A long comment on "aiming systems" ...

[Neil]

..................

 

[scottjen26]

Some good points Joey, I think that's what gets me when I read all of this stuff too. Arguing just for the sake of arguing, or leaping to assumptions and then arguing about that.

Look, if you don't think aiming systems work, that's great. More than likely you are happy with your way, and didn't even put in the time to really learn and experiment with the system in question. They do work, but they may not be for everyone as we all have a different natural way of picturing the proper aim point.

Aiming is not less important than fundamentals, you can't have one without the other. They are equal - need to know where to hit, and how to deliver the cue ball there reliably. Period. Working on one without the other may help somewhat but you need both for real improvement.

CTE and other systems are not a quick fix, but rather valuable tools that can be used to enhance someone's aiming (if needed and desired) or shorten the time one takes to learn these things naturally when first playing the game. And the side benefits have already been discussed and pretty much agreed upon I think by both sides.


I for one try to be factual on these things and stay away from the blatant name calling, I also don't have any history with anyone here that would get in the way of rational discussion. I gave the OP credit, just made mention of a few points as others have.

Even through we have to wade through all of the yea/nay arguments and insults, I still learn a little something in many of these threads and appreciate the time people take to express their ideas on the matter.
Scott

 

[cfrandy]

Uhhh... you do realize that you posted more against MY opinion, than I did about his, don't you??? Or, would you rather I went through his post line by line and point out where he is wrong. Just because it's his opinion doesn't mean it isn't wrong in many aspects.

Being rude and inflammatory is NOT an opinion! Comment on the op's post, not on anyone's opinion! j/s

 

[cfrandy]

If the problem is eye alignment - which I can easily believe, in principle - why do I miss the balls that are key to the rack, the pressure balls? If I were to miss the easy, stress free balls, I'd think you had a point, but I don't - it's the hard shot that wins the rack that I miss.

I think you answered your own question, "why do I miss the balls that are key to the rack". "Hard" shots are no harder than easy shots, when you possess the confidence in making them! That confidence comes from having made the same shot over and over again. Practice the "hard" shots and you'll have the confidence to make them when it counts!

 

[Slasher]

And of course, the aiming advocates can't help themselves, and come into the "naysayer" originated thread chiming in and criticizing the OP.

The exact same thing they criticize as being done to them, when all they ever wanted in life is to be able to discuss aiming in a peaceful uninterrupted manner.

But apparently, it is PERFECTLY OK, for the aiming proponents to chime into an aiming discussion thread that downplays the importance of aiming systems and focuses on other aspects of pool.

The word hypocrite comes to mind.

Now you see what it's like to be an Atheist

 

[genomachino]

A little stress can cause alot of things............

If the problem is eye alignment - which I can easily believe, in principle - why do I miss the balls that are key to the rack, the pressure balls? If I were to miss the easy, stress free balls, I'd think you had a point, but I don't - it's the hard shot that wins the rack that I miss.

good point. Why does the great player miss the easy shot for all the bananas,

Could be a number of things. But dogging the eyes is one thing that can be eliminated by learning how to have them in the correct position so you can see the shot perfectly.

If you dog the eyes there is no chance of making the shot. 0%

When i get down on a shot for all the bananas it sure is nice to be able to line it up well to see it well.

Good Luck Geno............

 

[Banks]

Why does the great player miss the easy shot for all the bananas

Because those are the shots that are taken for granted, and you know that.

 

[irock]

The people who are posting the aiming info on here are not forcing anyone to use the info, they are just putting it on here to possibly help some people who might be interested in it. If you are not interested in it don"t read it. It has probably helped more people than you think.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[thefonz]

Let's face it, it really comes down to "feel" and that is developed through lots and lots of practice. Lots of trial and error. A lot of vision, mental and physical conditioning. As well as vision, mental and physical MEMORY.
I agree.
Do you aim english the same was on Simonis or slow cloth?
Do you aim the same way on big cueball barbox table and regular cueball?

How does one go down and not feel right ? Exactly.
Here come the bullies. :grin:

lmao! greenie coming your way...

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Hey Neil--- you have made many good postes ln a variety of subjects and I appreciate your opinions---BUT RELAX A LITTLE.

 

[lfigueroa]

Even greats like SVB and Deuel who have tons of natural ability and talent, put in HUGE amounts of time and effort developing their ability. They didn't plop out of their mother ready to grab a cue and run racks.
Again, who ever said otherwise? No one has ever stated that with so-and-so system, you don't need to practice. What they HAVE said, is that by using so-and-so system, you can SHORTEN the amount of time it takes you to reach your goal.There are so many excuses, crutches and devices of mental avoidance in pool. The worst of which is aiming systems, followed closely by cue selection. Sorry people, there's no getting around it. There's no secret. All it is, is mastery of the fundamentals.Why make the mistake of attaining knowledge about how to do something with having a crutch? There are many so called "secrets" to good pool. If there weren't, everyone would be a world champion just by hitting a couple million balls. And, while mastering the fundamentals is a very important part of the game, it is only one aspect of the game. Now, YOU are wanting to leave out the other aspects of the game.


Do you realize that the short instructional section they used to print in the BCA rule book, if followed to perfection and executed consistently - would result in high level play? It's all there. How to hold the cue, how to line up. Bridges to use. What top, bottom and english does. You don't really believe that is all you need to know, do you?


Mastery of the fundamentals, and the application of them. That's it. I recently watched Corey Deuel play. There is nothing secret, special or different about what he does. What he is doing, is executing the fundamentals flawlessly. Same with Shane. Again, that is just one part of the game. He didn't automatically know how to get position or aim just because he can make the cue go in a straight line every time.


Good grief people, the game basically amounts to hitting one ball, to strike another to send it to a pocket! How complex can the interaction between two spheres be? Apparently, more so than you know.It's not as complex as some make it to be. And people here are creating charts, graphs, schematics, using trigonometry. Ridiculous.It's called "communication, and learning. Again, fundamentals applied.No, it's called "aiming". Fundamentals are a different part of the game. For everyone of you aiming system junkies, there's at least 10,000 players out there with a low IQ who will beat you silly in a race to 10.Please don't bet on that, you will lose everything you have. Do you think they are applying any of this nonsense that is discussed in these aiming system threads on every shot?Do you really think anyone discussing aiming is referring to charts and things while aiming? If you think so, you're foolish. Perhaps you should get out more and interact with some of these players sometime. Perhaps you should be more open to knowledge.



I think it is pointless for a person interested in developing their game to invest so much time and energy in "aiming systems" because no aiming system means a damn thing if you can't cue the ball correctly. And I will repeat myself, most of you cannot do it consistently or correctly. If you could, YOU'D be a PRO. Honestly, I have not seen a person who has pro-level cuing, that is mastery of cuing the cue ball, who for some reason isn't a pro level player. Example, because they are ignorant of some super-secret "aiming system" which is the key to victory. That I have never seen. Again, you apparently don't "read" much of the aiming threads. NO ONE has EVER stated that you need an aiming system to become a pro. Or that you even NEED an aiming system. What people HAVE said, is that IF you are having trouble aiming certain shots, then an aiming system can help you increase your percentages of making those shots. AND, that if you use an aiming system on each shot, you will be using the same preshot routine to align to each shot, and increase your repeatablilty and consistency, doing the same thing everytime can only help your consistency, it's the definition of the word.


It's just more secret weapon syndrome. If you have the right tools or knowledge, you will prevail. Wrong. These are excuses and crutches for the horrific and sad truths:That is where you are not understanding. It's not just having the tools, it's knowing how to use them, and actually putting in the time to use them correctly.


Truth #1: Most people will never possess the physical ability to play at the pro level.Wrong, but that depends on just what you mean by "physical ability". What most won't have is the training required. Reminds me of all the clowns that say the game is 90% mental. BS!!!!That's because you missed the other part of that statement- the part where it is stated that AFTER you have achieved a good understanding and use of the basics, THEN it becomes 90% mental. Which, has a lot of merit to it. The physical component (hand eye coordination etcetera) is very underrated in pool. Hey, I'm not saying you ought to just give up and accept whatever level you're at. Always believe and push forward. But there will be a limit for you, and for most of us, that limit is not pro-level play. Sorry. If we could, we would. We'd all be giving Efren a run for his money. Underrated by who? Again, those aren't things you are born with. They come from proper training. Most aren't willing to put in the time for proper training. Ones eye-hand co-ordination has a LOT to due with what they did from the time they were born up to the present time. Any way you want to look at it, it's all training, even in a baby. If you start out late in life trying to learn it, you first have to unlearn what you think you know about it, adding to the time it takes to properly learn it. But, it can be taught. Obviously, those with years of practice at it have an advantage towards becoming pro at any sport than those with no training. Volumes have been written on the subject.


Truth #2: Most people will not have the life situation, the time, the desire, nor the dedication to do a little something called WORK. To put in the hard work to improve. To play with fire inside them, with desire to get better, to win and win. To always be hungry and want to learn and improve. To condition their mind, vision and muscle memory to be able to repeatedly execute the fundamentals correctly and apply them to the game.
True, and there is nothing wrong with that. Very, very few actually have the desire to be a pro or to even see just how could they can get. Takes too much time away from the things they really prefer to do.


Like it or not, what makes for a good player is a person who can work hard at improving their game. There's no easy way out. No cue will make you play better. No knowledge of a system will get you there alone. So why be so obsessed with aiming systems? It would be like being obsessed with the rules of the game thinking that will make you better. Because they can shorten the time it takes you to learn the right way to do something. Notice the word "shorten", no one ever said "eliminate", so don't equate systems to eliminating all time needed.


Look, if knowledge could do it - you'd be able to read a book, then go to the table and run out a rack the first time you pick up a cue. Most people are capable of obtaining more than enough knowledge of the game, how it is played, what makes for a good stroke and good fundamentals. But do they practice what they preach? Do these players do what they know? They don't! If they did, they'd be great. But they are not.
Who EVER has said that knowledge is the only thing you need to play pool??? Who??? You seem to have some kind of aversion to knowledge?? The wise person gathers what knowledge they can, and then puts that knowledge TO USE. Without the "to use" part, knowledge alone is meaningless. Without knowledge, one spends year upon year banging balls into the rails. If you REALLY think that most people are able to come up with a good stroke on their own over time, just go to any room that has leagues, and just sit and watch for a while. You will be hard pressed to find more than just a few that have any idea of how to do things correctly. But, by YOUR statement, they are smart enough to have learned how to do it right, but are too stupid to actually do it the right way. I tend to believe that they just don't have the knowledge to do it right.

You have to train your mind & body to execute the knowledge that you already possess. That comes with years of practice and working on the game. Who ever said otherwise?


The hardest thing to learn to do in pool, is to do something exactly the same way every time. Our brains and bodies are not equipped with an instinctual, evolutionary derived ability to do fine things precisely and with extreme consistency. Such as hitting a cue ball exactly the same way or in the correct spot. As bio machines, we never had any adaptive or survival need to do such fine and complex things in such a consistent way. If a cave man threw a rock and it was 2mm off it's mark, it didn't matter for knocking out the squirrel. But for us, being off like that causes missed shots. For that reason, we have to TRAIN to be good at something like pool. You would be very hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't think that.



PS, for all you aiming system fanatics....you ought to see how Snooker is. In Snooker, there is much, much more emphasis on body, arm, and stroke mechanics (fundamentals), than "aiming systems" or cue technology.

So?? What's your point? That they don't talk about aiming at all, or that they don't like to talk about it as much as other things?? Since when was snooker forums the standard by which other forums should abide by? Maybe you should stick to their forums if this one causes you so much angst? [/QUOTE]


hmmmm, look at all that blue.

Lou Figueroa
didn't know
what Joey had
was infectious

 

[lfigueroa]

The people who are posting the aiming info on here are not forcing anyone to use the info, they are just putting it on here to possibly help some people who might be interested in it. If you are not interested in it don"t read it. It has probably helped more people than you think.

I think you're missing the point that those that discount some of the systems -- and particularly some of the outrageous claims made by system acolytes -- are also trying to help people by trying to save them a lot of wasted time, frustration, and grief by pointing out that much of it is baloney.

"Help" can come from both sides

Lou Figueroa

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[mikepage]

You aren't fooling anyone Lou. The plain simple truth is that some of you just can't stand it that someone else might learn something without it taking years to learn. That they might not have to "pay as many dues" as some of us have. Plain fact, you, and the others that want to constantly slam anyone that uses any type of system, especially aiming, don't even know how to use the systems. You yourself never gave CTE a fair shot. You looked at it soley so that you could "honestly" say you did and tried it. You never even wanted it to work, and made sure it didn't for you. Just so you could slam some more. Just like your slam at me for using blue to differentiate between his words and mine.

Your kind that have to knock anything someone posts on here to help others makes this forum way less than it could be. Hope you are happy with that.

You aren't
you just can't stand
you and the others
you yourself never
You looked at it soley
youdid
you never
you
you could slam
Your slam
Your kind
Hope you are happy with that.

Holy Moly Neil! Lou is just not this important in this discussion...

 

[Neil]

...................

 

[lfigueroa]

You aren't fooling anyone Lou. The plain simple truth is that some of you just can't stand it that someone else might learn something without it taking years to learn. That they might not have to "pay as many dues" as some of us have. Plain fact, you, and the others that want to constantly slam anyone that uses any type of system, especially aiming, don't even know how to use the systems. You yourself never gave CTE a fair shot. You looked at it soley so that you could "honestly" say you did and tried it. You never even wanted it to work, and made sure it didn't for you. Just so you could slam some more. Just like your slam at me for using blue to differentiate between his words and mine.

Your kind that have to knock anything someone posts on here to help others makes this forum way less than it could be. Hope you are happy with that.

Neil

I am not out to fool anyone.

If someone offers a legitimate shortcut that helps people player better, faster, I am all for it.

And if CTE were so great and would help my game, why on God's good green Simonis covered Earth wouldn't I want to embrace it?

I wasn't slamming you for using blue ink, I was making a funny. But some of you yeasayers are wound so tightly, so fanatical, everything is an attack or slam.

Lastly, I do plenty to make this forum a better place -- including pointing out that some of the stuff advocated here by some folks is ca-ca.

That not everyone likes everything I write is something I can live with ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

You aren't
you just can't stand
you and the others
you yourself never
You looked at it soley
youdid
you never
you
you could slam
Your slam
Your kind
Hope you are happy with that.

Holy Moly Neil! Lou is just not this important in this discussion...

I'm not?

Lou Figueroa
rats

 

[Mikjary]

I think you're missing the point that those that discount some of the systems -- and particularly some of the outrageous claims made by system acolytes -- are also trying to help people by trying to save them a lot of wasted time, frustration, and grief by pointing out that much of it is baloney.

"Help" can come from both sides

Lou Figueroa

I agree, Lou. And the more everybody posts about aiming, the more we get to talk about it. Good or bad, depending on your (collective) pain threshold.

Despite all the positive and negative claims, we are starting to examine what we previously took for granted. Weeding out the fringe commentary and sniping from both sides reveals a proof from all the research.

We've discussed quite a few systems and variations of each one. Proven or not, we've had to look at the game from different perspectives to substantiate our opinions. IOW, we been talkin' pool. It's been moving the game forward and we can all take credit for that. The negative comments have given me a good reason to dig further and vice versa, I'm sure.

So let's all keep posting in these threads, whether we make any sense or not. :wink: Never know when we might stumble across some real answers.


Best,
Mike

 

[TheThaiger]

Is there any evidence at all that aiming systems have driven up the standard of play across the board? Has there been a 'new batch' of players, knocking on the door of the pros as a direct result of using them?