A reoccuring issue for me and the A Joint

T

Tony Zinzola

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can't figure out what I can be doing wrong.

When attaching the handle to the Forearm, I get everything trued up and give it a dry run to make sure it's spinning true. You would think the dial indicator was broken when I check it, so I go ahead and glue it up.

I then put it back on the lathe to check it and I am constantly getting run out. Sometimes as much as 5 / 1000ths and I can't figure out why. Sometimes all it takes is for me to back it out a bit and re-tighten it. Other times it seems like I can play with it for a day and can't get it to spin perfect again.

Does anybody have any insight as to what is causing this or what I can do to avoid it. If I see the needle moving on the indicator, I feel like it's destined to be firewood.

I am using radial connecting pins with a glue relief and I cut glue relief in the tenon, so it shouldn't be due to pressure pushing it back out. I use West 205 for the pins.

Any help would be appreciated. I'm almost ready to throw my equipment into the fire along with my screw ups and find a new hobby. It's getting that frustrating.
 
Tony Zinzola said:
I can't figure out what I can be doing wrong.

When attaching the handle to the Forearm, I get everything trued up and give it a dry run to make sure it's spinning true. You would think the dial indicator was broken when I check it, so I go ahead and glue it up.

I then put it back on the lathe to check it and I am constantly getting run out. Sometimes as much as 5 / 1000ths and I can't figure out why. Sometimes all it takes is for me to back it out a bit and re-tighten it. Other times it seems like I can play with it for a day and can't get it to spin perfect again.

Does anybody have any insight as to what is causing this or what I can do to avoid it. If I see the needle moving on the indicator, I feel like it's destined to be firewood.

I am using radial connecting pins with a glue relief and I cut glue relief in the tenon, so it shouldn't be due to pressure pushing it back out. I use West 205 for the pins.

Any help would be appreciated. I'm almost ready to throw my equipment into the fire along with my screw ups and find a new hobby. It's getting that frustrating.
Click to expand...


Tony .......Calm down, take a deep breath.........
The most important thing to remember when joining the fore to the handle is facing off both pieces properly. Both faces MUST be at a perfect 90 from the centerline of each of the two pieces you are wanting to mate or you will have run out every time.
The best way to do this is to face the fore and the handle between centers before drawing them together.
Of course your set-up must be in line also when doing this.
DO NOT over tighten them when dry fitting OR when gluing them together.
One trick I do is once they are dry fitted... before you break them down to apply the glue, put a witness mark on both pieces because when you apply the glue it will act as a lubricate and you will surely over tighten them. Once the glue is applied only bring them back together where the marks meet up.
Also the material being used on the faces may have effect on the mating.
Some use ebony.... some use phenolic, it may help to use something hard for the faces.

Hope this helps.......
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Tony .......Calm down, take a deep breath.........
The most important thing to remember when joining the fore to the handle is facing off both pieces properly. Both faces MUST be at a perfect 90 from the centerline of each of the two pieces you are wanting to mate or you will have run out every time.
The best way to do this is to face the fore and the handle between centers before drawing them together.
Of course your set-up must be in line also when doing this.
DO NOT over tighten them when dry fitting OR when gluing them together.
One trick I do is once they are dry fitted... before you break them down to apply the glue, put a witness mark on both pieces because when you apply the glue it will act as a lubricate and you will surely over tighten them. Once the glue is applied only bring them back together where the marks meet up.
Also the material being used on the faces may have effect on the mating.
Some use ebony.... some use phenolic, it may help to use something hard for the faces.

Hope this helps.......
Click to expand...


way to go:) i love you good guys..... im thinking right about now a slushy

rootbeer would be reeeeaaaaal gooood :D
 
I have experienced the same thing, Tony.
You try your best to get a dead nuts fit and then after applying the glue something just dont line up like it did before.
OK ... you have faced off both ends properly so that is not an issue.
The only thing left is the joint rings.
If they are not perfectly flat it will throw the joint off at a slight angle resulting in runout.
When that happens I back off the joint and rotate the rings around until I get an acceptable runout. (the sweet spot)
At some spot it will line up and life will again be good.

Welcome to the world of cuemaking, Tony, where even the simplest operation is yet another oppertiunity to screw up the best cue you have ever built.
Aint that the truth!
 
Last edited:
Welcome to the world of cuemaking, Tony, where even the simplest operation is yet another oppertiunity to screw up the best cue you have ever built.
Click to expand...


TAP.TAP.TAP

That about sums it up sometimes.......Dave
 
205 hardener is kinda thick. Why not use 206?
Let it whick on the faces before joining too.
 
JoeyInCali said:
205 hardener is kinda thick. Why not use 206?
Let it whick on the faces before joining too.
Click to expand...

Joey ... what is this?
It dont seem to fit into this topic.
 
WilleeCue said:
Joey ... what is this?
It dont seem to fit into this topic.
Click to expand...
Okies, my bad. Am not crazy about fast hardener.
The thinner the hardner the better for me at the A-joint ( not 207 though ).

One sure way to get that handle's face flat is stick a centerholed radial pin in there and face it while that pin is on the live center on the tailstock, stretched out.
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Tony .......Calm down, take a deep breath.........
The most important thing to remember when joining the fore to the handle is facing off both pieces properly. Both faces MUST be at a perfect 90 from the centerline of each of the two pieces you are wanting to mate or you will have run out every time.
The best way to do this is to face the fore and the handle between centers before drawing them together.
Of course your set-up must be in line also when doing this.
DO NOT over tighten them when dry fitting OR when gluing them together.
One trick I do is once they are dry fitted... before you break them down to apply the glue, put a witness mark on both pieces because when you apply the glue it will act as a lubricate and you will surely over tighten them. Once the glue is applied only bring them back together where the marks meet up.
Also the material being used on the faces may have effect on the mating.
Some use ebony.... some use phenolic, it may help to use something hard for the faces.

Hope this helps.......
Click to expand...


Good stuff;) I prefer to face between centers too, and the glue lubricating, Your not kidding there, I still remember one that could be screwed on as tight as I wanted dry, but when I tried that after glueing It stripped the thing out fairly easily. I had glue relief also, so I don't think It expanded. Could easily overtighten when the glue is added, found that out the hard way, but now I pay attention to that. Seems like softer woods are worse about doing that.


Greg
 
Just a few days ago I was making a final cut on a $3000+ cue that I have been working on for 4 years. Something happened to the taper bar bearing & the entire tool carriage jolted. This dug the router deep into the cue & this caused sudden & severe vibration that virtually shredded the cue. It was lost, four years & hundreds in materials wasted in a split second. Who's fault was it? I could blame the machine but it was me. I had recently made a slight adjustment to my butt taper & blatantly disregarded the fact that I should have run a few test runs before sending a real pass. But I didn't do it & I payed for it. The stabilizer bar from my carriage to my taper bar bearing actually made physical contact with the taper bar itsself, and created a lock kinda like a car break.

Stupid little things ruin very nice cues. It's part of cuemaking. Long hours in the shop will make you tired & tired is careless & careless causes mistakes. Not many jobs in the world are as specialized as cuemaking & require as much in-depth knowledge & skills. Not only are you a woodworker but are a precision machinist, artist, engineer, & mechanical technition. Above all else you are a solid player with the game always on your mind while building, wanting to create that perfect tool to execute those balls. Another trait common of cuemakers is physcosis & perfectionist. All of this going on in one man's head while putting something together can really increase your chance of error. To be honest, i'm amazed at what some cuemakers can accomplish. I have never met a stupid cuemaker, but several borderline crazy ones. You are creating a unique, precise & very intricate work of funcional art using organic & unstable materials. Cut yourself some slack if something goes wrong. Learn & do better next time. From what I can see you are well on your way, which means you are probably a true lid flipper, a real whacko if you know what I mean :) Keep up the good work.
 
i am having the same exact problem. when u face both side and put the forearm and handle together i an getting runnout also and it is making my points off.

i was ready to sell my equiptment also
i think i might be over tightening. i use 3-8x10 aluminum rod i cut myself to join the parts. here is the cue



 
qbilder said:
Just a few days ago I was making a final cut on a $3000+ cue that I have been working on for 4 years. Something happened to the taper bar bearing & the entire tool carriage jolted. This dug the router deep into the cue & this caused sudden & severe vibration that virtually shredded the cue. It was lost, four years & hundreds in materials wasted in a split second. Who's fault was it? I could blame the machine but it was me. I had recently made a slight adjustment to my butt taper & blatantly disregarded the fact that I should have run a few test runs before sending a real pass. But I didn't do it & I payed for it. The stabilizer bar from my carriage to my taper bar bearing actually made physical contact with the taper bar itsself, and created a lock kinda like a car break.

Stupid little things ruin very nice cues. It's part of cuemaking. Long hours in the shop will make you tired & tired is careless & careless causes mistakes. Not many jobs in the world are as specialized as cuemaking & require as much in-depth knowledge & skills. Not only are you a woodworker but are a precision machinist, artist, engineer, & mechanical technition. Above all else you are a solid player with the game always on your mind while building, wanting to create that perfect tool to execute those balls. Another trait common of cuemakers is physcosis & perfectionist. All of this going on in one man's head while putting something together can really increase your chance of error. To be honest, i'm amazed at what some cuemakers can accomplish. I have never met a stupid cuemaker, but several borderline crazy ones. You are creating a unique, precise & very intricate work of funcional art using organic & unstable materials. Cut yourself some slack if something goes wrong. Learn & do better next time. From what I can see you are well on your way, which means you are probably a true lid flipper, a real whacko if you know what I mean :) Keep up the good work.
Click to expand...



I see You understand the concept behind My user ID;) :D Anyone that continues to pursue this for any reasonable amount of time is bound to be alitle crazy for sticking with It:p
Sometimes It seems for every one thing that can go right, there are ten that can lead in disaster.

Greg
 
Greg, only two things come easily in this business. That is heartache & failure. Even they take a lot of work to do correctly. For everything else, there's Mastercard :)
 
qbilder said:
Greg, only two things come easily in this business. That is heartache & failure. Even they take a lot of work to do correctly. For everything else, there's Mastercard :)
Click to expand...




:D:D :D That's for sure, Especially the heartache part, plenty of that to go around when the mastercard runs out.;)
 
JoeyInCali said:
205 hardener is kinda thick. Why not use 206?
Let it whick on the faces before joining too.
Click to expand...

I mistyped. I am using 206. The slow hardener. Without looking at the cans, I can't remember which is which.

I think the witness marks that BarenbruggeCues may be the key for me here. There is no doubt in my mind that I may be over tightening once I have the glue in there.

We'll see how things go tomorrow.

Note it's 2:46 AM here. I can't sleep when I'm having issues like this.
 
Are the forearm & handle turned to their final size, when you are joining them????? If not & you have .005 runout, just shim the small end until the indicator runs true at the points & take your final cuts...JER
 
Normally, they are not down to their final size, but in the case of the cue that prompted me to post, they were (due to another screw up on my part).

If they weren't down to size, I'd live with what I had and correct the points if need be later, but in this case, I need it perfect.

I seem to be getting some that go together so smooth, I think I finally have it down and then ones that I have to screw around with for what seems like hours after I glue it up.
 
Tony Zinzola said:
Normally, they are not down to their final size, but in the case of the cue that prompted me to post, they were (due to another screw up on my part).

If they weren't down to size, I'd live with what I had and correct the points if need be later, but in this case, I need it perfect.

I seem to be getting some that go together so smooth, I think I finally have it down and then ones that I have to screw around with for what seems like hours after I glue it up.
Click to expand...
What size is your wood tenon?
Do you bore the handle to exact ID with glue channel?
Do you have a jig with a radial pin and tenon to match the hole?
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
Are the forearm & handle turned to their final size, when you are joining them????? If not & you have .005 runout, just shim the small end until the indicator runs true at the points & take your final cuts...JER
Click to expand...
This is where the "over-sized" handle comes into play. Another way to help this is:

You can put an indicator on the prong side of the joint (close to the seam) and check for the high spot by rotating the CHUCK by hand. Mark the high spot with a pencil.
Tap the very end of the butt (above the center drilled hole) down slightly- ***CHECK YOUR TAIL STOCK AT THIS POINT AS THE CUE MAY BE A LITTLE LOOSE*** ( I use a spring loaded center and it takes care of itself) and check the joint again, turning the CHUCK by hand. Tap again...keep tapping, tightening your tailstock, and turning the CHUCK by hand (not the cue). What you are doing is moving the small center in the handle over- out of center.

When you get the joint to where you want it, take the "wobble" out of the handle only by turning just the handle- if your points are even to begin with this keeps them even at this point.

Now, since you have elongated or moved the center in the butt over, I then turn the last 3 inches or so at the but end down just enough to be sure I am touching the wood all the way around (roll your pencil down the butt tenon before turning and you will be able to see if you have removed enough stock), turn the cue around, chuck on the straight tenon you just turned and re-center your hole a little larger than the center before. At this point the handle should still be oversized to the prong for your next turning and you haven't disturbed your PERFECTLY even pointed prong. Re-peat if necessary. If you have to do this often on one cue, JUNK-IT!

All to often I hear or see people turning a perfect prong too early...not realizing they are moving the internal tennon over to one side effecting the "radial" balance of the cue.
( NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS WHAT BLACKHEART IS DOING as he has built more cues that I ;) )

A little cumbersome, and there is more than one way to skin a cat...a lot of this can be avoided with proper machine set-up and held tolerances...
This method takes longer to write that to actually do:D
IMO of course,
Chris
 
Hi Chris; What you said, will work just fine. The poster said that he is .005 off on his indicator. On an over sized butt, I wouldn't think twice about having the internal tenon off center by that amount...JER
 
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