A new way to think about position?

[tomatoshooter]

So, I've noticed that when thinking about position, I don't typically envision a precise location to land the cue ball. And I often can't deliver the cue ball to a small area. I feel like I've got a chicken or egg thing where I don't have the vision to play tight position because I have to think of what I can realistically execute. And because I'm not really aiming for a small spot, I'm also not developing the skill to get the cue ball to a tight spot.

I can find and practice plenty of drills to help me move the cue ball with more accuracy but I think I need to think about things differently as part of my development. Has anyone else struggled with this, and how did you overcome it?

 

[BigBoof]

Dr Dave had a recent video on shooting into the line. I highly recommend it. His demonstrations showed ways to play where you could be short or long of ideal and be good.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

 

[MattPoland]

Absolutely come into the line of the shot when you can. But sometimes you just have to come across it. In either case you should always at least identify the ideal spot to land (and know if going short or long of it is better). Have a precise target in mind no matter what. Even if you don’t achieve it you’re creating a feedback loop for your brain. Set general targets, get general outcomes. Set precise targets, you slowly start achieving precise outcomes. And of course make plans to use the rails as much as you can. It’s so easy to predict how speed dies off a rail than it is to predict where a ball will stop in the open table.

 

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Absolutely come into the line of the shot when you can. But sometimes you just have to come across it. In either case you should always at least identify the ideal spot to land (and know if going short or long of it is better). Have a precise target in mind no matter what. Even if you don’t achieve it you’re creating a feedback loop for your brain. Set general targets, get general outcomes. Set precise targets, you slowly start achieving precise outcomes. And of course make plans to use the rails as much as you can. It’s so easy to predict how speed dies off a rail than it is to predict where a ball will stop in the open table.

Terrifically stated here. Well done. Better than I could’ve said it for sure.

 

[Tin Man]

There are four levels of position play.

Level one is none. Just shoot a ball in, rub your eyes, then see where you land.

Level two is to play to a large, vague area. Somewhere out here (waving your hands over a third of the table).

Level three is a point. "I am going to stop right HERE for the 6 ball." Sure.

None of these work. The large area is too big, the point is too small to actually hit (if your pattern hinges on landing on a dime then you will fail).

So what is the Goldilocks solution? A ZONE. Level four is a zone that is small enough to be only reasonable position, but big enough to actually hit.

When I teach zone creation I ask my students to start with a spot. So question one is "Where would I want to be if I did land on a dime?" But then we make it bigger by asking follow ups. The next question is "How far back on that line would I be ok with that is still reasonable position?" Then "How much to the left could I be of that line?" Then "How much to the right of that line could I be?" All of a sudden we've gone from a point, to a line, to a nice juicy zone!

Now there is so much more I could say. The next follow up question is "Can I reliably hit that zone with my cue ball using the shot I have?" If yes, shoot. If no, "If I miss this zone, which side would I prefer to miss on? Is there a little area I can add on one end (longer, thinner, etc) that would still be ok?" Now does your cue ball hit that target? If yes, shoot. If no, "Do I have alternatives to consider such as other pockets or other sequences?"


There is a ton more I could say. Part of this is giving ourselves the right angles to best control the cue ball so it is tight enough to hit our targets. Part of it is learning to make those targets play bigger (playing the line of desired angle as has been mentioned, using rails as brakes, playing to the wide part of the position cone, etc). And there are plenty of exceptions to the rules.

But yes, if you start thinking of pool as not just a game of balls to pocket, but a game of targets to hit with your cue ball, and you start visualizing specific targets that are as big as you can make them, then you'll figure a lot of this out on your own and will see improvement. Of course you could spend three days with me and I'll have you drawing boxes in your sleep. But for free online content I'd check out TOR as he does a good job for a primer.

 

[straightline]

So, I've noticed that when thinking about position, I don't typically envision a precise location to land the cue ball. And I often can't deliver the cue ball to a small area. I feel like I've got a chicken or egg thing where I don't have the vision to play tight position because I have to think of what I can realistically execute. And because I'm not really aiming for a small spot, I'm also not developing the skill to get the cue ball to a tight spot.

I can find and practice plenty of drills to help me move the cue ball with more accuracy but I think I need to think about things differently as part of my development. Has anyone else struggled with this, and how did you overcome it?

Those ^ are all game decisions. I like to separate the work from the winning. Problem is the win or lose looms large when in a match. Players will default to dumbing it down when in a match. Wise but not conducive to improving.

IOW you get better at competition and not necessarily pool. If this seems like a non entity, consider the champion vs average player. The champ is on headroom. He can do anything he knows. He has prepared a superior skillset.

Back to improving your ball control and why getting superior is not only a thing, it is _the_thing.
When you practice, the rock will always come to a stop. Let's call everything a stop shot - the ball runs 3 rails and then comes to a stop, 2 rails, one rail, no rail, it always stops. You'll also find you hit many shots consistently identically. Lot of it has to do with pocket speed and watching the object ball. While you're busy not missing, the rock tends to quietly repeat its actions for any given shot. As long as the shots are in spec, remember them. They'll come in handy when you need perfect landings - regardless of game wisdom.

Now, the work part and the big issue with improving;
it becomes work. No way around it.
The good news is improving is all win.
That's all...

 

[Tin Man]

I should also add tomato, you are right that people need strong cue ball tools. Pattern play is limited by cue ball control. A musician that knows three notes won't be able to play many songs, and a pool player who is only comfortable shooting really thick hit stop shots, rolls, and stuns, won't be able to move up and down table accurately.

So you are right that you have to develop your cue ball. I have so much I could say on this as to the right path forward. For now I'll suggest you start with one run at a time. Post a picture of a run out. Hear how we'd run the balls out. Then work on those moves until you can execute that run. Most players shoot a rack once and either run out or fail, then move on. That would be like a musician trying to sight read a complicated song once, playing it horribly, then moving on to a different song. Real musicians practice one song, one note at a time, until they have that song perfect. I like working on one run the same way.

Now, there are more problems. Patterns are limited by cue ball. But cue ball can be limited by technique. It depends on tip accuracy. And tip accuracy depends on swing timing. And everything involves knowledge and experience. But experience doing the right things. Now you see why I train in person and don't type for a living.

But rather than be overwhelmed by how tough the journey is, remember, it's a FUN road to travel. So don't be paralyzed with perfectionism or discouraged. Have fun, pick something, and start trying to get it just a little bit better!

 

[BRKNRUN]

Old school (1-pocket) player gave me a powerful tip one time on how to improve CB control.....He said to just throw two object balls on the table and basically play 1-2 rail billiards with a twist....instead of just trying to shoot a ball and go 1-2 rails hitting the other ball.....try to go 1-2 rails and freeze the CB on the second ball....If you fail...try again....if you succeed...spread them apart a bit and keep going until you get good at freezing up against the second ball.....you don't have to pocket the first ball as part of the drill but if you do.....just throw another ball on the table.

I will admit I don't work on that near enough....but when I do it improves my overall CB control............

It not only helps you with shape during a run....It also helps you when playing safe.

 

[straightline]

@ Tshooter
What do you feel is lacking in your ball control?

 

[Ghost of OBC]

I do a version of the "zone" idea. In my PSR I first pick a side of the shooting line I want to end up on the next ball and then pick the ideal spot. I remind myself by thinking "side and spot."

Generally it is better to miss the spot but be in the correct side rather than closer to the spot on the wrong side. That's how I picture my zones.

If you have to come across the line give yourself some wiggle room on the correct side even if you miss the spot.

 

[fastone371]

It is of my opinion that our subconscious does a lot of our position play. All too often you see a guy slide his cue down the rail and stops it where he would like the cue ball to end up, more often than not it seems that is exactly what happens, the cue ball ends up right on the rail. I aim for pinpoint accuracy, sometimes I will leave the tip of my cue on the table and pivot the cue around with me to my shot line so I can see what it looks like from where I will be shooting from. If I am aiming for a point and I miss by a couple of ball diameters I am usually fine, but I always check with myself about whether I am better off long or short of my spot.

 

[Island Drive]

Or left or right of your chosen spot.

 

[eastcoast_chris]

I noticed myself thinking about getting position wrong awhile ago.

I was thinking about it backwards, in that I would think in my head "How can I get from the contact point to where I think I want to be on the next shot?" rather than thinking, "I want to be exactly here on the next shot. Is that possible? If not possible, what's the safest/easiest way to get close to that position?"

It sounds like I'm saying the same thing, but I'm totally not. Starting with an exact desired location makes it easier to envision how to get there.

How often do you play a shot "perfectly" as you meant to and then realize that where you played position to wasn't the best place to be?

 

[jokrswylde]

There are four levels of position play.

Level one is none. Just shoot a ball in, rub your eyes, then see where you land.

Level two is to play to a large, vague area. Somewhere out here (waving your hands over a third of the table).

Level three is a point. "I am going to stop right HERE for the 6 ball." Sure.

None of these work. The large area is too big, the point is too small to actually hit (if your pattern hinges on landing on a dime then you will fail).

So what is the Goldilocks solution? A ZONE. Level four is a zone that is small enough to be only reasonable position, but big enough to actually hit.

When I teach zone creation I ask my students to start with a spot. So question one is "Where would I want to be if I did land on a dime?" But then we make it bigger by asking follow ups. The next question is "How far back on that line would I be ok with that is still reasonable position?" Then "How much to the left could I be of that line?" Then "How much to the right of that line could I be?" All of a sudden we've gone from a point, to a line, to a nice juicy zone!

Now there is so much more I could say. The next follow up question is "Can I reliably hit that zone with my cue ball using the shot I have?" If yes, shoot. If no, "If I miss this zone, which side would I prefer to miss on? Is there a little area I can add on one end (longer, thinner, etc) that would still be ok?" Now does your cue ball hit that target? If yes, shoot. If no, "Do I have alternatives to consider such as other pockets or other sequences?"


There is a ton more I could say. Part of this is giving ourselves the right angles to best control the cue ball so it is tight enough to hit our targets. Part of it is learning to make those targets play bigger (playing the line of desired angle as has been mentioned, using rails as brakes, playing to the wide part of the position cone, etc). And there are plenty of exceptions to the rules.

But yes, if you start thinking of pool as not just a game of balls to pocket, but a game of targets to hit with your cue ball, and you start visualizing specific targets that are as big as you can make them, then you'll figure a lot of this out on your own and will see improvement. Of course you could spend three days with me and I'll have you drawing boxes in your sleep. But for free online content I'd check out TOR as he does a good job for a primer.

In my progression, I had a phase between your level 2 and 3 where I focused much of my practice on Tor's strategy of (mostly) center ball shots, using the tangent line to stay on the right side of the shooting line. The biggest benefit of this was that it really made me focus on working backwards from the last ball I wanted to pocket, depending on 8 or 9 ball.

As I noticed a pretty significant improvement, I went to your level 3 where I would try and land the cue ball on a 3x5 index card. Some idea I got off of a utube expert Im sure. I found that I was not very good at it, started getting frustrated, and my position actually suffered. I went back to focusing on right side of the shot line. I am definitely going to give your zone idea a try. How big are the zones you create on a typical shot?

 

[snookered_again]

in snooker the rule of thumb is often that if you dont have shape, dont leave shape. in each shot the player is thinking about a safe zone , a place where he can land if he misses, as well as a place where he may make the next shot in a run.. The probability of making that shot is important in the decision. a miss and leaving a good player open often ends the chances of winning. in some cases the player may have an easy shot but not like the position of the resulting cue ball position, and often as well there may be an easy shot but also a nearby ball he can duck behind and make a good hook.. I love the game because of the almost unlimited amount of deeper level thinking involved. Other pool games have similar strategies but perhaps to a lesser extent. I think often the other ones are a bit more about making balls and running balls, than hooks. accuracy means a lot but there are instances where sharp thinking , or lack of it, can be a real game changer.

 

[Tin Man]

In my progression, I had a phase between your level 2 and 3 where I focused much of my practice on Tor's strategy of (mostly) center ball shots, using the tangent line to stay on the right side of the shooting line. The biggest benefit of this was that it really made me focus on working backwards from the last ball I wanted to pocket, depending on 8 or 9 ball.

As I noticed a pretty significant improvement, I went to your level 3 where I would try and land the cue ball on a 3x5 index card. Some idea I got off of a utube expert Im sure. I found that I was not very good at it, started getting frustrated, and my position actually suffered. I went back to focusing on right side of the shot line. I am definitely going to give your zone idea a try. How big are the zones you create on a typical shot?

Awesome! Great job developing your game!

The size of your target is not constant. I have a theory of pattern play I call "Gun vs Target". The target is the area I have to hit on the table to be in good position. The 'gun' is the cue ball move that I am using to hit that target.

I came up with a metric I use to rate how good different cue ball maneuvers are. I call it 'scatter'. The idea is if you were to set up a shot ten times and try to play your cue ball to a specific point, and you were to mark each of the ten landing spots with your cue ball, how tight is the grouping? Are all ten spots exactly on a dime? Are they 10" apart? Are they 3' apart? That is your scatter for that shot. So a stop shot might have a 2" scatter, but a two foot draw shot might have a 2' scatter.

For patterns to work your target has to be as big or bigger than your cue ball scatter. The gun has to be able to hit the target!

So you can play to a 3 inch target if you are using a 2" scatter stop shot. And you can use a wild reverse four railer cue ball maneuver with a 48" scatter if your next ball is hanging on the side pocket and you just have to end up on one half of the table. You don't always need big targets, and you don't always need accurate guns. The gun just has to hit the target.

As long as your gun hits your target you won't be trying to get position, you will just GET position. The same way if you always have 95-99% shots you will rarely miss the pocket, if you have guns that hit your target 95-99% of the time, you will rarely miss the target or get a tough shot.

What I have found is that a lot of problems with people's pattern play isn't just target creation. It's that they are using bad guns without enough control to hit the targets they want to hit. Without the right guns we can talk patterns all day long and it won't happen. If a beginner only knew how to roll a cue ball with center, you could talk all day about targets and it would do no good. They just are lacking the tools needed to control the cue ball. Many players just don't have the right tool box of cue ball moves (or don't know which ones to turn to for best control).

When I play there are ten cue ball moves that I use as I've found they give me the best scatter while moving my cue ball up and down table. So when I teach I try to help people learn and control these shots so they have a reasonable tool belt to start making patterns viable. This involves filling in gaps in knowledge about how these shots work, where they go, and how to adjust, as well as smoothing out their technique (better tip accuracy stemming from smooth cueing with good timing). And then of course we have to put in hours hitting those shots to allow the time to develop confidence and control.

During my sessions I start by developing guns, then look at patterns using those guns, then developing more guns, then looking at more complex patterns. We start with the basic moves and practice running open 8 ball racks, and by the tail half of the session we are working on more advanced moves and taking it to the streets with rotation run outs.

Getting back to your question, the targets should be good enough to happily play from any part of them, and big enough to hit!

 

[ShootingArts]

Zones are a starting point. We can start with a "Good Enough" zone but there is nothing to keep us from constantly shrinking that zone. My open table zone got to about one inch in any direction. I picked a point on the table and the goal was to "shade" that point with the cue ball. Some part of the cue ball should be over that point. At times shape was far smaller than that but playing shape feeds on itself. When you play perfect shape on one shot it is far easier to play perfect shape on the next shot. When each shot is struggling to get back inline we usually get a little further off until we lose shape entirely.

At one point I looked at the next ball last before getting down on my shot. I very often lodged up against my next ball or hit it a little harder moving it and messing up shape. Not being the sharpest knife in the drawer I did this for months. Then I realized that my unconscious and my body were doing great jobs of taking care of the information I fed them. The problem was I was giving them the wrong information to work with looking at the next ball last.

I started picking a spot on the table for the cue ball to stop. I found that as a general statement I didn't like being closer than about sixteen inches to the object ball. twenty-four inches was the other edge of my peak position as well as the right side to side position. I was fine closer, I was fine thirty inches away, but I had located my favorite range.

Now it was just a matter of picking a spot in that range that would give me shape on the next ball using mostly angle and speed. A wide range of angles and speeds would pocket a ball shooting from 12-30 inches away and I could get shape again. Other players understood but protests from the peanut gallery became common. "It wasn't fair, you got all the easy shots." "Yes ma'am, I did." At my peak I might shoot for several hours without pocketing a ball the typical bar room player couldn't pocket with ease.

Spend thirty minutes by the clock not using more than half a tip of side in practice. After awhile it becomes fun and challenging instead of work and the time can be increased.

Angles, speed, zones of ever decreasing size, these are a foundation that never lets you down. There is a nice friendly area around the centerline of the cue ball. Stay in this area and miscues, most of the issues people have with ball interactions, just don't happen anymore.

"Good enough" is never good enough when we can do better. Picking a spot for the cue ball to land is one of the most powerful tools in pool. Choosing the direction to come into that spot from is also extremely powerful. If you fail to execute perfect shape but you are still shooting the same shot you planned next, including shape, you didn't really miss. With the gun and target comparison, you just hit the ten ring instead of the X.

It was easy to find my old targets in the stack by the door, the bottom half of the X would be missing. I would score some tens too, just as good since that competition didn't score X's. A pool shooter's zone should be small enough that like the X ring, it doesn't matter if you miss a little bit.

The unconscious and the body will try to meet any demands we put on them. If we demand a little, we get a little. If we demand a lot, we get a lot.

Hu

 

[The_JV]

I generally don't sweat distance. Only care about being on the right side of the next ball.

Talking about being within a couple of inches of targets sounds really cool, but even double that is not a realistic expectation UNLESS you are playing on identical equipment everywhere you go. Can't speak for anyone else, but that's not the world I live in.

 

[justnum]

Classifying shots by how you can position the Q is something I worked on.

Making it is easy, placing the Q at will is not.

 

[easy-e]

I love the "zone" method. I love bar table 8-ball, and I always try to play the table the same way when going for the run out. I pick the last couple of balls I want as key balls, then try to play position on multiple balls every shot until I get there. It's a little different in rotation games for me. My position is also not as tight as I'd like it to be, so I just figure out what side of the next ball I need to be on and try to land there. I don't mind being a little steep as long as I'm on the right side. I trust my ball-pocketing.