A return to tradition

av84fun said:
And as I have noted elsewhere, traditional shafts have widely varying resistence to deflection and I'll tell ya what, if I knew of a traditional shaft that tested as a LD shaft tests, I would switch to a traditional shaft in a heart beat.
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Ok, thanks for the challenge!

I have a super low squirt shaft that I had Schmelke make for me, for a customized cue they built for me recently. It sure seems to be lower in squirt than the 314 I had, 2 Meucci black-dots, and also my OB-1

It's a cocobolo sneaky pete, 5/16 X 18 wood to wood joint, 19 ounces, with an 11 mm shaft, yes an 11 mm shaft. I also had them lengthen the pro taper on the shaft to go a full 16 inches, and then increase 1/2 mm per inch thereafter, also had them install a 1/4 inch ferrule. I top it off with an Elkmaster tip.

Squirts way less than any of those LD shafts, is more powerful, and has exceptional feel.

I'm playing the best pool of my life with this cue.

Shortly after I got it, I spent probably 25 hours really getting used to the way it plays, and won the next 9 ball handicapped tournament at Chris's in Chicago with it...

A couple of weeks ago I played in another handicapped 9 ball tournament at another pool hall, and one fellow I played after losing to me (he's the higher handicapped player) grabbed my stick when I wasn't looking and shot around with it for several minutes. Didn't say anything, just shot with it. I wonder why??

Try 11 mm.....

Flex
 
I imagine with just the right wood in a shaft and proper tapering/etc you could get most if not all the characteristics of an engineered (pie spliced/whatever) shaft. It might be like trying to find a needle in a haystack though. I think that's why a lot of guys like the engineered LD shafts.

You should be able to count on it's characteristics of lower deflection on a more consistent basis. (?)

Thoughts?
 
You will RECALL that I proposed a "TRUCE" and was met with still more insults from you. But I'll do so again...here an now.
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Jim, to me you're just another poster, albeit one who makes many pronouncements with factual errors and doesn't like to be corrected. All I've ever done is correct your factual errors (for the benefit of other readers) like I would anybody else's, usually politely. All you've ever done in return is get defensive and try to be insulting.

If there's a war going on, I'm not in it - it's between you and your own fragile ego. You don't need a truce with me; you need to stop making so many wrong pronouncements and then being so defensive when corrected.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Jim, to me you're just another poster, albeit one who makes many pronouncements with factual errors and doesn't like to be corrected. All I've ever done is correct your factual errors (for the benefit of other readers) like I would anybody else's, usually politely. All you've ever done in return is get defensive and try to be insulting.

If there's a war going on, I'm not in it - it's between you and your own fragile ego. You don't need a truce with me; you need to stop making so many wrong pronouncements and then being so defensive when corrected.

pj
chgo
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OUCH! Rack em!
Joey Rome is Burning
 
PoolBum said:
Predator shafts do have a different feel than a regular shaft. I think what happens a lot of times is a player gets used to the feel of one type of shaft, and associates that with feedback, and then when he tries a shaft that has a different feel it naturally feels awkward because he is unaccustomed to it.

I adapted to the lower-deflection characteristics of a Predator shaft immediately, and for me at least the benefits of a low-deflection shaft are invaluable. I still preferred the hit of a regular shaft, though, and the Predator shaft felt awkward to me. But now that I've used a Predator for a few years, the Predator hit feels normal, and a regular shaft feels awkward.
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Your experience exactly duplicates mine.
 
IA8baller said:
I imagine with just the right wood in a shaft and proper tapering/etc you could get most if not all the characteristics of an engineered (pie spliced/whatever) shaft. It might be like trying to find a needle in a haystack though. I think that's why a lot of guys like the engineered LD shafts.

You should be able to count on it's characteristics of lower deflection on a more consistent basis. (?)

Thoughts?
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I think you're exactly correct. Odd are that the manufactured shafts are built to very close tolerances and behave relatively similarly, one shaft to the next. But wood being wood is unique from one tree to the next...and possibly one part of a given tree to another part.

In addition, it's not all that simple to precisely test a shaft for deflection and even a 1/4 inch difference over, say, a 4 ft. distance is a huge variable from a ball pocketing point of view.

Regards,
Jim
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Jim, to me you're just another poster, albeit one who makes many pronouncements with factual errors and doesn't like to be corrected. All I've ever done is correct your factual errors (for the benefit of other readers) like I would anybody else's, usually politely. All you've ever done in return is get defensive and try to be insulting.

If there's a war going on, I'm not in it - it's between you and your own fragile ego. You don't need a truce with me; you need to stop making so many wrong pronouncements and then being so defensive when corrected.

pj
chgo
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The above post is exempt, so I'll just say that I respect your right to your opinion.

Regards,
Jim
 
All this talk about how this type shaft or this type joint or cue make ones game improve makes me wonder how some players can shoot with anything.

If seen shooters take a house cue and not have a hiccup. Start shooting and keep running. They can take someones cue they never played with and just shoot away from the get go.

I know for me, to get any kind of squirt or shaft defelction, I have to stroke really hard. Harder then necessary. I can get varying degrees of spin just based on how fast I stroke, how loose my grip is and how loose wrist is. I play with a standard hard maple shaft.

I've been in dead stroke and not in dead stroke......the type shaft had nothing to do with that.

Guess I'm really wondering how much of the improvement is based on the mental part and not on what equipment is used.
 
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duckie said:
Guess I'm really wondering how much of the improvement is based on the mental part and not on what equipment is used.
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I don't think anyone can argue that the mental part is more important than most things. I'm convinced that there are some benefits, even if it's minor, to the LD shafts and maybe that's enough to help me mentally as well.
 
av84fun said:
Wow. Not much thicker than a pencil!! (-:

Glad to hear you're playing so well with it!!

Regards,
Jim
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Playing great with it. BTW, I use a glove; if not, it would be quite difficult for me to play well with it.

Flex
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How does more power show itself?

pj
chgo
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The power shows itself like this: I set up a shot with, let's say, the OB-1 shaft, on a specific butt. I mark the positions of the cue ball and the object ball so I can set up the exact same shot again. I'll also have a specific place where I want the cue ball to go. I'll get the speed down for the shot with the OB-1 shaft. When I switch to the 11mm shaft, and shoot the same shot, with the same apparent strength of stroke, english, etc., the cue ball will overrun the position I had planned for. How much will it overrun? Oftentimes by enough to blow shape. This problem is particularly noticed when shooting power shots, force follow shots, power draws and so on. To get the same results with the OB-1, for instance, as with the 11mm, I'll have to put more energy or stroke or whatever you want to call it, into the shot. Having to put that extra power, or stroke, or whatever, will frequently lead me to miss potting the ball because of squirt, or faulty correction for squirt, or a bad stroke. There could be several reasons for missing the shot. In any case, in this kind of circumstance, the 11mm has been found to be more powerful and more accurate. At least, that's been my experience....

Flex
 
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Flex said:
Playing great with it. BTW, I use a glove; if not, it would be quite difficult for me to play well with it.

Flex
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I use a glove too...for a very similar reason that I prefer LD shafts....to reduce variables as much as possible.

As you know, with a glove, the cue slides exactly the same regardless of temperature/humidity variables...at least I can't tell any difference.

But I SURE could without the glove. And according to Jack Koehler, talc residue can SIGNIFICANTLY increase throw so IMHO, talc should be BANNED from play.

Regards,
Jim
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Where do I use the word "vast" or say I've tested "each subject"?

I have described the way I test different cues for their ability to produce spin. I'm sure you can find it here if you look around.

pj
chgo
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Taking instruction from your methods of "discussion"...In other words...you have no such data.

See...I DO learn from you!

(-:
 
Me:
How does more power show itself?

Flex:
To get the same results with the OB-1, for instance, as with the 11mm, I'll have to put more energy or stroke or whatever you want to call it, into the shot.

...the 11mm has been found to be more powerful and more accurate.
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I'll bet at least some of the power increase you're experiencing comes from hitting the cue ball more accurately. I know that when I'm hitting precisely it seems like I need much less power, and my small tip helps me to do that.

pj
chgo
 
enzo said:
most of the desired effects of a predator come from it's ferrule. the actual shaft is important too of course, but the weight (or lack thereof) is most critical the closer you get to the end of the shaft.... at least when considering deflection. if you put a conventional ferrule on a 314 you may as well go to a nicely made normal shaft in my opinion. but if it plays good for you, go for it is what i always say.
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I understand what you are saying, but I disagree completely...
If you have not had much experience using a 314 that has had the ferrule changed out by someone who knows what they are doing, than I can see why you wouldn't understand...

Dennis Searing does as good of a job as anyone I have seen... Also the new ferrule should be the same length as the old Predator ferrule... Try this out and then tell me what you think...
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'll bet at least some of the power increase you're experiencing comes from hitting the cue ball more accurately. I know that when I'm hitting precisely it seems like I need much less power, and my small tip helps me to do that.

pj
chgo
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While that is possibly true, about the power, nevertheless I have another shaft that is a 12 mm one, also a Schmelke, and the power difference between it and the OB-1, and Predator and Meucci shafts is very similar to the 11 mm shaft. It may also be that the shaft wood that Schmelke uses is very good wood and just plain superior wood. That is also a possibility. Perhaps other regular maple shafts are less powerful. I really can't say in that regard. But I assure you that the power of the solid maple shafts that I have from 3 Schmelke sneaky petes is much greater than the OB-1 and Preds etc. And one of the Schmelke shafts was a 13 mm... just as powerful as the other 11mm and 12 mm shafts. I don't think it's about tip placement.

All I can really tell you is if I accustom myself to the OB1 and switch to the 11mm or 12 mm shafts that I need to make a conscious adjustment in stroke speed to not overrun position. If I accustom myself to the 11m or 12 mm and then switch to the OB1 then I'll need to put more energy into the stroke. All the shafts have Elkmaster tips.

Flex
 
Your analogy doesn't relate to pool. In car racing, the feel you describe is a continuous thing and signals what is right and wrong about the car's set up.

In pool, the "feel" occurs after the shot and my point was that no matter how it feels, the shot is over...which is untrue with car racing.

In addition, and for more importantly, there IS "feel" using a LD shaft...it is just DIFFERENT feel...not devoid of feel and you can learn just as much from the feel of a LD shaft as any other IMHO.

But I say again, that if a player simply doesn't like the feel of an LD shaft, then he/she should absolutely not use one.

Regards,
Jim
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Well let's just a say we are wired differently, I most certainly learn from the feel in my right hand of the contact between tip and cueball. I know how I hit the ball before the reaction. A little off centre or a little low, I can feel that and make adjustments. Often with the pred I was not sure till I saw the result.

This past few days with the Gilbert has been exciting, I am hitting the ball really well and the feel, oooh did I mention the feel. I'm back baby! :)
 
Slasher said:
Well let's just a say we are wired differently, I most certainly learn from the feel in my right hand of the contact between tip and cueball. I know how I hit the ball before the reaction. A little off centre or a little low, I can feel that and make adjustments. Often with the pred I was not sure till I saw the result.

This past few days with the Gilbert has been exciting, I am hitting the ball really well and the feel, oooh did I mention the feel. I'm back baby! :)
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Fair enough Slasher. We certainly have different experiences...and that's cool. Maybe there is a difference in the sensitivity of our hands. But as you know, there are A LOT of top pros and some of the greatest of the modern era that use LD shafts and I am sure that they feel what they need to feel.

Allison plays with a stock CueTec and has won more tournaments than all other WPBA pros combinded so for sure, she feels what she needs to feel.

Respectfully,
Jim
 
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