Another rude and inflammatory comment! Give it a break Neil!!!
A long comment on "aiming systems" ...
- Thread starter Grilled Cheese
- Start date
Another rude and inflammatory comment! Give it a break Neil!!!
Nope...but there sure has been a lot of marketing of "new" aiming systems! However, I have always said, if someone is dumb enough to believe there is a "secret" to playing pool than that someone deserves to be parted from their money!
Mike, good post -- I'll drink to that!
Lou Figueroa
no really
I'm going downstairs
to the bar
right now
I think you're missing the point that those that discount some of the systems -- and particularly some of the outrageous claims made by system acolytes -- are also trying to help people by trying to save them a lot of wasted time, frustration, and grief by pointing out that much of it is baloney.
"Help" can come from both sides
Lou Figueroa
PLEASE....... you're not offering any help with your snide remarks. You never have and never will.
Learning aiming systems hasn't caused me any frustration, wasted time or grief.
That is, except for reading your contempt for aiming system advocates and the instructors who teach them. That does make me want to puke at times.
Banks
Banned
Well said, Mike. As Pink Floyd said, "All we need to do is keep talking". I've reviewed some of my own flaws at the table in relation to what's espoused in some of the aiming circles, one of which is the idea that a standard approach towards the shot is helpful. Otherwise, my shots can vary more than the Portland weather. I'll shoot nearly upright, then get down on a shot, not chalk for a rack, blah blah blah.. sometimes I wonder how I even make a ball.
I started in APA 7 years ago as your average bar banger, now a 7/9 without having taken lessons(I don't count a 1/2 lesson I took), playing primarily in a bar and having no better regular opponents - next stop is the BCA rankings. I attribute that to working hard to find my own flaws and to test what can be done on a table. My high runs are only 3-packs, which is pretty low in comparison to many people here, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Actually, some of the Pros do cite their use of aiming systems.. though, with all things, at a high level it can be very, very difficult to differentiate natural talent(or hard work) from specific claims. People will always excel at various things for various reasons. My response to Champ in another thread was asking for the results of people over the past year. I'd be much more inclined to hear of an APA 4-speed player jumping up two rankings in two seasons of play instead of a Pro saying that's what they do. Don't get me wrong, I know that there are positive results from just about everything that one could try. Whether or not it gets the results it claims or if it helps a majority that try it, that is more the question for most of them to answer.
TheThaiger
Banned
I think this post is bang on, if you practice for long enough you will aim subconsciously,The more you go over the shots the more consistency is achieved.speed control is just as importent making the ball.which all comes down to concentration & focus, we all have our own view, But still, whatever system you come up with,It will take countless hours to put it into practice to make it work.
Aiming can only get you just so far,After you make a ball you still have to control your speed ,angle,heartbeat and luck factor
I didn't read each and every post in this thread, so if someone said this, then consider what I say merely a ditto.
There are as many speeds of pool players as there are grains of sand on the beach. To each and every player a different thing is helpful. From eye sight, movement, nerves, knowledge, stance, stroke, blah blah ... and on and on.
Aiming systems ... if nothing else can help a player reference their stance and alignment. Depending on level of play, the feel aspect will become more prominent. And guess what, then you will progress to the aiming system feeling more prominent again, and then back to feel, and then to a combination of each.
But, to find the correct alignment. To teach these reference points for proper stance, aiming systems are helpful.
There are as many speeds of pool players as there are grains of sand on the beach. To each and every player a different thing is helpful. From eye sight, movement, nerves, knowledge, stance, stroke, blah blah ... and on and on.
Aiming systems ... if nothing else can help a player reference their stance and alignment. Depending on level of play, the feel aspect will become more prominent. And guess what, then you will progress to the aiming system feeling more prominent again, and then back to feel, and then to a combination of each.
But, to find the correct alignment. To teach these reference points for proper stance, aiming systems are helpful.
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If your toying with an aiming system and steering the cue while doing it, you will miss. You need to learn to trust the system.
ooops Hard to control that luck factor lol
Go figure.... I type with one finger :grin:
Excellent opening post, Grilled Cheese!
I used to read the aiming system threads, and even try a few of the CTE methods. I would get in an argumentative mode with the proponents of these, as the systems made absolutely no sense to me, even after I legitimately tried them. I had even made a several page long document showing what and how I tried, and posted it in one of the long gone aiming threads.
Then I got into a mode of trying to ignore all the aiming threads, as they just put me in a bad and argumentative mode.
Now, it has come around that when I see all the aiming threads, I just start shaking my head and simply feel bad for all the people who think they will take them to a high level. The one that really got to me is the poster a few days ago who said she was going to Stan to get pro/1 lessons. I mean, Stan is an awesome player and instructor by all accounts. If I was going to him, I'd want lessons on stroke, strategy, position play, choosing the right shot, etc. Aiming would be the last thing on my mind.
Speaking of Perfect Aim, I bought the DVD 2 or 3 yrs ago, whenever it came out, and I loved it. I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, and I posted that in all the perfect aim threads at the time. Fast forward to today: I can't give anyone the 8 that I was playing even 3 years ago. I can't play anyone even today that I was getting the 8 from 3 years ago. In the grand scheme of things, this perfect aim method did little to improve my "overall game".
I'm not putting down Perfect Aim... in fact my opinion is its not even an aiming system, but a head alignment method that gets your eyes in a better place to see the shot better. I still think today that it has helped me see the shot better... but the end result of this is I, personally, am not a better overall player because of it.
I'd like to know if anyone is better because of all the CTE/Pro1/90-90 threads the past 3 years. Can any of you who have become proponents of these systems actually play better?
JoeyA, can you give the 8 ball to players you played even 2 years ago?
Spider, can you play Josh Brothers today without racking every rack? (joking)... but seriously, can you give the 8 ball to players you played even 2 years ago?
Does Stevie Moore now gamble even with the Filipinos like Shane does?
Same question for Neil, for Cleary, for Champ (apologies if I have some of the names mixed up).
Here is another point to consider: I've played pool going on near 20 years now, in the Philly area with lots of great players around me. In all that time, I never ONCE heard anyone talk about how to aim a shot. Sure, we talked about how to stroke a ball, how to follow through, how to make the cue ball do xyz, how to run out, how to structure a bet to maximize cash won, how to get laid, everything! Aiming just never came up in that time and all those table and rail/counter conversations.
The only time I would see aiming discussions in the pool room was when 2 bangers were in for a date, and the boy would put his finger where he thought the girl needed to hit the object ball.
I was at DCC the last 2 years. I didn't once see an aiming discussion.
I've watched a hundred acccustats matches, never once recall an aiming discussion.
I've watched instructional tapes from Buddy Hall, Incardona, Fleming, Rempe, Grady, etc. Never once do I recall seeing aiming methods.
Why is it now there are a few people harping selling aiming methods? I think its because its a golden carrot. You wave some magical aiming method in front of someone who reached their natural potential and has been stuck there for 10 years. Hey, if you learn CTE or Pro1 or xyz, you will be finally able to play. Its a no-lose proposition. I think its stronger than a pro dumping his backer.
In my opinion of what is true, we all have our natural ability, to include hand/eye coordination, muscle memory, fine muscle control, etc. We all play the game, and within a few years, we reach our potential. It doesn't matter if we follow an aiming convention or not. We just get there one way or another. Every one of us can look at the new player that comes to the pool room and has the pool bug, and tell almost instantly if he is going to be a "player" in the next couple years, or plateau at a C or if he is lucky B player. That has nothing to do with aiming, but everything to do with ones natural ability.
I used to read the aiming system threads, and even try a few of the CTE methods. I would get in an argumentative mode with the proponents of these, as the systems made absolutely no sense to me, even after I legitimately tried them. I had even made a several page long document showing what and how I tried, and posted it in one of the long gone aiming threads.
Then I got into a mode of trying to ignore all the aiming threads, as they just put me in a bad and argumentative mode.
Now, it has come around that when I see all the aiming threads, I just start shaking my head and simply feel bad for all the people who think they will take them to a high level. The one that really got to me is the poster a few days ago who said she was going to Stan to get pro/1 lessons. I mean, Stan is an awesome player and instructor by all accounts. If I was going to him, I'd want lessons on stroke, strategy, position play, choosing the right shot, etc. Aiming would be the last thing on my mind.
Speaking of Perfect Aim, I bought the DVD 2 or 3 yrs ago, whenever it came out, and I loved it. I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, and I posted that in all the perfect aim threads at the time. Fast forward to today: I can't give anyone the 8 that I was playing even 3 years ago. I can't play anyone even today that I was getting the 8 from 3 years ago. In the grand scheme of things, this perfect aim method did little to improve my "overall game".
I'm not putting down Perfect Aim... in fact my opinion is its not even an aiming system, but a head alignment method that gets your eyes in a better place to see the shot better. I still think today that it has helped me see the shot better... but the end result of this is I, personally, am not a better overall player because of it.
I'd like to know if anyone is better because of all the CTE/Pro1/90-90 threads the past 3 years. Can any of you who have become proponents of these systems actually play better?
JoeyA, can you give the 8 ball to players you played even 2 years ago?
Spider, can you play Josh Brothers today without racking every rack? (joking
)... but seriously, can you give the 8 ball to players you played even 2 years ago?Does Stevie Moore now gamble even with the Filipinos like Shane does?
Same question for Neil, for Cleary, for Champ (apologies if I have some of the names mixed up).
Here is another point to consider: I've played pool going on near 20 years now, in the Philly area with lots of great players around me. In all that time, I never ONCE heard anyone talk about how to aim a shot. Sure, we talked about how to stroke a ball, how to follow through, how to make the cue ball do xyz, how to run out, how to structure a bet to maximize cash won, how to get laid, everything! Aiming just never came up in that time and all those table and rail/counter conversations.
The only time I would see aiming discussions in the pool room was when 2 bangers were in for a date, and the boy would put his finger where he thought the girl needed to hit the object ball.
I was at DCC the last 2 years. I didn't once see an aiming discussion.
I've watched a hundred acccustats matches, never once recall an aiming discussion.
I've watched instructional tapes from Buddy Hall, Incardona, Fleming, Rempe, Grady, etc. Never once do I recall seeing aiming methods.
Why is it now there are a few people harping selling aiming methods? I think its because its a golden carrot. You wave some magical aiming method in front of someone who reached their natural potential and has been stuck there for 10 years. Hey, if you learn CTE or Pro1 or xyz, you will be finally able to play. Its a no-lose proposition. I think its stronger than a pro dumping his backer.
In my opinion of what is true, we all have our natural ability, to include hand/eye coordination, muscle memory, fine muscle control, etc. We all play the game, and within a few years, we reach our potential. It doesn't matter if we follow an aiming convention or not. We just get there one way or another. Every one of us can look at the new player that comes to the pool room and has the pool bug, and tell almost instantly if he is going to be a "player" in the next couple years, or plateau at a C or if he is lucky B player. That has nothing to do with aiming, but everything to do with ones natural ability.
Champ. I'm thinking that your panties in your Avatar are on too tight and effected the circulation to your Big Head.
Fact #1: You can't play (this has been mentioned by you on numerous occasions).
Fact#2: Lou could give your child a kidney and you could find fault with him.
Fact#3: You never offer anything but silly comments in these threads. Note I have no belief in aiming systems because I believe they only get you so close and don't compensate for the 4 other things I need to take into account for success. Thus I just don't see the value. I have hit my million balls (probably closer to 5) and have moved on. Thus I don't get involved (generally). Your dribble is getting old.
Nick
Fact #1: You can't play (this has been mentioned by you on numerous occasions).
Fact#2: Lou could give your child a kidney and you could find fault with him.
Fact#3: You never offer anything but silly comments in these threads. Note I have no belief in aiming systems because I believe they only get you so close and don't compensate for the 4 other things I need to take into account for success. Thus I just don't see the value. I have hit my million balls (probably closer to 5) and have moved on. Thus I don't get involved (generally). Your dribble is getting old.
Nick
Doesn't everyone time how long it takes to run a rack? Neil's playing rhythm should be considered to be "slow" if it's taking him more than a minute to run the rack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoQcHkU1Dzo&feature=youtu.be*
This is all you need to know about this subject.
This is all you need to know about this subject.
Thanks for all the kinds words from several of you. Also thanks to the critics, without them we wouldn't be able to argue, and thus vet the idea and come closer to truth.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION
One reason many players believe their aiming system actually works, is because they see positive results after employing such a system. However, it may not be necessarily because of the advertised primary benefit or claims of the aiming system.
For example, taking the time to use an aiming system by the very nature of the process of doing is slows the player down and makes them ACT and THINK more deliberately. Makes the player pay attention, and put forth some regimen to their pre-shot routine.
Some players have a hard time improving because they have a hideous pre-shot routine. Full of flaws, or incomplete pre-shot routine. The use of an aiming system in a round about way makes the player have a pre-shot routine. At least in the lining up, getting down and aiming part.
It adds something that is at least consistent. It makes players pay better attention to the object ball. Also, to where their tip is going to contact the cueball. ALL critical things for shooting good pool.
Now, I don't think they're getting any kind of definitive aiming point. They're still compensating, still adjusting visually and mentally. That's because your eyeballs aren't on your hands. But at least they are being methodical.
Being methodical is of itself a huge benefit in the game. Pre-shot routine can be fast, it can be slow, it can be different for different people. But it ought to be consistent, and it ought to get a few key objectives met prior to shooting the shot.
That said, be mindful not to attribute things OUTSIDE of the "aiming system" to the aiming system itself. Because I don't use those fancy aiming systems, but I am very methodical and have a good pre-shot routine.
FYI, my aiming system works like this:
I walk over and look at the object ball. I observe a spot on the object ball that must be hit in order for it to go into the center of the pocket. I walk back to the cue ball. I aim through the CB to that spot on the OB. But guess what???
If that is done perfectly, the ball will not go on several different cuts. Why? Well, because we all know that the balls (as viewed from top down) are circles, and because of their curvature, the actual contact point is different from the line of aim. This is the age old problem of aiming. That's where all of this begins.
How do I deal with this? Simple. I practice as much as possible, and my mind, vision and body compensates for this. It always appears to me like I'm shooting at that spot. But for some reason, I'm correcting somewhere in my brain and body, and making up for that slight difference in actual line of aim versus the true contact point. I'll just call it feel. But what it really is, is conditioning of the mind and body through repetition. It's mind and muscle memory to the point where it becomes second nature. Automatic if you will. I cannot explain the mechanics of it. Nor how my mind and body does it. Does anyone here really ask or wonder how a baseball player swings a bat to hit the baseball? Ask them to describe how it is done? It comes down to "keep your eye on the ball" ....hand eye coordination, good stance and fundamentals will get it done. Oh, and being focused/concentration.
I understand that some people have difficulty. Perhaps they aren't as good visually. Speaking of that, I think ghost-ball system is perhaps the worst of the worst. Most difficult to use. Most difficult to accurately visualize, but the easiest to generally visual. There's a difference! Yet, ghost-ball might be the only system in existence that actually provides for a 100% definitive point of aim. Assuming you can visualize a ball where it doesn't exist. I think that if you can visualize that well enough to actually work, then you have the visual/mental perception skills to just use point of contact and be done with it.
But I digress. I think a lot of these players who come out of a lesson for an aiming system shoot better, not because of the aiming system, but because of the lesson. The fact that they had some structured instruction, the fact that they applied themselves in a methodical and dedicated way and many other factors contributes to the better play. Not to mention the several fundamentals which are being improved or exercised while trying to apply an aiming system.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION
One reason many players believe their aiming system actually works, is because they see positive results after employing such a system. However, it may not be necessarily because of the advertised primary benefit or claims of the aiming system.
For example, taking the time to use an aiming system by the very nature of the process of doing is slows the player down and makes them ACT and THINK more deliberately. Makes the player pay attention, and put forth some regimen to their pre-shot routine.
Some players have a hard time improving because they have a hideous pre-shot routine. Full of flaws, or incomplete pre-shot routine. The use of an aiming system in a round about way makes the player have a pre-shot routine. At least in the lining up, getting down and aiming part.
It adds something that is at least consistent. It makes players pay better attention to the object ball. Also, to where their tip is going to contact the cueball. ALL critical things for shooting good pool.
Now, I don't think they're getting any kind of definitive aiming point. They're still compensating, still adjusting visually and mentally. That's because your eyeballs aren't on your hands. But at least they are being methodical.
Being methodical is of itself a huge benefit in the game. Pre-shot routine can be fast, it can be slow, it can be different for different people. But it ought to be consistent, and it ought to get a few key objectives met prior to shooting the shot.
That said, be mindful not to attribute things OUTSIDE of the "aiming system" to the aiming system itself. Because I don't use those fancy aiming systems, but I am very methodical and have a good pre-shot routine.
FYI, my aiming system works like this:
I walk over and look at the object ball. I observe a spot on the object ball that must be hit in order for it to go into the center of the pocket. I walk back to the cue ball. I aim through the CB to that spot on the OB. But guess what???
If that is done perfectly, the ball will not go on several different cuts. Why? Well, because we all know that the balls (as viewed from top down) are circles, and because of their curvature, the actual contact point is different from the line of aim. This is the age old problem of aiming. That's where all of this begins.
How do I deal with this? Simple. I practice as much as possible, and my mind, vision and body compensates for this. It always appears to me like I'm shooting at that spot. But for some reason, I'm correcting somewhere in my brain and body, and making up for that slight difference in actual line of aim versus the true contact point. I'll just call it feel. But what it really is, is conditioning of the mind and body through repetition. It's mind and muscle memory to the point where it becomes second nature. Automatic if you will. I cannot explain the mechanics of it. Nor how my mind and body does it. Does anyone here really ask or wonder how a baseball player swings a bat to hit the baseball? Ask them to describe how it is done? It comes down to "keep your eye on the ball" ....hand eye coordination, good stance and fundamentals will get it done. Oh, and being focused/concentration.
I understand that some people have difficulty. Perhaps they aren't as good visually. Speaking of that, I think ghost-ball system is perhaps the worst of the worst. Most difficult to use. Most difficult to accurately visualize, but the easiest to generally visual. There's a difference! Yet, ghost-ball might be the only system in existence that actually provides for a 100% definitive point of aim. Assuming you can visualize a ball where it doesn't exist. I think that if you can visualize that well enough to actually work, then you have the visual/mental perception skills to just use point of contact and be done with it.
But I digress. I think a lot of these players who come out of a lesson for an aiming system shoot better, not because of the aiming system, but because of the lesson. The fact that they had some structured instruction, the fact that they applied themselves in a methodical and dedicated way and many other factors contributes to the better play. Not to mention the several fundamentals which are being improved or exercised while trying to apply an aiming system.