A joint issue

1b. How long is this center? How much of it sticks into the spindle out from the jaws? How do you know this end is running true? I use a steady rest in front of my jaws. This lets me check the jaws and the material sticking out of the steady rest so I know it is turning true.

3b. Drill and BORE- bore to the diameter of the lead on your tap- does it have a lead? Drills can walk. If it walks- the tap will follow the crooked hole.

Are you checking to make sure your pin is running true after you glue it in?

1/4" tennon into the handle...are you comfortable with this length?

Oh so many questions...;)
 
josie said:
OK this could get confusing. I am using a porper model b with the optional rear chuck.

Step 1. I put a long dead center into the rear chuck facing into the through spindle. I then take an .080" oversize tapered forearm and put it into the 3 jaw chuck and have the center drilled hole at the front of the forearm go into the dead center. It now sticks out the headstock about 2".
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How do you know the dead center is running true?
 
josie said:
OK this could get confusing. I am using a porper model b with the optional rear chuck.

Step 1. I put a long dead center into the rear chuck facing into the through spindle. I then take an .080" oversize tapered forearm and put it into the 3 jaw chuck and have the center drilled hole at the front of the forearm go into the dead center. It now sticks out the headstock about 2".

2. I then turn a 5/8" tenon on the forearm and install dec. rings and glue up.
3. reinstall the forearm into lathe and face rings off. i now have about a 5/8" tenon exposed past rings .250"

3. drill and tap forearm for 3/8-10 pin. epoxy and insert pin using drill chuck in tailstock and make sure it is turning true.

4. mount handle same way in lathe as forearm. face off. drill and tap to receive 3/8-10 pin. bore out to 5/8" x .280" to recieve tenon.

5. remount forearm same way into lathe. put epoxy on pin and dec. ring face and tenon.

6. turn lathe on very slowly.

7. take handle and put rear center drilled hole in live center on tailstock. push tailstock toward spinning forearm while holding handle and let the turning lathe start to screw the peices togetjer as i lightly hold the handle from spinning and push the tailstock as it threads together.

8. stop lathe whent the two peices get lose to touching and tighten by hand.

now i think i have done everyting pefect and sometimes it turns true and sometimes does'nt.

I hope you guys can follow this description. I typed it and it sounds way more complicated than it actually is.(i think i have even confused myself)

thanks everyone for putting up with me.

p.s. - chris hightower, thanks for the advice. I have bought your book and use it alot.
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I think the number one thing you have to look at is the facing off of anything with it sticking out of the headstock and expecting it to be perpendicular to the center line of your lathe and to the piece being faced off. I do "rough" facings only this way but if you expect a precision facing it has to be done dialed in with a steady rest or between centers using a half dead center that is properly dialed in on the lathe.
Everything has to be glued up and the last two pieces to be drawn together faced off in this manner to get the repeatable process your looking for.
Anything else is just a punt.....IMO.
There are some other small factors that come in to play but having two faces opposite of each other that are perpendicular to the center lines of each piece are the most critical for getting where you want to end up.
 
Only if you're in a hurry (IMHO). And, if you're in a hurry, you're in the wrong business.
There's value in finding a way to get to where you want to go from here.
 
2nd try

I just got done doing anther a joint with the same kind of wood and it came out perfect. the things I concentrated on were less epoxy on the mating faces and very little epoxy on the tenon to make sure there was no hydraulic lock or issue like that. the other thing i did different was just snug the two pieces together. i think this is where alot of us new guys go wrong. i just had the two faces touch and then just a little turn to make sure everything was mated up. i am pretty sure this has been my main problem most of the time because i was tightening them as tight as i could turn by hand.

thanks everyone for the help.
 
josie said:
I just got done doing anther a joint with the same kind of wood and it came out perfect. the things I concentrated on were less epoxy on the mating faces and very little epoxy on the tenon to make sure there was no hydraulic lock or issue like that. the other thing i did different was just snug the two pieces together. i think this is where alot of us new guys go wrong. i just had the two faces touch and then just a little turn to make sure everything was mated up. i am pretty sure this has been my main problem most of the time because i was tightening them as tight as i could turn by hand.

thanks everyone for the help.
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Everyone has their own parameters when building a cue. It certainly is not for me to say what is the correct way to accomplish a task when building a cue as it's not my name that will be on it. There are many roads to Rome as they say. With this being said, I would like to say that, in my opinion, doing the A-joint in this manner, is like covering a burned steak with a lot of gravy. May look good when completed but it is still a burned steak. Not using a tight A-joint is just covering a bad technique or non correctly set up equipment.

Dick
 
you need to by a dial indicator , either a plunger type or lever type.
Then you can see what the runout is at the chuck end and at the back end of the head stock.
Some one had some for sale just recently. Not sure who.
Neil
 
conetip said:
you need to by a dial indicator , either a plunger type or lever type.
Then you can see what the runout is at the chuck end and at the back end of the head stock.
Some one had some for sale just recently. Not sure who.
Neil
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You're probably thinking of this post by HAL.
Mr H
 
just because the ajoint isn't tightened down as much as humanly possible doesn't make it wrong. I snug it them turn a hair more and I get no run out. All my tenons are cut to a perfect fit. I glue on my phenolic and let it sit overnight then reface and cut tenon to perfect size. Cues always play very solid

IMO tightening the ajoint too tight and smashing the end grain is not right for me atleast.
 
dave sutton said:
IMO tightening the ajoint too tight and smashing the end grain is not right for me atleast.
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That's where deep hole and long tenons help imo.
As Dick Neighbors said, that's the register. Not the bolt.
 
Have you ever put that dead center into the rear chuck (facing out) & checked the runout, with a dial indicator, of that chuck? When that LONG dead center is inside the lathe, you have no way of checking the trueness or runout. I'd find a different way to mount your pieces in the lathe, so that you have some kind of control. I also don't like such a short tenon. I have always used a 1' long tenon...JER
 
As reading the previous posts I was just thinking the same thing Jerry posted and got to the end and he had already addressed it.
If it turns out to be the center being off is the problem, which is my guess as it really sounds like you are doing most everything okay in your facing and assembly process, here is a suggestion. I used to buy point blanks from Burton Spain and the short blanks never came in tapered. Instead they were cut straight for half the length of the forearm and then stepped down and cut straight the front half. This allowed Him to chuck up on the forearm without having to rely on anything inside his headstock to hold either end. I am guessing he did his handles the same way.
Next option and a even better one in my opinion is to have a custom steady rest made so you can work on faces out in front of the headstock. I have used the steady rest in front of and behind the headstock for years and am convinced it is one of the best and easiest ways to get both ends turning true.
 
cueman said:
As reading the previous posts I was just thinking the same thing Jerry posted and got to the end and he had already addressed it.
If it turns out to be the center being off is the problem, which is my guess as it really sounds like you are doing most everything okay in your facing and assembly process, here is a suggestion. I used to buy point blanks from Burton Spain and the short blanks never came in tapered. Instead they were cut straight for half the length of the forearm and then stepped down and cut straight the front half. This allowed Him to chuck up on the forearm without having to rely on anything inside his headstock to hold either end. I am guessing he did his handles the same way.
Next option and a even better one in my opinion is to have a custom steady rest made so you can work on faces out in front of the headstock. I have used the steady rest in front of and behind the headstock for years and am convinced it is one of the best and easiest ways to get both ends turning true.
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I agree. I have chucks on the front and rear of the lathes that I use for normal cue work and the rear chucks are pretty accurate and are quick and accurate for most operations, however, they are not perfect. I have found that when the facing is critical, such as facing for the A-joint or shaft joint, out comes the center rest. Without removing the spindle from a lathe and machining the rear for a proper fit of a chuck, it's nearly impossible to have it run as true as the front chuck.

Dick
 
Poulos Cues said:
As stated in previous posts- what ever your A-Joint method is- your tolerances should be tight enough to be able to dry-fit the handle/ prong assembly between centers and check your run-out.

If everything is good at the dry-fit stage, then make your witness marks.

I might mention that some (as I) do not tighten the handle down all the way w/o letting the glue set up some to help with the hydrolic pressure here.

You still need to check your run-out after gluing- before the glue sets up completely- and you can move your A-joint around some if need be.

You again should check your run-out AFTER the glue has dried- before making any od passes- and you can still move your center in your handle some- before taking any materal from prong.

IMO- Check, check, and check again, never assume anything- especially if you do not have dedicated machines and have to set up and tear down for several different operations :wink:
-Chris
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Chris, you are WAY to helpful to only have one "greenie." Would someone else reward this man with some REP please?
Mr H
 
greenie

Mr Hoppe said:
Chris, you are WAY to helpful to only have one "greenie." Would someone else reward this man with some REP please?
Mr H
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I gave em one...

Larry
 
rhncue said:
I agree. I have chucks on the front and rear of the lathes that I use for normal cue work and the rear chucks are pretty accurate and are quick and accurate for most operations, however, they are not perfect. I have found that when the facing is critical, such as facing for the A-joint or shaft joint, out comes the center rest. Without removing the spindle from a lathe and machining the rear for a proper fit of a chuck, it's nearly impossible to have it run as true as the front chuck.

Dick
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You are right. Even on my Deluxe Cue Smith with rear chuck, I still use the steady rest when facing. I love using a rod in the rear chuck as an internal stop so I can quickly face all sleeves off to the same length and such, installing rings on a forearm and center drilling dowels. But like you said, when it comes to facing out comes the steady rest.
 
Mr Hoppe said:
Chris, you are WAY to helpful to only have one "greenie." Would someone else reward this man with some REP please?
Mr H
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Hey thanks! you too Larry :D

What ARE these "greenies" all about anyways??

"inquiring minds need to know"
-Chris
 
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