about cues: power, squirt, swerve, throw

ctran

ctran

You watch me.
Silver Member
Hi,

I recently tried a lot of cues from great cuemakers, Searing, Tascarella, SW, Tim Scruggs, Sugartree, Wes Hunter. I tried them with some of the best pro players in Vietnam. and I learned something new.

I have 2 sugartrees that hit awesome, playability is very very good. Previously I thought they would be top player's choice. I put them up against some very good cues mentioned above for some top pros to try.

They said my sugartrees play very nice, powerful and good feedback, but they have more swerve to them than other cues, which results in lower overall deflection, and they put a greater throwing effect to the object ball. but they'd rather avoid.

I know when shooting with english, the cue ball tends to squirt to the opposite, then swerve back, and then throw the object ball to the opposite side.

The pros said they want a cue that make the cue ball squirt and go in a straight line, the straighter the better, that compensating for squirt only is easier than for both squirt and swerve.

They want stronger stiffer cue that when they strike the ball with normal stroke, it is too powerful that the cue ball does not swerve back even for the travelling length of the table.

the Searing, Tascarella, and SW are not mine, but I have a Wes Hunter that hits stiffer than sugartrees, and also tends not to swerve the cue ball back.

I now come to thinking that there are cues for top players, and there are cues for amateur players, I play great with my sugartrees but am struggling to get used to the Wes Hunter with little swerve, thus more deflection.

what do you think about this? do you prefer a cue with more or less swerve?

thanks for your input.
Cuong.
 
ctran said:
Hi,

I recently tried a lot of cues from great cuemakers, Searing, Tascarella, SW, Tim Scruggs, Sugartree, Wes Hunter. I tried them with some of the best pro players in Vietnam. and I learned something new.

I have 2 sugartrees that hit awesome, playability is very very good. Previously I thought they would be top player's choice. I put them up against some very good cues mentioned above for some top pros to try.

They said my sugartrees play very nice, powerful and good feedback, but they have more swerve to them than other cues, which results in lower overall deflection, and they put a greater throwing effect to the object ball. but they'd rather avoid.

I know when shooting with english, the cue ball tends to squirt to the opposite, then swerve back, and then throw the object ball to the opposite side.

The pros said they want a cue that make the cue ball squirt and go in a straight line, the straighter the better, that compensating for squirt only is easier than for both squirt and swerve.

They want stronger stiffer cue that when they strike the ball with normal stroke, it is too powerful that the cue ball does not swerve back even for the travelling length of the table.

the Searing, Tascarella, and SW are not mine, but I have a Wes Hunter that hits stiffer than sugartrees, and also tends not to swerve the cue ball back.

I now come to thinking that there are cues for top players, and there are cues for amateur players, I play great with my sugartrees but am struggling to get used to the Wes Hunter with little swerve, thus more deflection.

what do you think about this? do you prefer a cue with more or less swerve?

thanks for your input.
Cuong.
Click to expand...

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Swerve is not affected by the cue in the least. Tip offset and elevation are the factors involved in swerve. Also, the speed of the shot will determine how much the swerve can take effect before the cue ball reaches the object ball. The amount of cue ball squirt, on the other hand, will be highly variable depending on the cue.

This explanation you gave doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Hopefully the science guys will chime in here.

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
I think there is a misunderstanding here. Swerve is not affected by the cue in the least. Tip offset and elevation are the factors involved in swerve. Also, the speed of the shot will determine how much the swerve can take effect before the cue ball reaches the object ball. The amount of cue ball squirt, on the other hand, will be highly variable depending on the cue.

This explanation you gave doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Hopefully the science guys will chime in here.

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

thanks for your input.

I may clarify that they shoot the same shots with same power, same stance and cue elevation.

I do feel the difference when I shoot with the cues myself.
 
ctran said:
thanks for your input.

I may clarify that they shoot the same shots with same power, same stance and cue elevation.

I do feel the difference when I shoot with the cues myself.
Click to expand...

They shot the same shots with *similar* power, stance, and cue elevation. You didn't mention tip offset. The mind can make minute adjustments without realizing, and without the easy detection of onlookers, or even of the shooter. Unless the laws of physics have changed, if they used the exact same power, tip offset, and elevation, then they got the same amount of swerve. The differences anyone felt were almost certainly in the deflection department, which of course interacts with the swerve to produce a net effect.

Dr. Dave will hopefully weigh in.

KMRUNOUT
 
This is a topic that's gonna get alot of different opinions and alot of bad information depending on who chimes in.

English is one of two factors in pool that is clouded with bad information and inconclusive techniques.

Reason is there are many variables such as speed, spin, judgement, equipment, etc.

Scientifically there are explanations but there is no concrete information or techniques to verify the question that you're asking.

For someone to accurately assess the cues u have, they would have to have the exact cue you're using, plus have a way to repeat the same shot with a constant/ consistent speed.

Sorry I wasn't able to answer ur question.
 
I believe if a player uses same amount of force to hit, different cues will transmit that force into difference power on the cue ball.

Yes, cue ball always swerve. I may not be clear enough here. but for same amount of power used by the player, the distance that the cueball need to swerve may differ, and my the cue ball shot from my sugartrees swerve pretty quick after the impact, while other cues swerve later, imagine if the object ball is not there, cue ball may swerve after the position of the object ball, which means until it contacts the OB, it does not swerve.
 
IamCalvin06 said:
This is a topic that's gonna get alot of different opinions and alot of bad information depending on who chimes in.

English is one of two factors in pool that is clouded with bad information and inconclusive techniques.

Reason is there are many variables such as speed, spin, judgement, equipment, etc.

Scientifically there are explanations but there is no concrete information or techniques to verify the question that you're asking.

For someone to accurately assess the cues u have, they would have to have the exact cue you're using, plus have a way to repeat the same shot with a constant/ consistent speed.

Sorry I wasn't able to answer ur question.
Click to expand...

thanks for your input, Phuong,

I agree that this is not concrete, but the feeling a player has must be true. and I believe there is no better/worse cue in this aspect, just how you get on with it.

I myself love the fact that my cues swerve more.
 
That's good that you like the swerve inherent in your cue.

Ultimately that is the most important factor when determining what cue is perfect for you.

Every player has a different type of stroke. If you watch a player like Earl I would imagine he likes some swerve bc he puts alot of spin and stroke rather delicately, even on shots with power.

On the other end of the spectrum would be a player like Mika Immonen who has a very firm or hard type stroke most of the time. I would think he would like the cue to have less swerve.

From what I've seen from the vietnamese pros such as Tuan Anh, Thanh Nam they both seem to have what I consider to be a firmer type stroke so I see why they would like more deflection and less swerve.

In my assessment of stroke I have noticed that tempo is a big factor in whether or not a player spins or pumps a ball in.

Players with slower warm up strokes tend to favor swerve and faster strokers tend to favor the straight line deflection you speak of.

Just my opinion though
 
IamCalvin06 said:
This is a topic that's gonna get alot of different opinions and alot of bad information depending on who chimes in.

English is one of two factors in pool that is clouded with bad information and inconclusive techniques.

Reason is there are many variables such as speed, spin, judgement, equipment, etc.

Scientifically there are explanations but there is no concrete information or techniques to verify the question that you're asking.

For someone to accurately assess the cues u have, they would have to have the exact cue you're using, plus have a way to repeat the same shot with a constant/ consistent speed.

Sorry I wasn't able to answer ur question.
Click to expand...
There's an az'r on here that's built his own machine to repeat the same stroke speed every time. It's pretty cool IMO! That's how I found out the mezz WD700 deflected less than the ob1 and 3.14-2. He's tested almost every LD shaft available and documented the results.
 
IamCalvin06 said:
That's good that you like the swerve inherent in your cue.

Ultimately that is the most important factor when determining what cue is perfect for you.

Every player has a different type of stroke. If you watch a player like Earl I would imagine he likes some swerve bc he puts alot of spin and stroke rather delicately, even on shots with power.

On the other end of the spectrum would be a player like Mika Immonen who has a very firm or hard type stroke most of the time. I would think he would like the cue to have less swerve.

From what I've seen from the vietnamese pros such as Tuan Anh, Thanh Nam they both seem to have what I consider to be a firmer type stroke so I see why they would like more deflection and less swerve.

In my assessment of stroke I have noticed that tempo is a big factor in whether or not a player spins or pumps a ball in.

Players with slower warm up strokes tend to favor swerve and faster strokers tend to favor the straight line deflection you speak of.

Just my opinion though
Click to expand...

that is a very informative connection you made there with the stroke. I agree to it based on my observation of them playing. even with a loose grip, most of VN pros play with a firm stroke, the cue always move in a straight line during practice strokes.

you are correct again about the tempo, that's what I get from them also, but I failed to define it out like you.

the only VN pro player now play with a different stroke and slower tempo to other is Luong Chi Dung. He recently switched to a Tascarella and he is back to his best now. He has been playing against top pros for little money matches (they say for practice lol) and has not lost for a month now.

there is a big tournament here in Hanoi, Vietnam later April and all the tops will be there :)
 
poolplayer2093 said:
There's an az'r on here that's built his own machine to repeat the same stroke speed every time. It's pretty cool IMO! That's how I found out the mezz WD700 deflected less than the ob1 and 3.14-2. He's tested almost every LD shaft available and documented the results.
Click to expand...

that's a very nice test to do, do you know if he did the same to the custom cues?
 
Man that's something that I always thought as well! I have both a mezz wd, and cpl of 314.

I always felt that my mezz deflected less but there was no proof of it other than my feeling.

Thanks for the info! Makes a huge difference knowing that my internal compass was correct lol

I'll venture to guess that I'll go back t my mezz for the next few months now lol
 
ctran said:
that is a very informative connection you made there with the stroke. I agree to it based on my observation of them playing. even with a loose grip, most of VN pros play with a firm stroke, the cue always move in a straight line during practice strokes.

you are correct again about the tempo, that's what I get from them also, but I failed to define it out like you.

the only VN pro player now play with a different stroke and slower tempo to other is Luong Chi Dung. He recently switched to a Tascarella and he is back to his best now. He has been playing against top pros for little money matches (they say for practice lol) and has not lost for a month now.

there is a big tournament here in Hanoi, Vietnam later April and all the tops will be there :)
Click to expand...

Well no disrespect to the other guys but I think Luong Chi Dung is the better player just by watching his fundamentals and approach. He looks more seasoned, as he should considering how well he did in '06.

Hope he can find the discipline to just stick with pool. I think he's the best hope for VN! I'm gonna be visiting June-July. Hope to meet some great pool players and make some new friends while I'm there. Oh yeah, and I hope I learn a thing or two from you pros!

The airlines are real strict on bringing cues so I guess I'll have to find something cheap to buy while I'm there to play with.
 
IamCalvin06 said:
Well no disrespect to the other guys but I think Luong Chi Dung is the better player just by watching his fundamentals and approach. He looks more seasoned, as he should considering how well he did in '06.

Hope he can find the discipline to just stick with pool. I think he's the best hope for VN! I'm gonna be visiting June-July. Hope to meet some great pool players and make some new friends while I'm there. Oh yeah, and I hope I learn a thing or two from you pros!

The airlines are real strict on bringing cues so I guess I'll have to find something cheap to buy while I'm there to play with.
Click to expand...

Yes, he is still regarded as the one who has the best pool mind. that reflects on his winnings recently playing 10ball 3 set matches and he never lost for a month now. and it reflected in the fact that he is the most successful VN player that ever played in an international tournament.

He is now fully concentrated in pool, he will also attend international tournaments also as he told me. He now lives in Ho Chi Minh city and has a pool hall there, you can visit him when you get there.

He is a joy to watch when practicing, like no other.
 
Last edited:
poolplayer2093 said:
There's an az'r on here that's built his own machine to repeat the same stroke speed every time. It's pretty cool IMO! That's how I found out the mezz WD700 deflected less than the ob1 and 3.14-2. He's tested almost every LD shaft available and documented the results.
Click to expand...

If he concluded that the WD700 deflected less than a 314-2, then that pretty much invalidates his setup. It really isn't even close. Cool idea, but it sounds like he must be overlooking some variables.

KMRUNOUT
 
you gave a detailed description of the pros comments on your sugartree
could you tell me what they said of each cue they tried?
thanks
 
ctran said:
Hi,

I recently tried a lot of cues from great cuemakers, Searing, Tascarella, SW, Tim Scruggs, Sugartree, Wes Hunter. I tried them with some of the best pro players in Vietnam. and I learned something new.

I have 2 sugartrees that hit awesome, playability is very very good. Previously I thought they would be top player's choice. I put them up against some very good cues mentioned above for some top pros to try.

They said my sugartrees play very nice, powerful and good feedback, but they have more swerve to them than other cues, which results in lower overall deflection, and they put a greater throwing effect to the object ball. but they'd rather avoid.

I know when shooting with english, the cue ball tends to squirt to the opposite, then swerve back, and then throw the object ball to the opposite side.

The pros said they want a cue that make the cue ball squirt and go in a straight line, the straighter the better, that compensating for squirt only is easier than for both squirt and swerve.

They want stronger stiffer cue that when they strike the ball with normal stroke, it is too powerful that the cue ball does not swerve back even for the travelling length of the table.

the Searing, Tascarella, and SW are not mine, but I have a Wes Hunter that hits stiffer than sugartrees, and also tends not to swerve the cue ball back.

I now come to thinking that there are cues for top players, and there are cues for amateur players, I play great with my sugartrees but am struggling to get used to the Wes Hunter with little swerve, thus more deflection.

what do you think about this? do you prefer a cue with more or less swerve?

thanks for your input.
Cuong.
Click to expand...
Reads like the Sugartrees had less squirt (cueball deflection) and you're just seeing the swerve a more pronounced (even if the swerves are the same).

Freddie
 
I always look at these things starting from the back end, not the front end. In other words, I start with the speed, angle and spin that the shot on the table requires, and move back to find what it takes to get there.

If you're friends are hitting exactly the same with each cue, which is virtually impossible by the way, and they are seeing different cue ball speeds, then the difference in swerve is irrelevant. The reason is that changing cues would require them to hit the same shot with different speeds because it's the shot on the table that dictates what must be accomplished to execute it.

When it comes to swerve, there are a few simple facts involved.
Swerve is caused when the ball traveling down the cloth has side spin.
Swerve is affected by Speed, Spin, and the Friction between the ball and the cloth.
If you change the speed with all other things being equal, the swerve will change
If you change the spin with all other things being equal, the swerve will change
If you change the friction with all other things being equal, the swerve will change.
Any time you change more than one of those factors, things get real complicated real fast.

If you're player wants the spin and speed necessary to create the shot on the table, whatever it is, then all those factors come into play. If he wants a cue with less swerve for a given speed and tip offset, then he will have to hit it slower and further from center if he wants to get the same speed and spin. And, if he wants to accomplish the shot, that is what he will have to do.

I think trying to over think spin and swerve is a slippery slope.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
bbb said:
you gave a detailed description of the pros comments on your sugartree
could you tell me what they said of each cue they tried?
thanks
Click to expand...

the Searing, Tascarella and SW play awesome, but overall the players must compensate more than my Sugartrees when aiming. and I did tried them all, and I saw for myself that my Sugartrees do create more swerve to the cue ball movement.

Cornerman said:
Reads like the Sugartrees had less squirt (cueball deflection) and you're just seeing the swerve a more pronounced (even if the swerves are the same).

Freddie
Click to expand...

Sorry for my English if I made you guys misunderstand.

I believe that with side english, the cue ball will squirt to the opposite side, then swerve back to the same side that we put the english on the cueball, so to me deflection = squirt - swerve. please correct me if I am wrong.

Let's say those tried the cues said my sugartrees made the cue ball swerve back more than the Searing, Tascarella and SW, thus the movement line of the later 3 cues is straighter, resulting in easier aiming and compensation when play.
 
ctran said:
... to me deflection = squirt - swerve. please correct me if I am wrong. ...
Click to expand...

"Cue-ball deflection" and "squirt" mean the same thing.

What you defined is often called "squerve," which is the net effect of squirt and swerve. It has also been called "net cue-ball deflection."
 
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