the wobble out like it is, or if you are afraid of the pin being off center in the middle of the cue here is what to do. Cut up thin strips of business cards and wedge your center over on the handle end of the cue until the middle turns true. Take a couple of clean up passes to true the back end up with the middle. Then fill the center hole with epoxy putty or plain epoxy and recenter drill. Either way the cue should be fine.
 
josie said:
I am fairly new at cuemaking and need some of your guys expertise.
No problem...that's what the ask the cue dude section is all about.
Sometimes after I put the handle and forearm together there is runout at the a joint.
This can be a huge problem.
I just did another a joint and when I put the cue between centers there is about .030" of runout.
WOW......That is a huge problem!
the forearm and handle are still quite a bit oversize and I know I could turn the runout out.
Between the existing centers is not a good idea.
My question is should I just junk the cue now or turn the runout out of it.
That depends on a few things.
The cue has no points so I am not worried about even points.
This should not be the only worry even on solid cues.
I have successfully done a joints before and the points turn out dead even so I know I can do it just not every time.
Why not every time?.... is what you need to figure out.

I cannot figure out what is different with ones that end up perfect and the ones I screw up.
I'm going to take a stab at it and say...."repeatability".....you are not doing the procedure exactly the same way every time.

Thanks in advance for the advice.
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We can tell you how to do it but it would be more helpful if you write down in detail every step you take on your procedure and the equipment and tools you use to try and get this done. There are many different ways to assemble the A joint.

I also typed in A joint in the search feature of this fine forum and told it to search in the Ask the Cuemaker section only. It returned over 1000 hits.
Have you tried using this feature and search for your possible educational experience?

It would also help us, help you, if you explained in detail the methods and what tools are you using?

<~~~been told I can sound condescending in my replies, but really, just trying to help.............
 
"...I also typed in A joint in the search feature of this fine forum and told it to search in the Ask the Cuemaker section only. It returned over 1000 hits.
Have you tried using this feature and search for your possible educational experience?..."


Dave- Great point... I always forget that part...

-Chris
"supporting the continuing quality of answers in this section"
 
how i do the a joint

OK this could get confusing. I am using a porper model b with the optional rear chuck.

Step 1. I put a long dead center into the rear chuck facing into the through spindle. I then take an .080" oversize tapered forearm and put it into the 3 jaw chuck and have the center drilled hole at the front of the forearm go into the dead center. It now sticks out the headstock about 2".

2. I then turn a 5/8" tenon on the forearm and install dec. rings and glue up.
3. reinstall the forearm into lathe and face rings off. i now have about a 5/8" tenon exposed past rings .250"

3. drill and tap forearm for 3/8-10 pin. epoxy and insert pin using drill chuck in tailstock and make sure it is turning true.

4. mount handle same way in lathe as forearm. face off. drill and tap to receive 3/8-10 pin. bore out to 5/8" x .280" to recieve tenon.

5. remount forearm same way into lathe. put epoxy on pin and dec. ring face and tenon.

6. turn lathe on very slowly.

7. take handle and put rear center drilled hole in live center on tailstock. push tailstock toward spinning forearm while holding handle and let the turning lathe start to screw the peices togetjer as i lightly hold the handle from spinning and push the tailstock as it threads together.

8. stop lathe whent the two peices get lose to touching and tighten by hand.

now i think i have done everyting pefect and sometimes it turns true and sometimes does'nt.

I hope you guys can follow this description. I typed it and it sounds way more complicated than it actually is.(i think i have even confused myself)

thanks everyone for putting up with me.

p.s. - chris hightower, thanks for the advice. I have bought your book and use it alot.
 
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