Additionally- why are you only defining expertise in terms of how the OB drops? If CB control is enhanced by hitting the rail first with the OB why isn't that considered as a component of the overall shot? Why change the pocket shape to eliminate the options on the other half of the shot?
A potentially new take on pocket cuts?
- Thread starter nathandumoulin
- Start date
Additionally- why are you only defining expertise in terms of how the OB drops? If CB control is enhanced by hitting the rail first with the OB why isn't that considered as a component of the overall shot? Why change the pocket shape to eliminate the options on the other half of the shot?
So has this ability to adjust your style moved you up from a 3 yet?? Or maybe you are now up to a HA10KB training level and have moved up????
Only teasing ya Duckie keep on keeping on... Doesn't matter how we get better as long as we are.......
I Diamondized my Brunswick with 4" pockets. I can shoot balls down the rails at warp speed and the pockets will take them. When you straight edge the pocket opening along the rail there's only about a tip width extra bigger than the ball.
If you cut the facings and the down angles right, like Glen says, the balls will fall as long as you hit the pocket. I enjoy the tighter pockets for practice, but I think 4 1/2" is better for tournaments.
Best,
Mike
This does cut to the heart of the issue; well said.
Why don't we have a standard for pocket cuts where shots are about equally difficult from the center of the table as they are off the rail? a 4" pocket means about 7/8" margin on either side of the OB for spot shots. 7/8" margin on either side for rail shots means you should be able to pocket the ball if it separates from the rail by 7/8", and you should be able to pocket the ball if it brushes the adjacent rail on its way, as long as it brushes it lightly, and near the pocket.
Seems like you'd get that behavior from a fairly tight pocket with facings pretty close to parallel and a not-too-deep shelf.
-Andrew
risky biz:
First, where do you see any place where "I" said that how the object ball drops determines expertise? I did say that in other cue sports, they view pool tables that accept object balls glancing off the adjoining rail as sloppily-hit shots. And this is true. As an exercise to the reader, if you read any of the comments underneath YouTube pool match videos where it's seen that such shots go in, you'll see the ubiquitous "black hole" / "bucket pockets" comments from the snooker snobs. I was merely playing a gentle devil's advocate there.
I do believe that there should be a balance -- one *should* be able to hit shots down the cushion at speed, and have the pocket accept the shot. I myself like to let my stroke out -- I want to be able to get position from anywhere on the table, merely by speed and angle, and if need be, spin. It feels good to really thump shots home.
As for the Diamond tables you describe where you're able to hit the cushion "quite a ways back" (not sure what that means -- a full diamond?) and have it still score, is that a function because you hit the shot at pocket speed, or is your Diamond configured a little relaxed in terms of pockets? BTW, Justin's podcast with Mark Griffin, Earl, and Shane is a good reference for what I'm saying. Towards the last third the podcast, you can reference what I'm talking about, where Earl explains this very situation, and demonstrates it:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zoCKGrlZHvg#t=48m
(This link will take you right to that section.)
It's all a perception issue -- some folks see no problem with pockets that accept balls that wobble-in from an adjoining rail; other folks see that situation as an indication of sloppy pockets -- as if the object ball were a drunken sailor bumping in every lamp post on his way home.
This is actually a GREAT thread, because I see Nate's side of the story -- one *should* be able to hit shots down the rail hard and have it score; if we want to make the pocket more difficult, just reduce its size. But, at what point does the pocket become so small, that you have in essence a snooker table, but with chiseled pockets?
-Sean
"One of the problems with pool, is that it is the only cue sport where you can send a ball towards a corner pocket, have it glance off the adjoining cushion on its way down towards the corner pocket (by as much as a full diamond), and *still* go in the pocket."
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant when you said it was a problem.
On a Diamond shooting six inches out from the long rail on one end of the table you can hit just inside the last diamond on the far end and it will go in the corner pocket. But everyone knows that.
I agree, I think you did misunderstand what I meant. Like I said, I was playing a little devil's advocate there. The, "One of the problems with pool ..." statement is playing the devil's advocate. You seemed to laser-focus in on only that statement, and ignored the rest of the context of my post, which was actually defending the direction that pool tables / pocket cuts were taking.
The snooker snobs are short-sighted in demeaning pool players and pool equipment, because they don't understand that one of the attractions to pool is what you can do with the cue ball that is nearly impossible to do in snooker.
I do get what Nate's saying though; there is a point where the "fixes" that pool is applying to the pockets to "make it tougher" get counter-productive. But to take that stance to a logical conclusion, at what point does the pool table stop being a pool table, and starts looking like a snooker table?
-Sean
I think Nathan is right about the way the openings and shelf affect the game.
But the more the rail is extended into the pocket to make the opening smaller, the shorter the shelf will be anyway, so most tables play more fair the more they are shimmed in my experience. Will a diamond with 3 and 7/8 inch pockets hang balls very often?
But the more the rail is extended into the pocket to make the opening smaller, the shorter the shelf will be anyway, so most tables play more fair the more they are shimmed in my experience. Will a diamond with 3 and 7/8 inch pockets hang balls very often?
That brings up another issue... "why don't we have a standard for..."
We don't have a universally recognized governing body or a standard for any aspect of the equipment. It's like... what if the nfl played half its games on a 70 yard field, and the nba occasionally had 11 foot high hoops. First we need a governing body, then we all gotta agree on standards, then we gotta get equipment manufacturers to abandon existing construction methods to conform to that standard. Ugh.
The standard for rail shots you mentioned doesn't quite work because the rail will always interfere with part of the pocket. Part of it is blocked, so the rail shot is always going to have less room for error. I guess you could still have 7/8" margin for error in both directions (either it hits the facing/jaw for a slight overcut, or it hits the rail for a slight undercut") but I never really measured if you can get just as much cheat with "rail helpers" as you can drilling it straight into an open pocket from the spot. I suspect you can't, a rail shot will always be a smaller pocket.
There's also the speed and distance to account for. Should it accept a slight rail brush at warp speed? What if it's 7/8" off the rail and inches from the pocket? if you hit the rail on the way in there, you butchered the shot and it's not supposed to go in. Whereas if it barely brushes the rail on a 7 foot rail cut, you hit it pretty sporty.
I played on the diamonds at Derby city and at first it was difficult and frustrating but after about 12 hours of play, I started tightening up my shots. The fact of the matter is, the pro's do run out all the time on Diamonds and don't appear to have too many complaints. They know how to aim at the largest portion of the pocket or the right side of the pocket. Problem with just a straight goldcrown is you could essentially teach yourself to make balls on the wrong side of the pocket because they will drop and give you bad habits. Where as if you learn how to aim on a Diamond, you should never have a problem on a goldcrown.
Im going to buy a GC4 soon probably and I want it to play like a diamond or close to it. What exactly do I have to do in order to achieve this result? Im thinking double shimmed only.
I have to admit, I dont like that feeling when I have to draw a ball fairly hard and know even if I do hit the pocket well, it may jaw on a diamond. Once again though, if you hit it really well it wont jaw...
Im going to buy a GC4 soon probably and I want it to play like a diamond or close to it. What exactly do I have to do in order to achieve this result? Im thinking double shimmed only.
I have to admit, I dont like that feeling when I have to draw a ball fairly hard and know even if I do hit the pocket well, it may jaw on a diamond. Once again though, if you hit it really well it wont jaw...
I have a GC4 and discussed this with Donny of SD Billiards before he set up my table. I didn't particularly want it to play like a Diamond, just about the equivalent difficulty. I settled on 4.25" pockets (sub-rail extensions,not shims) and couldn't be happier. Plays difficult but very fair. A ball hit with speed near the rail will go in if well struck so I don't face any speed shots that can't be made almost no matter how good you hit it. He could give you the details on all the pocket angles, I'm not sure.
As I said, in my case I didn't want it to play like a Diamond. If I wanted that I would have bought a Diamond. I wanted it to play like a well set up Gold Crown but with about the equivalent difficulty as a pro cut Diamond (4.5" pockets). I don't really think a GC can play the same because of the deeper shelf on the Diamond. The deep shelf just introduces certain characteristics that I don't believe can be perfectly replicated just by playing with the various pocket angles. But because the deeper shelf makes life a little more difficult I felt the GC pockets had to be a little tighter to require a bit more accuracy. 4 1/4" is good for all games. Any tighter and you end up with a one pocket table. Just my opinion, of course.
This is good thank you. I know a reasonable amount of knowledge about pool but in comparison, really dont know jack about the equipment. What exactly is a "sub rail shim" does this raise the height of the rails?
yes please send me the details of this process so I can discuss it with my table mechanic...
yes please send me the details of this process so I can discuss it with my table mechanic...
This topic.
This has been talked about more than once in the Ask a Mechanics section. RKC has gone to great lengths to explain the difference in the pocket cuts, between tables he has also attempted to get table mechanics to agree on standardized criteria. The problem is too many people think they know how to work on tables. Many people want to DIY when it comes their table. As far as a standardized pocket opening, the big table company's aren't on the same page till that happens its a personal choice of the mechanics to deliver a quality product.
I decided myself that I wanted a great playing table. So I researched and contacted a reputable mechanic to have my rails calibrated. In doing so I believe I have the best playing 8' gold crown II anybody could have. That is due to the fact the rails were recut correctly after new rubber was installed not gaffed up by shimming it and hoping the angle stays correct.
Thanks again SDBilliards!
This has been talked about more than once in the Ask a Mechanics section. RKC has gone to great lengths to explain the difference in the pocket cuts, between tables he has also attempted to get table mechanics to agree on standardized criteria. The problem is too many people think they know how to work on tables. Many people want to DIY when it comes their table. As far as a standardized pocket opening, the big table company's aren't on the same page till that happens its a personal choice of the mechanics to deliver a quality product.
I decided myself that I wanted a great playing table. So I researched and contacted a reputable mechanic to have my rails calibrated. In doing so I believe I have the best playing 8' gold crown II anybody could have. That is due to the fact the rails were recut correctly after new rubber was installed not gaffed up by shimming it and hoping the angle stays correct.
Thanks again SDBilliards!
Last edited:
At some point, making the pockets too small begins to alter the nature of the game. Consider Russian Pyramid. The pocket is just a hair bigger than the ball itself.
Pool has a lot of shot making and cue ball movement. That is possible due to the larger pockets. Have to be able to cheat the pockets at times too.
I think the sweet spot is 4.5" ...but anything from 4.25" - 4.75" is fine. The game is still the same. I think 5" pockets and larger should become obsolete. Those are sewers. The Diamond 4.75" "league cut" pockets are a good larger pocket limit in my opinion.
Pool has been a game where, as long as there is a direct path to the pocket - the object ball should be able to drop (if hit perfectly) from anywhere on the table. Direct path means not being corner hooked. When the pockets are made too small, the ability to shoot them down the rail and make the ball becomes unreasonably difficult to impossible. In Pyramid, the ball cannot be made down the rail. The table prevents that. But that game is played differently, it allows for caroms and all the balls can be cue balls.
I'm not opposed to the deeper shelf on the Diamond. What it effectively does is, make the pocket smaller. In other words, it makes the target zone within the pocket smaller. Getting the ball past the points is not enough. It's not true that it causes pocket speed play, or slow rolling. To prove that, freeze a few balls together aiming at the pocket from anywhere on the table, and hit the combo as hard as you can. The pocket will eat the ball. On all tables, the faster the shot - the smaller they are because hitting the pocket faces is more likely to cause the shot to be rejected.
Pool balls being 2.25" diameter will dictate a limit on how small the pockets can be before the game itself begins to be altered. There was a time when pool tables did not have sewers for pockets. The sewer thing began pool was marketed to everyone, and the industry thought everyone could have a pool table in their house.
If you want to make bangers happy, have 5.25" pockets, put a fast cloth on the table like 760 and use 'speed' cueballs (same diameter ball, but slightly lighter). The pockets will eat anything. Balls will slide off cushions and into pockets from 2.5 diamonds out. They will be able to draw the cueball the length of the table. They will feel like champions.
I knew a room owner that provided equipment set up like that. No regular from that room had a real stroke, nor much aim. This was genius, because when they would go other places, they would be miserable that they can't make a ball or get any action on the CB. Thus, it created dependency. These players only liked to play at that place. Hey, they were happy, so was the owner. Ignorance is bliss.
Pool has a lot of shot making and cue ball movement. That is possible due to the larger pockets. Have to be able to cheat the pockets at times too.
I think the sweet spot is 4.5" ...but anything from 4.25" - 4.75" is fine. The game is still the same. I think 5" pockets and larger should become obsolete. Those are sewers. The Diamond 4.75" "league cut" pockets are a good larger pocket limit in my opinion.
Pool has been a game where, as long as there is a direct path to the pocket - the object ball should be able to drop (if hit perfectly) from anywhere on the table. Direct path means not being corner hooked. When the pockets are made too small, the ability to shoot them down the rail and make the ball becomes unreasonably difficult to impossible. In Pyramid, the ball cannot be made down the rail. The table prevents that. But that game is played differently, it allows for caroms and all the balls can be cue balls.
I'm not opposed to the deeper shelf on the Diamond. What it effectively does is, make the pocket smaller. In other words, it makes the target zone within the pocket smaller. Getting the ball past the points is not enough. It's not true that it causes pocket speed play, or slow rolling. To prove that, freeze a few balls together aiming at the pocket from anywhere on the table, and hit the combo as hard as you can. The pocket will eat the ball. On all tables, the faster the shot - the smaller they are because hitting the pocket faces is more likely to cause the shot to be rejected.
Pool balls being 2.25" diameter will dictate a limit on how small the pockets can be before the game itself begins to be altered. There was a time when pool tables did not have sewers for pockets. The sewer thing began pool was marketed to everyone, and the industry thought everyone could have a pool table in their house.
If you want to make bangers happy, have 5.25" pockets, put a fast cloth on the table like 760 and use 'speed' cueballs (same diameter ball, but slightly lighter). The pockets will eat anything. Balls will slide off cushions and into pockets from 2.5 diamonds out. They will be able to draw the cueball the length of the table. They will feel like champions.
I knew a room owner that provided equipment set up like that. No regular from that room had a real stroke, nor much aim. This was genius, because when they would go other places, they would be miserable that they can't make a ball or get any action on the CB. Thus, it created dependency. These players only liked to play at that place. Hey, they were happy, so was the owner. Ignorance is bliss.
They are not shims. The mechanic actually extends the sub rails to properly accept longer cushions. Then the normal shims are applied.
If you peruse the mechanics forum you will find several threads with pictures that explain it. But essentially it is the correct way to tighten pockets so the table plays correctly. Of course, it costs more than shims and you need new, longer rubber.
Here are a couple of threads to get you started:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=259421
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=213185
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=70808&highlight=subrail+extension
Don't get any installer to do this. You need a mechanic that knows what he's doing. Several of the guys around here, like Donny Wessel and Mark Gregory, can do them if you just ship them the rails. You can also see if RKC will be in your area. But done right you will have pockets that are all the correct angles and play correctly, not dead like when you shim the snot out of them.
Last edited: