A none murdered animal cue please.

This is becoming one of my favorite threads of all time!

sbe9, It's not that difficult to find hundreds of cues without ivory. Call/Email or visit any retailer or cuemaker they will be glad to help you with your specifics.

All seriousness aside: Elephants stomp/maim/gore/kill dozens of poor barefoot villagers every year ~~ That's their job. I specifically order ivory loaded cues and pay extra for full sized ivory boxes to store them in. It's my small way of supporting the poor villagers. Paciderm ear tips play better than Sniper!:p
 
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seb9 said:
Don't you guys realize that they kill animals to make these cues....

They kill elephants to make your precious ivory cues... elephants are the most peaceful animals on this planet... they are herbivores and they don't harm other species... and yet humans kill them to make cues that could be made even more beautiful with out having to kill a utopia animal like an elephant.

Does no one care about this at all?

Poor elephants...

very sad.


Anyone knows good cues that aren't made with dead elephants? can you please suggest me a few if you don't mind? Thanks.

By the way, I'm not trying to insult anyone, i was just wondering if I'm the only one who cares?
Do you eat chicken? Pork?
:D
 
seb9 said:
Hello friend,

I am sorry but you don't even know who i am or what i do for my convictions :0 it's not small effort, it's life altering.

And also, i am sorry if i sounded like i am passing judgment but if you read the whole thread i explained my self and i really am not here to bash on anyone who doesn't care about ivory in their cues.


seb9, are you Travis Trotter's cousin from overseas?

Come on now, own up to it if you are. We're not going to ban you or him regardless. Inquiring minds want to know just for kindness' sake.
Thanks,
JoeyA
 
Extremely Long but VERY Informative

The following is a post that was made on RSB, years ago by Thomas Wayne - in my opinion one of the finest cuemakers ever to touch wood. I think it is exremely relevant to this post and should put to rest any qualms about using ivory. Here you go...

THINGS YOU DON’T KNOW ABOUT ELEPHANTS AND THEIR IVORY:
______________________________________________________________
Elephants are herbivores, surviving on abrasive plant matter available in their natural habitat. In the process of chewing this plant matter, the elephant tends to wear out its teeth at a rather rapid rate. While a good set of teeth might last us 60 years or more, the elephant goes through a set of teeth in 6 - 10 years. When these teeth are worn out, they are replaced by a new set, allowing for a ‘fresh start’. But there is a limit. Elephants have the capacity for only SIX sets of teeth. When the last set wears out, the elephant, by this time large and masterful, dies a slow and unpleasant death by starvation. Period.

Elephants have no natural enemies; disease and starvation are the only limitations to their continued success in the wild. For this reason, a well protected herd can grow quite rapidly, in fact TOO rapidly for most habitats.

Elephants compete with man for land. As the human populations of the African countries grow, the elephants have increasingly less space to call home. With no commercial value currently attached to the elephant herds, there is little incentive for the local inhabitants to preserve this majestic ‘land hog’.

Elephant Ivory has NEVER sold for more in the United States than it does right now; $110 per pound is about the maximum one has to pay for top quality tusks. By contrast, the Asian countries have ALWAYS been willing to pay premium prices, as high as $200 or more, for the same ivory. This ivory is used for, among other things, the personal "name chops" with which these cultures like to "sign" (ink stamp) their names, hence the term. Because they often cut the ivory into such small pieces, aging and dryness is not so important to them. Logistically, it is much easier to smuggle poached ivory into the Asian countries than to the U.S.; I am unaware of any case of elephant ivory being smuggled into THIS country.
WHO HAS BANNED THE INTERNATIONAL TRADE IN IVORY?

The international trade in wildlife is regulated by the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species (C.I.T.E.S.). Formed in 1973, this multinational (more than 100 countries) division of the UN, housed in Switzerland, meets every two years to determine guidelines for governing the protection of endangered species. In 1990, C.I.T.E.S. officially changed the status of the African elephant from ‘Appendix 2’ (protected/threatened) to ‘Appendix 1’ (endangered). This change banned all international trade in elephant ivory, though the United States had been under a self-imposed ban since 1989.

EVERBODY LOVES ELEPHANTS, SO WHAT COULD BE WRONG WITH BANNING COMMERCIAL TRADE IN ELEPHANT IVORY?

Unfortunately for the elephant, the ban has hurt more than it has helped. When the president of Kenya (Daniel arap Moi) burned a large pile of elephant tusks on international television in 1989, he set fire to a movement for a worldwide ivory ban directed at stopping poaching. While this was fine for the countries of East Africa, where poaching actually WAS a problem, it has spelled disaster for the elephants of southern Africa. Three countries in particular - Zimbabwe, South Africa, and Botswana - had, for over 20 years, successfully managed to INCREASE the size of their herds through careful game management.

Remember the leading causes for elephant deaths: disease and starvation? In a well managed herd, these animals are culled (killed and removed from the herd) in order to allow the rest of the herd to thrive. In fact, most of the news footage of "wanton elephant slaughter by poachers" seen on ‘nature shows’ around the time of the ban was actually film of government-managed herd thinning programs. Not coincidentally, after culling, the commercially desirable ivory, hides and meat are then sold on the open market. Or at least they WERE sold, until the ban took effect. The successful game management programs of these exemplary countries were paid for, in abundance, through the sale of salvaged elephant products. By 1992, for example, Zimbabwe had culled more than 44,000 elephants over a 25 year period, yet their herds continued to increase in numbers. South Africa and Botswana have similar tracks records. In fact, by 1992 there were more than 650,000 elephants in the wild! Never before in history has a species with such huge numbers been labeled "endangered".

Now, the problem is land. The unchecked growth of elephant herds has collided squarely with the humans’ growing need for living space. With this conflict, the ability of these countries to manage their herds has all but evaporated. Botswana’s planned schedule of limiting its elephant population at about 55,000 has become financially impossible. The success of any game management plan hinges on its finances. It is very hard to justify using continually larger tracts of land to house an abundant species that isn’t even allowed to pay for its own keep. And you can just about forget about defending against poachers. Since poachers are most generally shot to death on sight, they tend to fight back pretty ferociously. It’s kind of hard to find game officers willing to risk their lives battling heavily armed ivory thieves for minimum wage!

SO, WHAT THE HELL AM I SAYING HERE, ANYWAY?

What I am saying here is, Laura - with all due respect - your plea for cuemakers to stop using ivory, while clearly quite passionate is, in a word: misguided. African elephants are not only NOT in danger of extinction, at this point they are actually suffering from OVER-population. Meanwhile, poaching is under control, but not for much longer. These African countries are running out of resources, and when something finally has to give, it’s going to be the elephants. Without the income from salvaged elephant products, these successful game management programs are doomed. It’s just a matter of time.

Your suggestion that "the US has recently lifted an ivory embargo against Japan" is way off base. In fact, C.I.T.E.S. has just recently approved (the U.S. opposed this) a ONE-TIME bulk sale of elephant ivory to Japan to help satisfy that market demand and to defray southern African game management expenses. This ivory is from the culled stockpiles that countries like Zimbabwe have collected and stored since the ban was imposed. The amount allowed was significantly smaller than the Southern African Centre for Ivory Marketing (SACIM) had requested. This highly controlled and greatly limited trade agreement, while merely a ‘drop in the bucket’, has been hailed by the southern African conservationists as a first step in the right direction.

As for your statement that: "Using Ivory encourages poaching", well, allow me to respectfully disagree:

Ivory can be found in the finest of all art forms, both ancient and modern. In a multitude of examples throughout history, it has created the greatest impact of any material used. It is really only a recent fad to look at ivory as a negative thing. This frenzied ‘knee-jerk’ reaction to sensationalistic journalism - at its worst - has resulted in a political climate wherein the African elephant might finally be destroyed by the very forces that would seek to "save" it. Your argument that "using [ancient, legal] ivory encourages poaching" is, at best, naive. It presupposes that the entire population of the earth can be persuaded by a few idealistic ‘tree-huggers’. Why do you think synthetic ferrule materials are made ivory colored? One of the more popular materials for this purpose is even called "Ivorine 3"! Laura, are your ferrules a non-ivory color (say black phenolic, for example)? No? Well, aren’t you worried that you’ll help feed the public desire for ivory with your look-alike substitute? :-] People want ivory. It’s that simple. The solution to protecting the elephant is to REGULATE ivory use, not ban it. In that way, the elephant can fund (in excess) its own survival. But without the regulated sale of salvaged ivory, the elephant may ultimately be doomed.

As for cuemakers, you can sleep peacefully on that issue. Any cuemaker foolish enough to use fresh ("green") ivory in a cue will get what he so richly deserves. As a general rule, if I can’t document that a tusk was taken (at a minimum) BEFORE I was born, I won’t buy it.

If you REALLY want to do something to ‘save’ the elephant, perhaps you’d be willing to send large sums of money to some of these south African countries to help fund their game management programs. I’ll be happy to provide you with the addresses...

Thomas Wayne
 
seb9 said:
are there no rules on this board about not taking a thread off topic?

First rule of Main Forum is, you do not talk about Main forum.

The second rule of Main Forum is.... you do NOT talk about Main Forum!
 
seb9 said:
Have you not heard of artificial leather?

Sure. Vinyl, pleather, ultra-suede, whatever you want to call it. It's a petroleum based product used primarily in clothing and furniture, but not cue tips.
Maybe you could post some links to all the artificial leather cue tips you are referring to, because I'm not aware of any.
Certainly there are specialty synthetic tips available like phenolic, but no "artificial leather" ones that I know of. I'd like to see some information please.
 
seb9 said:
The tittle is the truth, it was to say what the thread is about and why i started it.

You are being blinded by your convictions. Whether or not it is "murder" is OPINION, not FACT. We are not talking about humans here. As much as you empathize with animals, they are not humans. Unless we have a law against killing them and eating them, they are our food.

Even if a poacher kills an elephant illegally, it's not murder. In America, you'd get MAYBE a few years in prison per offense, not 10-15 years as you would with murder.

The official definition of murder is "The unlawful killing of one human by another." So it is IMPOSSIBLE to "murder" an animal. By the title of your thread, you insinuate that you believe an animal life is equal to a human life, and therefore killing an animal is just as bad as killing a human.

Guess what? According to the law, it's not. Not even close.

I had fish for dinner, how about you?

I did not call the tittle ''you guys are fools for using murdered animals on your cues'' did I?

NO

You can do whatever you want i am not bashing you...

If you are going to post to an english forum, you better damn well have your word meanings and usage correct on such a controversial topic. Your use of the term "murder" as I said before, automatically assumes that killing an animal is wrong. There's quite a few people (like me) who will STRENUOUSLY disagree with you. So just by USING the word murder, you are attacking us.


A none murdered animal cue is indeed what i am looking for.

Perhaps it's you who likes to get offended?

As long as you keep using the word "murder", I'll keep getting offended. In my mind, it is perfectly fine to kill an animal for food or profit, allowing for laws. Even if it IS against the law, it's not murder.

if you want go start a thread and call it, I want a murdered animal cue and you know what, i would not be offended.

See, the thing is, I would title it, "I want a cue with REAL ivory.", and I wouldn't have to worry about pissing off all the people who might be able to give me the information.

As long as you keep using the words "murdered animal cue", in comparision to "cue using animal products", I'll keep responding.

I'm always up for a good troll baiting.. :D

Russ
 
JoeyInCali said:
Do you eat chicken? Pork?
:D

No, I've been vegan for 5 years.

but all i wanted from this thread was to find a cue that was not made from ivory but you people informed me that it's not real ivory and i am relief that the companies were just lying about the material being used

I thank you all who helped me in my quest of finding a cue, this thread although a bit ruff due to misunderstanding turned out to be very very helpful .
 
Russ Chewning said:
You are being blinded by your convictions. Whether or not it is "murder" is OPINION, not FACT. We are not talking about humans here. As much as you empathize with animals, they are not humans. Unless we have a law against killing them and eating them, they are our food.


Do you just let the system think for your self?

Im sorry but i have an opinion that comes from with in and i am not gonna change it because the general public does not agree with my views.

I have the right to consider all life forms who are experiencing this reality to be equally as important as humans.

the fact that you are offended by my thread tittle simply means that you think it's about you, well trust me, it is not about you.

I had no intentions to offend or insult anyone, please try to realize this.
 
Russ Chewning said:
As long as you keep using the word "murder", I'll keep getting offended. In my mind, it is perfectly fine to kill an animal for food or profit, allowing for laws. Even if it IS against the law, it's not murder.

That's kind of hypocrite right there, so you are telling me i have no right to think for my self and consider killing an animal murder but you have the right to think it's ok to kill an animal because the law says so?

Hypocrisy at it's best...

I am not telling you to change your views on killing animals, so please don't tell me to change mine.......
 
seb9 said:
Do you just let the system think for your self?

Im sorry but i have an opinion that comes from with in and i am not gonna change it because the general public does not agree with my views.

I have the right to consider all life forms who are experiencing this reality to be equally as important as humans.

the fact that you are offended by my thread tittle simply means that you think it's about you, well trust me, it is not about you.

I had no intentions to offend or insult anyone, please try to realize this.

Okay.. fine.. You have an opinion. Be aware of this, however. I know you said you are foreign, so I'll break it down for yah.

A lot of Americans have a misunderstanding about free speech. They believe it gives them both the right to say whatever they want, AND that people actually have to respect what they say.

Couldn't be further from the truth. They DO have the right to say what they want, but if they are in the minority with their beliefs, they will often be subject to verbal/written attacks.

I think your brand of activism, using words like "murdered" pertaining to animals, is misguided. You will turn many people off behaving in that manner.

Another poster referenced a PBS special on elephants. Somehow, I am betting they never used the word "murder" in reference to the elephants. That program managed to change a few people's perspectives, all without using emotive words like you do.

I really do have sympathy for species that are actually in danger of going extinct. But people like you make me not give a crap.

If you really care about the elephants, you just MAY want to reconsider the way you try to educate people. Because what you did today in this thread was not the way to go about it.

Russ
 
seb9 said:
That's kind of hypocrite right there, so you are telling me i have no right to think for my self and consider killing an animal murder but you have the right to think it's ok to kill an animal because the law says so?

Hypocrisy at it's best...

I am not telling you to change your views on killing animals, so please don't tell me to change mine.......

I'm not telling you to change your views. I'm just telling you I think the way you are communicating your beliefs is going to piss off more people than it will change their minds.

And I never said you have no rights to think whatever you want. It's just that I simply uphold my right to tell you I think you're full of baloney.

See how that goes both ways? You say what you believe, I say what I believe, rinse and repeat, and the first person to shut up and go away loses.. :D

Russ
 
Russ Chewning said:
I really do have sympathy for species that are actually in danger of going extinct. But people like you make me not give a crap.


Perhaps you should stop putting other people into consideration when you have a motive for such things as not killing animals...

You see, whatever you say or think won't change the way i feel about thinking equal of animals so i don't see why what i say or think should change your views on anything at all.

This is the problem in my opinion with most of what's going on right now, people can't think for them selves unaltered.
 
seb9 said:
That's kind of hypocrite right there, so you are telling me i have no right to think for my self and consider killing an animal murder but you have the right to think it's ok to kill an animal because the law says so?

Hypocrisy at it's best...

I am not telling you to change your views on killing animals, so please don't tell me to change mine.......

_____________________________________________________

seb9---- I believe the HUGE majority here respect your opinion and demand for a cue without ivory or animal products. Just don't call us murderers and hipocrits for using a smidgen of ivory harvested 80 years ago or leather tips.

Good luck in finding the right cue for you seb9. Be happy and don't let our slightly twisted humor bother you too much.:)
 
Russ Chewning said:
I'm not telling you to change your views. I'm just telling you I think the way you are communicating your beliefs is going to piss off more people than it will change their minds.

See how that goes both ways? You say what you believe, I say what I believe, rinse and repeat, and the first person to shut up and go away loses.. :D

Russ

Well i this is not about winning for me, so i give you the win i don't mind.

And you are right, i will change my thread tittle if it's gonna trow the thread off topic.
 
Whoa! 8 pages in 2 and a half hours over cues without ivories? You guys need to relax. So he made a mistake in his choice of words, what's the big deal? He's foreign and he already said it wasn't his intention to sound like that.
 
seb9 said:
Well i this is not about winning for me, so i give you the win i don't mind.

And you are right, i will change my thread tittle if it's gonna trow the thread off topic.
The title didn't throw this thread off topic...

Valdezad.jpg

...me and my army of random pictures is whats gonna throw this thread off topic, baby!
 
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