A new way to think about position?

[nataddrho]

Lots of good info here already.

I found that consciously focusing on tangent lines while aiming somehow helped me not try to hit balls too thickly and rattle, and also gives more confidence in position and stroke power. This helps when under pressure. Its a basic pool 101 thing but it still works.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Absolutely come into the line of the shot when you can. But sometimes you just have to come across it. In either case you should always at least identify the ideal spot to land (and know if going short or long of it is better). Have a precise target in mind no matter what. Even if you don’t achieve it you’re creating a feedback loop for your brain. Set general targets, get general outcomes. Set precise targets, you slowly start achieving precise outcomes. And of course make plans to use the rails as much as you can. It’s so easy to predict how speed dies off a rail than it is to predict where a ball will stop in the open table.

I was shooting a bit and thinking about what people have said here. I guess my problem with trying to visualize a precise outcome that sometimes it feels like telling you how much I weigh to the ounce. My weight is going to fluctuate by 5+ pounds, it's silly to say 173 pounds 5 ounces. And today I tended to have pretty generous zones to land the cue ball. Or there wasn't a realistic path to good position so I'm hoping for the best and knowing i can probably get the cue ball somewhere acceptable. I'll have to generate more difficult layouts. It's a little hard to pinpoint weaknesses when they don't show up.

Of course you could spend three days with me and I'll have you drawing boxes in your sleep

I want to, I need to figure out how to make that happen. I enjoy listening to your podcasts and like your mental approach to the game.

 

[ChrisinNC]

So, I've noticed that when thinking about position, I don't typically envision a precise location to land the cue ball. And I often can't deliver the cue ball to a small area. I feel like I've got a chicken or egg thing where I don't have the vision to play tight position because I have to think of what I can realistically execute. And because I'm not really aiming for a small spot, I'm also not developing the skill to get the cue ball to a tight spot.

I can find and practice plenty of drills to help me move the cue ball with more accuracy but I think I need to think about things differently as part of my development. Has anyone else struggled with this, and how did you overcome it?

Unless you are an extremely high level player, I think most good players play position for a zone, which is probably a square foot or so in size, except in situations where your window requires you to be more accurate

Of more importance particularly for a rotational game is leaving the necessary angle which you leave yourself for your next shot, which allows you to most efficiently get the cue ball to where you need to get for the ball after that, which you’ll be needing to get position for. Sometimes as little as 1 inch in the wrong direction can make getting where you need to get to for your next ball extremely hard or even impossible.

As an older player, I try to avoid positioning that will leave a long shot, unless there is no option. This might not be as big of an issue with younger players. I also try to avoid leaving the cue ball on the cushion, unless I’ll be shooting at an angle more perpendicular with the cushion. Of course I always try to avoid position which would put my bridge hand jacked up over another ball.

As older players, we can’t compete with the shotmaking on long, tough shots that the younger players can handle. With my decades of experience I feel my positioning skills are far superior to most of my younger opponents, which gets me through, in addition to my defensive game. Most players who can play good position are also strong safety players, as they have excellent cue ball control and have a good idea where the cue ball is going and where it will end up.

 

[tim913]

Absolutely come into the line of the shot when you can. But sometimes you just have to come across it. In either case you should always at least identify the ideal spot to land (and know if going short or long of it is better). Have a precise target in mind no matter what. Even if you don’t achieve it you’re creating a feedback loop for your brain. Set general targets, get general outcomes. Set precise targets, you slowly start achieving precise outcomes. And of course make plans to use the rails as much as you can. It’s so easy to predict how speed dies off a rail than it is to predict where a ball will stop in the open table.

Like they say in bowhunting .. Aim Small Miss Small!

 

[RT Ford]

So, I've noticed that when thinking about position, I don't typically envision a precise location to land the cue ball. And I often can't deliver the cue ball to a small area. I feel like I've got a chicken or egg thing where I don't have the vision to play tight position because I have to think of what I can realistically execute. And because I'm not really aiming for a small spot, I'm also not developing the skill to get the cue ball to a tight spot.

I can find and practice plenty of drills to help me move the cue ball with more accuracy but I think I need to think about things differently as part of my development. Has anyone else struggled with this, and how did you overcome it?

I never shoot a shot without thinking about where the cue ball will end up, even if I only have one ball left on the table. Pool is all about cue ball control. Whether it's baseball, tennis, bowling, or any sport that uses a ball; controlling the ball is paramount. In one of my practice routines, I use the cue ball and one object ball. I'll set up a shot, which might be easy or difficult, and pick a precise spot on the table where I want the cue ball to stop after pocketing the object ball. This teaches me cue ball control because I have to manipulate the cue ball to make it go where I want it to go. I'll shoot that same shot, over and over again, until I'm satisfied with the result. Then I might set up the same shot, but pick a different spot to send the cue ball, which will force me to manipulate the cue ball differently. No one can get exact position every time, but conscientious practice will get me pretty close, and pretty close is usually good enough.

 

[Oikawa]

In my opinion, an important detail that perhaps hasn't been mentioned yet is that it's not about only using pinpoint targets or only using zones. You should utilize both during the thinking process.

What I mean is, you should first figure out which shot gives the best zone to work with for your cue ball, just like Tin Man and others have talked about in great detail already, but when you have decided on a zone, you should then pick a point within that zone to aim at that gives the best results on average for your specific situation, and that point becomes your final aiming target. When you are down on the shot, you don't think about the zones that lead you to aiming there, you only think about the end-result, the singular point.

Most commonly, this ideal point to aim at should be within the middle point between going too short and long within a zone. But sometimes it's not, for example, you could have a zone where you have a shot for a 2 diamond long distance, but the first 1.5 diamond distance leaves a much tougher shot than the remaining 0.5 diamonds.

Let's say your realistic scatter in terms of power for this particular shot is +-0.5 diamonds. Or in other words, 99.9% of the time you will land within 0.5 diamonds either way of your target point power wise.

You now have two simple options, aiming at the center of the entire 2 diamond zone of having a shot, or aiming at the center of the 0.5 diamond zone where you have ideal shape.

1. Center of the entire 2 diamond zone. This would leave you with the tougher shot 100% of the time (from 0.5 to 1.5 diamonds with scatter).
2. Center of the smaller, ideal zone. This would leave you with a 25% chance of a tough shot, 50% chance of an easy shot, and a 25% chance of no shot at all (from 1.25 to 2.25 diamonds with scatter).

Neither of these are the ideal target.

You should skew the middle point slightly towards the easier edge to increase your odds of hitting the ideal zone for an easier shot, just not too much that you start risking missing the 2 diamond length zone altogether. Picking the 1.5 diamond point as your target (from 1 to 2 diamonds with scatter), you would have a 50% chance of leaving the harder shot, and 50% chance of leaving the easier shot.

If we use the same shot as an example, but change the person playing and say that their scatter for power is 4 diamonds instead of 0.5 diamonds, the ideal target point becomes the middle of the entire zone of having a shot at all. Or if the person has a scatter of 0.1 diamonds, they should aim at the center of the ideal 0.5 diamond zone. It's all about your scatter, and being realistic about it. Overestimating your abilities will only hinder your odds.

So, to put it all together, first pick a zone. Then think about the value of landing on all points along the zone in terms of power, and how large your scatter is. Then pick a singular point target based on those factors as a final aiming point.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I tend to look inward when stuff like as in the OP.....and shape/position is probably the biggest killer of my game....I shoot myself into hard shots that although I may make...at some point I end up missing and selling out.....or in some cases it is just a bad safe.

Thing is I can lag the ball anywhere around the table......For myself personally (and I suspect a lot of other people)....A lot of times...I either did not pay attention to how much speed the CB will retain/pick up coming off of contact of a rail or another ball and/or I perhaps (although I pocketed the ball) I hit it too thin or to thick........Like most I like to blame it on the speed of the cloth or the bouncy rails...etc. etc.....but the reality is....most likely I just was not paying close enough attention to the tangent line and/or thickness of hit...(or the running english I put on the CB)

 

[Zerksies]

Two forms of thought. When you are practing you should be aiming with/for precise control. When you are in a game you should be thinking going for in line/ continuing the run.

I got alot better when i started with going on the right side of the ball. The angle on the next shot can be tweaked with spin on the ball either high or low left or right.

Also try to aim for a bigger target zone versus a smaller zone. Also come into the target zone and not across it

 

[SmoothStroke]

It will be a very long road unless you have total control of the cue ball. I recommend learning Short Stroke, Mid Stroke, and Long Stroke technique through progressive stroke drills. Not shot drills, stroke drills.
They will also sharpen your speed control. When you understand the cue ball, position play is a no brainer.
Execution now stands front and center,
Nothing is easy, it's a very difficult game. When you have control, the road map layouts and staying on the right side of the ball become easier .The more difficult movements are also easier to understand.

When you have control, cutting across angles or an opponent leaves you a 3 rail reverse cue ball strike becomes routine. To lengthen or shorten angles becomes easier to see, to perform, to keep you in line, or get you in line.
As easy as you write your name, you will recognize the patterns, and options for the path you choose to play at that moment, and change on the fly should you lose the cue ball. That's called Plan B.
I repeat, none of it is easy, but can become natural to understanding the total picture and choice of options presented to you in a blink of an eye.
It's all about the Cue Ball and Speed Control.

The name of the game is "The Cue Ball.'' Without complete knowledge and command of it you may as well throw it by hand. Everything else in the game of pool is easily learned compared to the cue ball, and stroke control. The other 15 balls are something you play around with while you play pool with the Cue Ball.
Bring a straight stroke, don't leave home without it. A little long winded I got carried away.
Best: SS

 

[Jimmorrison]

Like they say in bowhunting .. Aim Small Miss Small!

Uncle Ted

 

[Philthepockets]

There are the odd times when you need to land on a dime, it's good practice to play for a spot.

 

[kollegedave]

So, I've noticed that when thinking about position, I don't typically envision a precise location to land the cue ball. And I often can't deliver the cue ball to a small area. I feel like I've got a chicken or egg thing where I don't have the vision to play tight position because I have to think of what I can realistically execute. And because I'm not really aiming for a small spot, I'm also not developing the skill to get the cue ball to a tight spot.

I can find and practice plenty of drills to help me move the cue ball with more accuracy but I think I need to think about things differently as part of my development. Has anyone else struggled with this, and how did you overcome it?

Take lessons with Tin Man. He is great on this issue...and many others.

kollegedave

 

[ShootingArts]

Hard not to notice that some of those that are saying spot shape, within a cue ball width, is impossible are also not trying for spot shape. I exaggerated things a wee bit but not all that much when I talked about my days before watching Willie magic on the table. My idea of area shape was huge! The thing is that anyone that can play area shape can keep reducing that area, and anyone can learn to play area shape.

I suggest that those that believe spot shape to be impossible spend some time watching modern snooker players. With today's equipment and today's competition the skill level is fantastic! Twenty or twenty-five feet of travel to nestle a ball into a notch in the stack without disturbing other balls, all kinds of sick shots. If snooker leaves a person unconvinced or they want quicker persuasion, watch artistic pool for awhile. Does anyone think that shooting for shape from under three feet is harder than many of the artistic shots? There are shots that are all set-up but there are shots that take a lot of skill too.

I don't think that anyone is claiming that spot shape comes easy but if you already have decent cue ball control it can come pretty fast to at least reduce your zone a lot.

Fortunately, and what may be encouraging, most people will make a big jump as soon as they start trying for spot shape. Oikawa goes into a lot of detail, worth reading through a couple times for anyone wanting to learn spot shape. Often, shooting at a zone we are not even trying for best position. Shooting for spot shape we can shoot for best position. Too, just aiming at a spot instead of a twelve inch zone probably just reduced your outside scatter six inches!

Different people have given away enough information in this thread that when it runs it's course it should be compressed into an article. I'll part with something else, if a shot is properly planned it is impossible to get half of it perfect. As someone else might have mentioned(grin), pool is about the cue ball. That is why at my peak I probably focused 80% of my attention on shape most shots. Playing shape can be roughly compared to three cushion. Hitting that first ball in three cushion is generally pretty easy, it is what happens afterwards that is hard.

Hitting the object ball is just the first stop on the cue ball's journey. If it comes off of that collision right it will fall right for each collision in the rest of it's journey. Fall wrong and nothing works out. It becomes almost impossible to miss the object ball and make shape since shape started with how we came off of the object ball and the tip before that.

Hu

 

[snookered_again]

even more in snooker but it applies to other games. I'll often find myself wondering if my shot should locate the cue ball in such a way the opponent gets bad shape if I miss or if, chances are good for me, I'll make the shot in which case I'll play to get myself good shape on the next ball.

I think one of the hardest things is actually being realistic about the chances, its really easy to say to yourself, I can do this,, so, well, I'll just make it and take the optimistic approach rather than use a more defensive strategy. Time and again I'll anticipate I'll make the shot and the result will be a miss and a setup for the next player. darnit !

often the next payer is an expert and yes I'll loose out, spend time sitting down. why ? because I over estimated my chances of success in that one shot. Sure I could make it, but the chances were better of a miss than a pot..
if I play defensive and make the ball then I have a lower chance of feeling the glory of a good run, we all want that feeling, its like an addiction, so I think it's easy to overestimate our chance at success and think that way.

Often as a result , loose the game. in our heads we think we are looking at a 70 % chance shot, in reality its actually a 40% chance shot. We or should I say I?, fool ourselves into thinking we are just a bit better than we are. Human nature perhaps? Being over optimistic can work against us. Of course if you do not pot balls when you get the chance , and instead only play safeteys, Then you can loose by playing too defensive of a strategy.

Its a bit like poker except poker is a game of chance, with some skill, and pool is mainly a game of skill.. both have a strategy.

To get better results overall , or improve your rating or number of brownie points, in either game, you need to assess the risks accurately.. its part of the game, as well as the shooting.

At home we use a bead rack to keep score.. I jokingly refer to them as pleasure beads ;-)

 

[MattPoland]

I’d also emphasize when using zones is that you typically come into those zones off one or more rails. So it’s also typical to have a pinpoint position “on the rail” your trying to target your cueball to. That’s where things like the Wagon Wheel drill really compliments your ability to send the cueball to the rail with position.

 

[boogieman]

in snooker the rule of thumb is often that if you dont have shape, dont leave shape. in each shot the player is thinking about a safe zone , a place where he can land if he misses, as well as a place where he may make the next shot in a run.. The probability of making that shot is important in the decision. a miss and leaving a good player open often ends the chances of winning. in some cases the player may have an easy shot but not like the position of the resulting cue ball position, and often as well there may be an easy shot but also a nearby ball he can duck behind and make a good hook.. I love the game because of the almost unlimited amount of deeper level thinking involved. Other pool games have similar strategies but perhaps to a lesser extent. I think often the other ones are a bit more about making balls and running balls, than hooks. accuracy means a lot but there are instances where sharp thinking , or lack of it, can be a real game changer.

One pocket really helped me with this aspect. If I'm not confident in running out I'd rather play a cross bank or something with a 25% chance to go in as long as the CB ends up safe. Unlike 1P you don't want to leave a pocket hanger but the idea is the same, use the correct speed to not leave a hanger should it miss. Basically try to never leave your opponent a shot. Of course it's all situational, if I have to really cook the CB to get shape or it's an off angle or something the 2 way becomes more valuable. And of course you can't win by defense only but it sure helps to have defense in mind if you're not feeling confident on a shot.

I've also noticed that the old advice "never run into a ball" can be broken quite often if you know for a fact which side of a ball you will hit and what speed. I'm only mentioning this because it can save your butt in some situations. Much easier to stop a CB with another ball in some instances. You don't want to do it willy nilly, but practicing this can also help you achieve more break outs and maybe even nudge a problem ball closer to a pocket.

Another thing, it's nice to go look at the next ball in rotation and really look at where it can be pocketed. Decide which is the best spot to shoot it from. By standing at the table looking at the next ball in sequence you've also let your subconscious know what line you would like to come into. It still takes practice and some critical thinking at times but just the act of looking at the next shot line into the pocket provides powerful information to your conscious and subconscious mind.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot to mention something that helped me immensely: I devoted about a month of practice time, and even league nights and cheap tournaments to only using the vertical axis of the CB. It was a real eye opener on picking correct angels and actually seeing what the CB is capable of without side/english. You have to master english and it's effects but if you were like me, once you learned english you put it on every shot for years. It sounds silly but I really didn't understand at a fundamental level the stuff you can do with only the vertical axis. The CB becomes more predicable and it also helped me with speed control. I found it was much easier to get the shape I wanted without the CB taking a wild ride or throwing the OB. Once I felt it had been long enough I started adding english where necessary. The area of the CB I struck narrowed to about the size of a dime and the stroke did the rest. Obviously there are times you need to juice the CB but it's sure a lot less than I used to think. “If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.”

 

[Brookeland Bill]

Lots of good info here already.

I found that consciously focusing on tangent lines while aiming somehow helped me not try to hit balls too thickly and rattle, and also gives more confidence in position and stroke power. This helps when under pressure. Its a basic pool 101 thing but it still works.

I agree. Determine the tangent line and fire away.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Another vote for:

Think about "into the line" and area position but on each shot pick a spot to put the cue ball.

 

[maha]

to get very good you need to know where you want to get on about the 4th ball for the 5th, or at least the 3rd for the 4th next ball.
or you will never have the right angle on your next ball to have reasonable shape down the line..

that does take time and thinking. soon it will come more naturally and fairly quickly.

 

[Baby Huey]

In pool and all the other cue games, position is what the game is all about. Scoring is achieved by good decision making, shot making and position play. Most great players conceptualize the table layout after the break and begin to formulate how to attack the run. No one ever can run out rack after rack perfectly and expecting yourself to do so is folly. Keeping your position options open keep you at the table. And, don't get upset if things go awry during the run. Just stay with it.