"A" Joint Screw Question

JC

JC

Coos Cues
I am getting started in cue building and have acquired a pretty good tooling start and mostly have been learning the fundamentals of each required skill and practicing a lot on scraps. I have also been reading all I can here in the archives and have a question about the "A" joint.

There has been much discussion here over the years with a lot of different ideas and techniques. I wonder why people don't use a simple tenon and a screw designed for the job instead of using threaded rod and trying to make wood behave like metal for those using a screw and not threading the wood itself.

0144687_hr4c.jpg

This is what I'm talking about and they come in all lengths and diameters. Since all the screw does is act as an internal clamp for the glue and variable weight why not keep it simple? Probably a stupid question but wondering if there is a down side to using these other than they aren't fancy or hard to install and center? I have made a few test joints and drilled the hole about half way between minor and major diameter of the screws and the joints have all come out dead straight with a simple screwing of them together. Thanks for reading and any thoughts would be appreciated.

JC
 
If you are going to use a pin, use an all thread pin and make certain your tolerances are tight. Use a slow setting epoxy and you should be i good shape. Of course you can use different metal pins for weight purposes.
 
Last edited:
Russell Cues said:
If you are going to use a pin, use an all thread pin and make certain your tolerances are tight. Use a slow setting epoxy and you should be i good shape. Of course you can use different metal pins for weight purposes.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Tony. I know a lot of builders are using threaded rod. My question is why is it better to use a threaded rod and drill and tap the holes than to use a screw designed to self tap the wood as the one I pictured? Assuming your holes are cut to the proper size as not to stress the wood screwing it in and your tenon is cut to proper tolerances and your parts are faced off cleanly? I know there must be good reasons and I'm wondering what they are.

JC
 
Most cue makers just follow suit & do what other cue makers do or say they should do. That's certainly not the case with everything every cue maker does, but it is common. That said, the "A" joint is an area that has been experimented to no end with various methods & adhesives, etc. Your idea may prove to be perfect for you, and no doubt you'll continue to experiment and develop it. That's a good thing. And perhaps you'll find a way to make it work.

When I experimented with a double end lag like that, I tried a few different sizes. As you mentioned, I had to get the hole to correct size in order to not put too much stress on the wood or else it would crack. Once I did, the cues did indeed go together straight & seemed quite solid. However, as I do with any "A" joint experiment, I would put a lot of lateral force on the cues & every single time the cue would snap in half or else develop a nasty buzz. It goes without saying that any "A" joint would fail with enough pressure, but these ones failed quickly, with much less resistance than just a typical 3/8-16 or 3/8-10 threaded rod with cut threads. I attributed it to the screw minor being noticeably smaller than the hole it threads into, leaving a lot of void to be filled with glue. That's just my own personal experience & observation. I never tried it again. You may get it right & build some awesome cues with the method. And that's what matters, the end product. You can put the cue together with bubble gum, and if it holds & plays well, then who's to say it's wrong?
 
I say make some mock-ups.
Get some inexpensive maple and/or oak or purpleheart pieces.
Do some assembly. Take notes what u did .
See which ones assemble straight .
Then torture them.
See which ones hold up and which ones start rattling .

I did some mock-ups on epoxy at the A-joint too.
Place the assembled pieces in the trunk of my car .
After a few weeks , some started to rattle but one with a popular epoxy.
I have stuck with that epoxy since .

Don't be afraid to make mock-ups. They're just cheap wood anyway.

My A-joint has no metal screws or studs .
It consists of wood step tenon, wood threads and a threaded phenolic tube .
 
JC said:
Thanks for the reply Tony. I know a lot of builders are using threaded rod. My question is why is it better to use a threaded rod and drill and tap the holes than to use a screw designed to self tap the wood as the one I pictured? Assuming your holes are cut to the proper size as not to stress the wood screwing it in and your tenon is cut to proper tolerances and your parts are faced off cleanly? I know there must be good reasons and I'm wondering what they are.

JC
Click to expand...

I wouldn't use a self tapping screw being you cant guarantee that it will go in straight ev3ry time, imo. I use this
http://www.msdiscount.com/columnar....gy72EEd8NJE-&compidcookieset&sessioncookieset

If your tail stock is in line with your chuck you can tap very straight. The next level is live tooling. What Eric and Joey said is very good advice, experiment and use what works for your cues. Even if we all spelled out our a-joint construction it may not work for your cues.
 
Last edited:
JC said:
I am getting started in cue building and have acquired a pretty good tooling start and mostly have been learning the fundamentals of each required skill and practicing a lot on scraps. I have also been reading all I can here in the archives and have a question about the "A" joint.

There has been much discussion here over the years with a lot of different ideas and techniques. I wonder why people don't use a simple tenon and a screw designed for the job instead of using threaded rod and trying to make wood behave like metal for those using a screw and not threading the wood itself.

This is what I'm talking about and they come in all lengths and diameters. Since all the screw does is act as an internal clamp for the glue and variable weight why not keep it simple? Probably a stupid question but wondering if there is a down side to using these other than they aren't fancy or hard to install and center? I have made a few test joints and drilled the hole about half way between minor and major diameter of the screws and the joints have all come out dead straight with a simple screwing of them together. Thanks for reading and any thoughts would be appreciated.

JC
Click to expand...


JC,

When making an A joint cue I always used a 1/2" x 13 threaded rod.

It adds a considerable more weight to the butt in front of the centerline of the butt.

Rick



Before developing my current method in 2011 of tapering my forearm that was already cored & glued to a 3/4" X 30 inch dowel, then milling my v grooves and installing points, I made up my A joint with 1/2" 13 rod in a 3/4" dowel and forearm, then installed cored handle,rings and butt sleeve on the dowel. This method does not have a buzz ring during the A Joint glue up and I would hard tighten the dowel face to the inner recess of the inner face of the forearm bore hole and I did not leave an inner face gap. The concentricity was right on after building the entire cue and tapering and never had a buzz. There are many ways to skin a cat concerning cue construction and engineering.

As all the guys are saying, experiment with different things and see where you land concerning your method that is exclusive to your cues. Everything little thing you do makes a difference on how your individual cue hits and plays! Find what works for you. That is what makes cue making so interesting. Like basket weaving in a nut house. LOL

 
Last edited:
Russell Cues said:
I wouldn't use a self tapping screw being you cant guarantee that it will go in straight ev3ry time, imo. I use this
http://www.msdiscount.com/columnar....gy72EEd8NJE-&compidcookieset&sessioncookieset

QUOTE]

Using these tap aids are the only way to tap in cuemaking IMO. It really makes a difference. How good are those in your link? I have one from CC and really liked it, and then I bought a set off ebay later on and they were crap. If these are good quality, I'll be buying some. Thanks for the link.
dave
Click to expand...
 
Using these tap aids are the only way to tap in cuemaking IMO. It really makes a difference. How good are those in your link? I have one from CC and really liked it, and then I bought a set off ebay later on and they were crap. If these are good quality, I'll be buying some. Thanks for the link.
dave
Click to expand...
I tap fine ( radial tap ) without a tap aid .
Just release the tailstock but lock the quill and let it follow.
We are tapping wood, not metal.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top