A natural player?

[livemusic]

Can some rare people just 'naturally' learn pool on their own or do you think there must be some instruction along the way? I have a friend who in high school was the best and a cut above anyone else around here, no matter their age. How did he get that way? I don't know where he is anymore or I'd ask him, lol. He didn't play sports, he just stayed at the pool hall, lol. I don't remember much about his game other than he always won, no matter whom he played, and I remember he had a 'pretty' stroke. I knew enough to admire his stroke. I didn't know enough about pool to realize how you really played. Meaning, I knew "shapes" were key but I didn't have any idea that you could truly control cue ball movement. How did HE get there?

Do you think some players just pick this up by lots of play or did someone show them stuff like tangent line, english, throw, etc. Pool is quite complex and to get really good, it seems it would be really difficult to just pick it up on your own.

I was watching a match yesterday of Dennis Hatch vs. Buddy Hall. Dennis was 20 years old. This is not unusual with many/most great athletes... you are great by that age but I just have trouble envisioning somebody getting to be pro level (not that my friend was, mind you, but he was real good) without some advanced instruction of all of the physics of pool.

 

[bbb]

almost all gifted players that go on to be elite
had mentors to show them things
jmho
icbw
p.s. if you separate some of your sentences it makes it easier to read your post

 

[smoochie]

natural? maybe if a guy has a sense of aiming or to put it better, a guy has better connection between his arm and brain, musicians come to mind, these people might be better starters in pool, and when I say starters I mean if you brought a bunch of people who don't know how to shoot pool, maybe these natural guys who have connection between their brains and arm would beat the others.

However, and big however here, to reach high A++ level, this natural thing doesn't matter, Ive seen people who didnt even know how to hold a cue, then they started playing 10 hrs a day for few yrs, now they shoot at A++ class.

So being natural does not matter at all in high skill depth of the game, all that matters is how much you practice daily and once you stop practicing you will lose your execution in the game (think of Mika immonen just as an example), you really need to practice, all year through, to stay up at your game.

I literally know a guy who was brought to pool hall with his dad when he was 7 or 8, he brought him every single day and the kid stayed in the pool hall for hours and hours, he didn't like pool, he was just forced to stay with his dad, he then started shooting because heck nothing else to do, he got older and older and the game grown into him, but he practised non stop after that, everytime I walked into the pool hall he's at a table alone shooting, now the guy is a pro, I don't want to say his name but he is a known player, the reason why I dont want to say his name is because when he was first brought to the pool hall with his dad, he notably did not have talent or skill, or was actually super bad for years, even after 10 yrs of shooting although he's still a kid but he was notably awful, but then at older age he started putting 10+ hrs of practice daily, he got good then.

So natural and talent is out the window, but it is only referable on lower newer people against each other.

 

[livemusic]

almost all gifted players that go on to be elite
had mentors to show them things
jmho
icbw
p.s. if you separate some of your sentences it makes it easier to read your post

Actually, that's a pet peeve of mine, too, but I didn't really consider that paragraph too long. Anyway, fixed!

 

[livemusic]

natural? maybe if a guy has a sense of aiming or to put it better, a guy has better connection between his arm and brain, musicians come to mind, these people might be better starters in pool, and when I say starters I mean if you brought a bunch of people who don't know how to shoot pool, maybe these natural guys who have connection between their brains and arm would beat the others.

However, and big however here, to reach high A++ level, this natural thing doesn't matter, Ive seen people who didnt even know how to hold a cue, then they started playing 10 hrs a day for few yrs, now they shoot at A++ class.

So being natural does not matter at all in high skill depth of the game, all that matters is how much you practice daily and once you stop practicing you will lose your execution in the game (think of Mika immonen just as an example), you really need to practice, all year through, to stay up at your game.

I literally know a guy who was brought to pool hall with his dad when he was 7 or 8, he brought him every single day and the kid stayed in the pool hall for hours and hours, he didn't like pool, he was just forced to stay with his dad, he then started shooting because heck nothing else to do, he got older and older and the game grown into him, but he practised non stop after that, everytime I walked into the pool hall he's at a table alone shooting, now the guy is a pro, I don't want to say his name but he is a known player, the reason why I dont want to say his name is because when he was first brought to the pool hall with his dad, he notably did not have talent or skill, or was actually super bad for years, even after 10 yrs of shooting although he's still a kid but he was notably awful, but then at older age he started putting 10+ hrs of practice daily, he got good then.

So natural and talent is out the window, but it is only referable on lower newer people against each other.

What's the story on Mika? I assume he quit practicing, lol.

As for practicing and staying sharp, no doubt, that is a key. I would think that part is about cue ball control. Just keeping your mind/body attuned to speed and control of whitey. You already know how to shoot the shots but you gotta keep your mind/body in tune. Golf is the same.

 

[jay helfert]

I think that some people have better hand-eye coordination and that helps them quickly adapt/learn a game like pool. Then there are savants, people who are naturally gifted to do certain things. We have had our share of 13 year old whiz kids in pool who were already playing at a very high level. Most of them fell off the pool Earth before they were out of their teens.

 

[jay helfert]

What's the story on Mika? I assume he quit practicing, lol.

As for practicing and staying sharp, no doubt, that is a key. I would think that part is about cue ball control. Just keeping your mind/body attuned to speed and control of whitey. You already know how to shoot the shots but you gotta keep your mind/body in tune. Golf is the same.

Then there have been guys who would sit around the pool hall for days doing nothing but drink beer and wait for a game/mark (Don Watson is the first one who comes to mind. Marvin Henderson is another one). Then they would get on the table and run rack after rack, so go figure. Jimmy Marino used to lay around the beach in Venice, smoking dope and having fun all day, until he heard about someone who made a little score playing pool. He would drop by their poolroom and grab a cue off the wall and proceed to beat them out of all their cash, and then go back to the beach for another couple of months. Jay Swanson would go weeks or months without picking up a cue and someone would beacon him to play a big money match in another part of the country. He would fly out there and take the guy off, bringing back a load of cheese and kick back again until he got the next call.

Marvin was one of my all time favorite people. He was a very gentle man who had a soft way of speaking and saw the humor in just about everything. Marvin was a handsome mulatto man with swept back black hair and usually wore sunglasses. He looked like a musician or entertainer of some kind. He knew all the best bars in West Los Angeles where wealthy people liked to hang out and occasionally gamble at pool. He had an easy going and friendly personality and people took to him right away. In the day time he would hang out at Ye Billiard Den in Hollywood, sitting at the far corner of the bar nursing his bottle of beer. He might sit there for hours, not talking to anyone, unless you came over and engaged him. He was like a spider waiting for someone to fall into his web. Every once in a while a "hustler" would come into the Den looking for a game. Marvin would watch to see what happened, from a distance. He would wait to see if the guy was willing to bet any real money. When the moment was right someone (maybe even me) would call on Marvin to come in and take the guy off. Marvin would slowly make his way to the table, find out what game the guy wanted to play and how much the bet was going to be. The bet would be posted, and he would get up there, win the money as quickly as possible and go back to his seat at the end of the bar. After it was over he acted as if nothing had happened, just a little interruption in his day. I loved that man! I wish I could go back to those lazy days.

 

[Island Drive]

In a CO pool room I ran/tended bar/taught etc. a young college lady would come in and play with her male friend, usually once or twice a week. She liked pool and the couple had fun, tho she usually had more FUN than he. In all my years of being in rooms, I've never seen a non player, (she was a college student) CC.... have perfect form/stance and swing mechanics. She would pocket almost any ball she chose to shoot at....but had no cue ball control concern for shape. Never seen any person/non player that did soooooo much right, that knew so little. I always watched her every time she played. She always had a pint of Ale during play.

 

[livemusic]

I think that some people have better hand-eye coordination and that helps them quickly adapt/learn a game like pool. Then there are savants, people who are naturally gifted to do certain things. We have had our share of 13 year old whiz kids in pool who were already playing at a very high level. Most of them fell off the pool Earth before they were out of their teens.

Seems to me that pool is different. Take a young person, a gifted athlete who takes up basketball and excels. Or darts. Basketball and darts don't seem to be real complicated. Put the ball through the hoop or hit the target with the dart. But pool is pretty complex. To be good at pool, really good, I could see how you could just get there by the ten-thousand-hour plan. But to get great is another story, seems to me.

Now, I don't know much, I'm just intermediate but when I watch great players, I am astounded at their cueball control, especially, after watching some instruction videos and the narrator is explaining some of the physics of striking the shot or how to strike the shot for the desired outcome. I am just curious if great pool players can 'get there' on natural talent and the ten-thousand-hours plan alone. (Ten-thousand-hour plan being you must devote 10,000 hours to any endeavor to become 'expert.')

Even somebody like golfer Seve Ballesteros comes to mind. He was 19 when he finished 2nd at the US Open. You got to be kidding! But it seems that there is less 'physics' in golf than there is in pool. And golf has quite a bit.

 

[livemusic]

Then there have been guys who would sit around the pool hall for days doing nothing but drink beer and wait for a game/mark (Don Watson is the first one who comes to mind. Marvin Henderson is another one). Then they would get on the table and run rack after rack, so go figure. Jimmy Marino used to lay around the beach in Venice, smoking dope and having fun all day, until he heard about someone who made a little score playing pool. He would drop by their poolroom and grab a cue off the wall and proceed to beat them out of all their cash, and then go back to the beach for another couple of months. Jay Swanson would go weeks or months without picking up a cue and someone would beacon him to play a big money match in another part of the country. He would fly out there and take the guy off, bringing back a load of cheese and kick back again until he got the next call.

Holy cow, that is amazing. I used to play golf with a guy, I swear, the more he drank, the better he played. It seems impossible but I saw him do it countless times. Enough beer to float a battleship and he's shooting lights out. And he's a little guy.

 

[jay helfert]

Seems to me that pool is different. Take a young person, a gifted athlete who takes up basketball and excels. Or darts. Basketball and darts don't seem to be real complicated. Put the ball through the hoop or hit the target with the dart. But pool is pretty complex. To be good at pool, really good, I could see how you could just get there by the ten-thousand-hour plan. But to get great is another story, seems to me.

Now, I don't know much, I'm just intermediate but when I watch great players, I am astounded at their cueball control, especially, after watching some instruction videos and the narrator is explaining some of the physics of striking the shot or how to strike the shot for the desired outcome. I am just curious if great pool players can 'get there' on natural talent and the ten-thousand-hours plan alone. (Ten-thousand-hour plan being you must devote 10,000 hours to any endeavor to become 'expert.')

Even somebody like golfer Seve Ballesteros comes to mind. He was 19 when he finished 2nd at the US Open. You got to be kidding! But it seems that there is less 'physics' in golf than there is in pool. And golf has quite a bit.

I would answer yes to your assertion about being naturally gifted and then playing for ten thousand hours. Keith McCready and Cole Dickson come to mind there. By their mid teens they could and did take on the best players in the world and more than held their own against them. Their only "instruction" coming in the heat of competition.

 

[Black-Balled]

Basketball and darts don't seem to be real complicated. Put the ball through the hoop or hit the target with the dart. But pool is pretty complex.

Lol. At their base levels, sure...all games and sports are easy.
putting balls into holes is all pool is.

 

[Jimbojim]

Then there have been guys who would sit around the pool hall for days doing nothing but drink beer and wait for a game/mark (Don Watson is the first one who comes to mind. Marvin Henderson is another one). Then they would get on the table and run rack after rack, so go figure. Jimmy Marino used to lay around the beach in Venice, smoking dope and having fun all day, until he heard about someone who made a little score playing pool. He would drop by their poolroom and grab a cue off the wall and proceed to beat them out of all their cash, and then go back to the beach for another couple of months. Jay Swanson would go weeks or months without picking up a cue and someone would beacon him to play a big money match in another part of the country. He would fly out there and take the guy off, bringing back a load of cheese and kick back again until he got the next call.

Marvin was one of my all time favorite people. He was a very gentle man who had a soft way of speaking and saw the humor in just about everything. Marvin was a handsome mulatto man with swept back black hair and usually wore sunglasses. He looked like a musician or entertainer of some kind. He knew all the best bars in West Los Angeles where wealthy people liked to hang out and occasionally gamble at pool. He had an easy going and friendly personality and people took to him right away. In the day time he would hang out at Ye Billiard Den in Hollywood, sitting at the far corner of the bar nursing his bottle of beer. He might sit there for hours, not talking to anyone, unless you came over and engaged him. He was like a spider waiting for someone to fall into his web. Every once in a while a "hustler" would come into the Den looking for a game. Marvin would watch to see what happened, from a distance. He would wait to see if the guy was willing to bet any real money. When the moment was right someone (maybe even me) would call on Marvin to come in and take the guy off. Marvin would slowly make his way to the table, find out what game the guy wanted to play and how much the bet was going to be. The bet would be posted, and he would get up there, win the money as quickly as possible and go back to his seat at the end of the bar. After it was over he acted as if nothing had happened, just a little interruption in his day. I loved that man! I wish I could go back to those lazy days.

How good were those guys compared to the world beaters we have today?

 

[livemusic]

How good were those guys compared to the world beaters we have today?

I dunno but I just watched an ESPN match between Mosconi, age 68 and Babe Cranfield, age 61. I would've had my hands full with Mosconi but I could have held my own and I'm a C player. I could have beat the babe handily. It was pitiful, he jerked his cue at impact on every shot. Didn't have many shots and made only a few. I know they were no spring chickens but it wasn't very impressive. Modern players are amazing with their control.

 

[Matt_24]

I dunno but I just watched an ESPN match between Mosconi, age 68 and Babe Cranfield, age 61. I would've had my hands full with Mosconi but I could have held my own and I'm a C player. I could have beat the babe handily. It was pitiful, he jerked his cue at impact on every shot. Didn't have many shots and made only a few. I know they were no spring chickens but it wasn't very impressive. Modern players are amazing with their control.

Can you run 100 balls in straight pool? I'm also a C player and I can't. I'm not sure if you're truly aware of the reality of competition. You would have no chance of beating a 61 year old Babe Cranefield.

 

[Matt_24]

How good were those guys compared to the world beaters we have today?

Just as good. Way different equipment required different approaches to the game. Watch EARL over the years. He is a perfect example. Watch those early 80s matches - his bridge length, this grip, etc....then compare it to today. His game has clearly evolved with the advancement in equipment. He was one of the best then, and is one of the best now. Same can be said for those other monster players.

 

[Matt_24]

Lol. At their base levels, sure...all games and sports are easy.
putting balls into holes is all pool is.

It's like Vince said, "Hey, it's just some balls and a stick man. You want to know what's really hard? Stalker! In 20 years a guy who scores high at Stalker is a shoe in at the Point (West Point)! It's all coming down to video game reflexes"

 

[pt109]

How good were those guys compared to the world beaters we have today?

I think Marvin would be in the top 15 alround players today....even 5x10 snooker.

 

[smoochie]

Jay said some guys stayed in the beach and drunk for months until they got called for a gamble match, then went there and rip their money off, then went back to the beach idling from pool for months again, what I would say to this is I doubt this is the truth, what I would say to Jay is that, were you with them in the beach for months while they werent playing pool? I bet you just heard somebody tell you this story, and I'm willing to bet that these guys are hustlers and they spread these rumors and talk so that some peeps call them for games, but the truth of the matter is, they are hiding somewhere practicing, a place where there's one pool table and they just practice daily and tell everybody they're not playing pool and just staying in the beach, this is how I see it.

Doesn't matter who you are, you must practice daily to excel in pool, its a tough game, I mean if you stop playing you still can play a little bit, but you will lose feel, accuracy, tough shot pocketing, alot of stuff, you may do them the first day when you are pool thirsty, but the 2nd set it will show that you havent been playing for awhile.

This is how I analyze it if somebody would have told me this story that Jay just said here few posts ago.

 

[livemusic]

Can you run 100 balls in straight pool? I'm also a C player and I can't. I'm not sure if you're truly aware of the reality of competition. You would have no chance of beating a 61 year old Babe Cranefield.

Nah, I could. And I suck. Just me popping off but I'm not sure you're truly aware of how bad it was. Watch the video below. I bet I could beat him, it's sad. Very much akin to watching a golfer with the yips. Doesn't matter, he's gone and it has nothing to do with the thread anyway, lol. I'm sure he was great in his day.