How about SPAM Rating...
(S) Special
(P) Pool
(A) Automated
(M) Measurement
Could be called a SPAM Tool.
A League That Encourages Improvement
- Thread starter BeiberLvr
- Start date
How about SPAM Rating...
(S) Special
(P) Pool
(A) Automated
(M) Measurement
Could be called a SPAM Tool.
I dont believe this is true with "most" APA players. I'll give you maybe 50%, but I believe most of the people I play against strive to get better. Had I never joined APA, I would have never had the initiative to improve. Now I am obsessed with it and Ive gone from a 3 to a 5 in one year and I am not satisfied. I want to become one of the best in my area and I work at it every day. I can agree that for many it is a social event but I think almost everyone thats a 5 or higher wants to get better.
What if the 412 wins their match though? Same thing? The 412 goes to 431, and the 317 goes to 298?
I feel a take-over happening!
The time is ripe for a New Order.
The time is ripe for a New Order.
Yes
Except I do like my addendum of the loser only going down 5% of the difference
So in this case the 317 would be lowered to a 312
Interesting ideas but I do still see lots of problems. What I think best accomplishes what you are trying to accomplish is actually pretty easy to do.
Simply use the most accurate and precise rating system you can (which happens to be FargoRate by a million miles), and handicap to where the higher rated player in each match is always the slight favorite to win instead of their chances being 50/50. Make the better rated player say a 55% favorite to win a match, or even a 66% favorite to win the match, or whatever number you feel makes the most sense for the players in your area and what you are trying to accomplish. For example, if a 500 and a 600 play each other, a dead even match would have the 600 needing to win 8 games before the 500 wins 4 games, because they will average an 8 to 4 record over time in races to 8. So instead of having the 500 need to win 4 games before the 600 wins 8, have the 500 needing to win 5 games before the 600 wins 8. Now the higher rated player in the match up, the 600, has an advantage in the match, and will win more often and feel his skill is being rewarded, but the 500 will still win often enough to keep them interested too. You can also keep all the people and all the money all in one division this way too.
Doing handicaps this way does many things:
---It gives everyone the incentive to improve, because the higher you are rated, the more people you will have the advantage over in match ups, and the more often you will win.
---Unlike some handicapping systems, it does not drive the better players away because they will still win more often than the lower rated players do, and they still feel they are being rewarded for their greater skill, and at the same time they will also understand that the lower rated players need something so they don't always get blown out of the water and can still win from time to time too.
---It does not drive the lower rated players away either because they will be understanding of the fact that the better players should have an advantage to reward their greater skill, yet they will still be able to win often enough to keep themselves interested and not demoralized, and not just winning some matches, but even winning tournaments or league sessions from time to time too (although not as often as the better players do, which they know is the way it should be).
---Keeps all the money in one division where a larger prize pool is more appealing to everybody, yet on average the better players will still be winning a bigger share of the money than the lesser players.
I personally think the page needs some work on how it is laid out, but FargoRate already has exactly what I am talking about under the "Match Charts" section at http://fairmatch.fargorate.com/ where you can choose how much advantage you want the better rated player to have in any match up. I have also seen a chart posted on here (I believe posted by robsnotes4u) that also showed how to handicap with FargoRate where the higher rated player still always has "X" amount of an advantage. Fargo Billiards also used to have a youtube video online that explained how to do it as well depending on how much advantage you wanted the higher rated player to have, although I think the video has been removed, but in any case it isn't that difficult to do and you can always still use the "Match Charts" option at the link below to help.
http://fairmatch.fargorate.com/
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JC
Coos Cues
Not a bad concept but the shortstop division is pretty diverse. May need to split into two.
I'm a 600 fargo and could probably play a 500 for hours without them winning a game. And I've gambled short sets with high 600s before and it wasn't a pretty sight for my wallet. Imagine a 525 up against a 675?
JC
I'm a 600 fargo and could probably play a 500 for hours without them winning a game. And I've gambled short sets with high 600s before and it wasn't a pretty sight for my wallet. Imagine a 525 up against a 675?
JC
I just dont get your line of thinking. If I read your post right you are stating a higher level player should have a ...up to 66% chance of winning.
Based on what ?
To keep them from having an easily bruised ego by making it harder for a lower level player to win a match ?
Giving a higher level player player more of a chance to win simply because he practiced more than a lower level player ?
In my opinion every match should be a 50/50 chance for every player whether league or gambling ...if you are using a handicap.... Other wise just play straight up even.
Your thoughts on manipulating the odds of a player winning based on their handicap smacks of favoritism to the higher level player. If Fargo is as accurate as you claim I see nothing wrong with giving both players a 50/50 chance and whoever is playing their best on that day wins.
Your line of thought sounds like a hustler matching up and giving an opponent what he wants but not what he needs.
It also sounds like you want to penalize the guys who love playing pool but due to finances and family cant afford the time away from family or money to take lessons etc.
Also I keep reading about incentive to improve by giving higher payouts to higher levels.
I have 2 thoughts on that.
One is ...does the whatever higher payout offset the costs associated with improving ?
The second is...not everyone aspires to be the next svb.
You don't think having better skills and performance should be rewarded?
With gambling people have the luxury to set the match for whatever odds they want and agree to. In handicapped leagues and tournaments they don't have that luxury so it really should be the best compromise, the best one size fits all. The question the thread is about though is how can you handicap in such a way so as to give incentive to improve, or remove incentive not to improve. I would argue that what I proposed, always giving the slight advantage to the stronger player, is the most fair way to handicap, would attract the most people, and actually addresses the question that this thread was about.
As far as 50/50 handicaps go, I feel you might as well just flip a coin instead of playing in a handicap system where all the odds are truly dead even because chance is ultimately determining things. I don't see the point of playing a game of skill if you are going to let chance decide who wins. Just flip a coin and save yourself some time instead.
I guess you could look at it that way. I see it as people deserving to be rewarded for superior skills, the same way you would want a better salary than your coworker if you have better skills and performance than they did. On the flip side though, what I proposed still allows lesser players to win their share so it is still fun for them, they don't get demoralized, and it removes their incentive to not want to improve, which is what this thread was about.
Keep in mind the topic of this thread, which essentially is that if you are going to handicap, how can you do it in such a way as to encourage improvement and discourage sandbagging? I think it is a good question and my answer kept that in mind and addressed it. Your suggestions are not addressing it at all and I think you either missed the question or just forgot about the question when you made your post.
The hall I frequent in a way has the same thing going on, but without the ratings. There is league Tues, Wed, and Thurs.
Tues night league is mostly folks just starting out, with a few that can play decent. They are definitely what I would describe as social players. They play to have a few drinks, play some pool, and have a good time. There are some that are competitive, but mostly it's a "fun night".
Wed night is a Vegas league and is pretty darn competitive. This league is made up of folks that do want to go to Vegas, and those that do not care about going, but like to play someone that will fire back. It's an all cash league, and the teams split up the cash at the end of the year.
Thurs night league is what I would call the intermediate players, and actually some of these folks have come over to play the Thurs night league. The majority of these folks really do want to improve, not just have a social night out.
At the end of the year, the owners put on a nice feed for each league, and reserve around 8-10 tables for the players to play on. Often they will organize a tournament with scotch doubles teams, putting the top ranked players with a lower ranked player (all the leagues are handicapped).
There is very little sand bagging going on seeing as the end of the year is cash money, so really that is not much of a problem.
I like your idea of the points system, and it probably could work.
Tues night league is mostly folks just starting out, with a few that can play decent. They are definitely what I would describe as social players. They play to have a few drinks, play some pool, and have a good time. There are some that are competitive, but mostly it's a "fun night".
Wed night is a Vegas league and is pretty darn competitive. This league is made up of folks that do want to go to Vegas, and those that do not care about going, but like to play someone that will fire back. It's an all cash league, and the teams split up the cash at the end of the year.
Thurs night league is what I would call the intermediate players, and actually some of these folks have come over to play the Thurs night league. The majority of these folks really do want to improve, not just have a social night out.
At the end of the year, the owners put on a nice feed for each league, and reserve around 8-10 tables for the players to play on. Often they will organize a tournament with scotch doubles teams, putting the top ranked players with a lower ranked player (all the leagues are handicapped).
There is very little sand bagging going on seeing as the end of the year is cash money, so really that is not much of a problem.
I like your idea of the points system, and it probably could work.
Well sir....i guess we are going to have to agree to disagree :wink:
You prefer to reward the player that is able to devote the time and money to improve his level of play while I would prefer not to penalize the family man that loves pool just as much as the better player but due to family obligations is not able to devote the time and money to improve.
I believe I did acknowledge what the thread is about in my last sentence....not everyone aspires to be the next svb.
I also stated that I wonder if whatever little added money at the higher levels would offset the time and expenses incurred in obtaining a higher level. Would not that question be addressing the topic of this thread ?
Regarding sandbagging.....you will.never eliminate it in any handicapped league.
Upon reading my remarks regarding this subject that I am an spa 5 who not only plays in handicapped divisions but also masters.
Apa masters addresses everything this thread is about. No handicaps....no reason to sandbag....gives you the opportunity to play better players...and hopefully learn something each match. The better player will always win that day regardless of handicap because its an even race to 7 utilizing both 8 and 9 ball and its possible to not even play 8 ball if you win 9 ball by a score of 7-0 or 7-1.
I play masters for several reasons but the 2 main ones are.
1. I believe you can get better...eventually....by playing better players.
2. When I win a match its because I was the better player....that day. Does not mean I am the better player just because I am a 5 and I beat an 8 that day. And I don't like hearing.. The only reason you beat me is cause you was going to 3 and I was going to 5 so you mud be a sandbagger. It's just straight up you bring your best in a race to 7. Pushouts and jump cues allowed.
Back to the op's topic. I realize that money makes the world go around but I really dont think a few extra dollars at the end of a session is going to entice a whole lot of people to spend a whole lot of hours and money to improve .
You either want to be the best you can be....or not.
You are acting like my suggestion was to play even where a crappy player will never win anything. What I said, was that for handicapped leagues, make it to where the better player always has a slight advantage. The crappy players will still win some, but the better players will win a bit more. Like you said, if you don't feel that the better players should win more then I guess we just disagree. IMO you should just do a coin flipping league if you truly want dead even.
You might be right but I think you can drastically reduce it, and I gave one idea for how, as did some others. In any case that is what the thread is about. What is your suggestion for changes that can be made to handicapped leagues that will encourage improvement among players in handicapped leagues?
No I don't think it does. I think the clear implication from the OP was that he was talking about handicapped leagues when he said leagues, and what changes could be made to handicapped leagues to encourage improvement from the players within those handicapped leagues.
Any league or form of competition will lead to improvement. It really comes down to the players within the league. Watch what the good players do when they play and if there is a sandbagger then watch what they do when they have to show some speed. Ignore everything else and play your match to your best ability.
It's like watching youtube videos but in actual person. Learn from observing. It does help to actually talk to the better players and ask questions. If thats not your thing then talk and learn with the best player on your own team. They may not be the best but if they're better than you, you can learn something and improve.
It's like watching youtube videos but in actual person. Learn from observing. It does help to actually talk to the better players and ask questions. If thats not your thing then talk and learn with the best player on your own team. They may not be the best but if they're better than you, you can learn something and improve.
Part of the solution involves eliminating handicaps.
This is done by only playing against other players in your division. In Amateur vs Amateur as an example, obviously you'll get some mismatches here and there. But if the top players in their division keep winning, eventually they get moved up.
I don't hate your ideas, but they aren't really in line with what I've suggested.
Have you read much of what Don Owen was trying to do with Cubit Billiard Club? Didn't get fully off the ground, but one of Don's contentions was that sandbagging is a big deal, and he sought to create a league that removes any incentive to sandbag by explicitly rewarding exactly the same thing that leads to rating increases...
Smells like the things you are proposing.
Your example could have been more clear it seems. I thought you were talking as if the handicaps would still be used to handicap within each division, and then you would also have separate divisions. With your clarification it now sounds like you are suggesting that the ratings only be used to place people into the correct division, but otherwise there would be no handicapping. Essentially it sounds like you are describing the format used at BCA nationals, with minor tweaks to how many divisions, how the money is spread out to the different divisions, and to what will move each players ratings (which IMO sounds a whole lot easier to manipulate than just using the Fargo ratings).
Now this post I agree with :thumbup:
Maybe I was not clear in my first post but I was alluding to the same thing you just stated . It is possible to stay in one division and still come into the money occasionally.
As for the monetary incentive. I just dint see it. 20% lower bracket. 30% middle bracket. 50% highest bracket.
Lets just use 1,000.00 for easy reference.
200.00 lower bracket split among top 3 finishers.
300.00 middle bracket split amongst top 3
500.00 highest bracket split amongst too 3.
Do you really think a low level player is going to spend untold hours practicing......reading material or scouring you tube ...spending 500.00 for a day with an instructor.....which btw its gonna take more than a day fo learn enough to get to the next level.....all for a measly 10% increase in payouts? Not to mention time away from family obligations.
Lets see....do I spend the 500.00 towards an instructor or put it towards my kids braces. Do I spend 3 hours practicing or do I go to my kids t ball game.
Those are the kind of choices an average league player is going to have to make his to improve enough to get an additional 30.00 bucks at the end of a session if he improved enough to get to the next level.
I just dont see how anyone would make that kind of dedication for a few dollars more at the end of the session.
I believe people are going to improve....or not due to personal ambition..not due to an addition 10 or 20% percent increase in payouts at the end of the session. Heck .....all that time and money spent may not even get you in the money in the next higher bracket for year or 2.
Never heard of him.
How would it be easier to manipulate? Unlike the APA you don't get rewarded for staying at a lower level. You must win to move up and since losses aren't as detrimental to your ranking. You'd need to lose a lot to prevent from being moved up. Making sandbagging to stay at a lower level and steal much more difficult. If not impossible.