accelerating through the ball??

Patrick Johnson said:
So the more "other ways" offered the better, right?

pj
chgo
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One other way to control the speed of the cue ball is to vary the length of the backstroke on the final stroke. Short backstroke = soft shot; long backstroke = hard shot. The length of the bridge can be changed to match the backstroke and the speed. I think the length of the follow through will tend to match the length of the backstroke.
 
GG11 said:
Yes, I can see that. I'm just trying to relay that THAT was the easiest way for me to learn how to control the speed of the cue ball. For me to focus on the length of my follow through instead of trying to control how soft or hard my muscles hit the cue helped me have more control over it's speed. It's just another way to view it.
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I see what you mean.
It's kind of like where a person focuses to cut a ball into a pocket. Some people focus on the exact contact point on the object ball... other's find a spot on the rail in the distance... and others tend to focus on the tip of their Cue.
In every case the ball goes the same direction and makes the same contact point.... but it's just another way of looking at it.


A semi-truck is stuck under a bridge.... after 4 hours of dozens of people trying to figure out how to back up the truck and get it out of the way, a 6 year old says "Why not just let the air out of the tires?"

Same thing, different way to look at it.
 
Some fuel for everyone's fire

I'll try to add my 2 cents to this fun discussion.

I think people try to over simplify things. If pool was as easy as see ball, hit cue ball where you want, make ball... everyone would be on TV.

I learned a lot of really strong information from Danny Harriman and Efren a few months ago regarding this topic, and I'll try not to Twilight-Zone everyone to death.

For probably more than 95% of the "players" out there... hitting the exact center of the CB is not "center-ball." Even if you're at a distance and you need a little draw to create a stun shot at impact, just hitting enough low/center to cancel the friction of the cloth is probably not enough to get center-ball-effect. Unless you're born blessed in that 5%, we all have crooked strokes -- even if you think it's straight, odds are it's not.

It's not just where your tip touches the CB (which might be dead-center), it's where your tip "follows-through" on a line through the center axis of the CB. For instance, for me... center ball is about 1/8 tip right of center, as that's the point that enables my stroke-path to cross the center axis of the CB. Efren has a drill to identify this to help a shooter make adjustments... which is how I found my "true" point. I wish I knew how to use the Wei table, I'd post it.

Danny made a similar post on this a few months ago and everyone thought it was so alien it couldn't be true. How can hitting the center of a CB NOT be true center-ball in most cases?

Therefore, in conclusion: striking the CB at the center to a target does NOT mean you're hitting the exact intended point for 95% of us (many of the people on TV are in that 95% as well... crooked strokes).

Ponder that one in bed for a few nights in a row. ;)
 
GG11 said:
I guess my only fear in vocalizing that follow through is irrelevant is that for the amateurs (like myself,) you're more likely to instill a belief that "poking" or hitting whitey is just as efficient and productive as a smooth consistent follow through stroke. It's confusing. I think it's best to say that the length of your follow through dictates the speed at which you hit the cue ball. Course that's just my opinion. :D
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Well, I'm more adapt to my personal belief.

Acceleration/deceleration = cue speed.

Even with the same follow through lengths but with different cue speeds can produce different spins, or different shots. Let's say we make two simple test shots, both just hit one tip below center, and both the same follow through lengths (6 inches anyhow). I believe the one with the higher acceleration = draw shot, and the one with the lower acceleration = stop shot. So much for that 1/1000 second contact..

Of course this is also just my opinion..
 
I have a question about the follow through. If your follow through affects the speed that the cue ball leaves, (and I believe this on level shots), what about a "jump" shot whereas you are hitting firm to get over a ball, yet maybe applying english to the ball to draw it backwards.

You cannot be following through 3 to 4 inches! Doesn't this kind of reflect what Patrick was saying on the follow through doesn't have anything to do with the shot after contact? Kind of a robotic shot. Your speed is there for the shot and the shot only. Thoughts please.

I may be way off base here, but, I am seeing points to both sides of the equation.
 
I can put the same spin or even more deaccelerating than accelerating. But not at the same speed.
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But you can do both at the same speed. A car that was going 90 can decelerate to 80 and one that was going 70 can accelerate to 80, and they can both be doing 80 when they hit something. If the same stick hits the same cue ball at the same speed, but it accelerated to the speed one time and decelerated to it another time, the cue ball won't be able to tell the difference.

I believe the amount of spin is relative to how far out on the cueball you hit, and the speed of the stroke.
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I'm with you on that.

pj
chgo
 
klockdoc said:
I have a question about the follow through. If your follow through affects the speed that the cue ball leaves, (and I believe this on level shots), what about a "jump" shot whereas you are hitting firm to get over a ball, yet maybe applying english to the ball to draw it backwards.

You cannot be following through 3 to 4 inches! Doesn't this kind of reflect what Patrick was saying on the follow through doesn't have anything to do with the shot after contact? Kind of a robotic shot. Your speed is there for the shot and the shot only. Thoughts please.

I may be way off base here, but, I am seeing points to both sides of the equation.
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That's positive. The entire follow through (1/1000 second contact) only affects the shot during contact. After contact, there's no more effect on the shot.

Physics again, jump shots are different kind of shots. It's like clenching a ball in your hand and squeeze it out..ever noticed the cue speed in jump shots? It already supplemented all the follow through effects for a draw.

Just my opinion again..
 
Maybe I'm confused by this:

Accelerating or deaccelerating doesn't make a difference. It does affect the amount of spin applied.
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Did you mean to say it doesn't affect the amount of spin?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
No need to be sorry. Disagreements don't have to be disagreeable.



Everything the stick does after the 1/4 inch (or less) that the tip is in contact with the cue ball is irrelevant to the cue ball - the rest of that 1, 2 or 3 inches of followthrough does nothing to the cue ball, so it can have no effect on cue ball action.

Followthrough does indirectly affect how far the ball will travel, because if you're not going to follow through you have to slow your stroke (or kick) down in order to stop it so quickly after impact.

pj
chgo
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Again,

Follow through is the "result of a good stroke." Agreed the follow through in and of itself has no effect but without a follow through, us humans have no effect on a CB with the cue.
 
...if you are trying to hit it at 10mph and you are deaccelerating, you will hit it at LESS than 10mph.
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Then if you're trying to hit at 10mph and you're accelerating, you'll hit it at MORE than 10mph, right?

I think lots of shots get hit with accelerating and decelerating strokes and players simply learn to calibrate their speed for them like we all do. I also suspect there's nothing inherently good or bad about either - in fact, I bet the transition between the two, when the cue is nearly coasting and the speed is nearly constant, is probably better than both of them.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think lots of shots get hit with accelerating and decelerating strokes and players simply learn to calibrate their speed for them like we all do.
pj
chgo
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Are you saying that your speed changes in your stroke when you are hitting the ball? When I stroke the ball , it is always continuous, fluid movement. Not an acceleration or deceleration of the shot process.

And, why would anyone want to do this?
 
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klockdoc said:
Are you saying that your speed changes in your stroke when you are hitting the ball? When I stroke the ball , it is always continuous, fluid movement. Not an acceleration or deceleration of the shot process.

And, why would anyone want to do this?
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When you start your stroke movement, the cue goes to 0 mph.
10 mph is a pretty hard stroke, more than average. So YOU NEED to be accelerating before impact. As you and Pat said, the ideal is to accelerate to the speed we need and keep it consistent until the tip lefts the cue ball.
 
Well yes, but...

If you want to hit at 3 mph decelerating, then you probably want to be going at 4 mph a few inches before contact. And if you want to hit at 3 mph accelerating, you probably want to be going at 2 mph a few inches before contact. What people should learn is that 3 mph accelerating and 3 mph decelerating give, for all practical purposes, the same result. This isn't just right technically. It's just plain right. If people have a funny perception of that it means to achieve 3mph decelerating, then we should work on fixing that perception rather than enabling it, imo.

Neil said:
O.K. Pat, I'll clarify that for you. Since I know you want to disagree with me technicaly. And technicaly, you are somewhat right. I can put the same spin or even more deaccelerating than accelerating. But not at the same speed. I believe the amount of spin is relative to how far out on the cueball you hit, and the speed of the stroke.

Now with that in mind- if I am trying to obtain a certain speed for my stroke, (nobody thinks this way, but is necessary for the example) say, 3mph. I mentally calculate what I need to do to get a good stroke with that 3 mph speed. Now, If I don't shoot through the cueball, I am deaccelerating when I hit it. That means I am now about 2mph. Less speed=less spin applied.

Now, if I always deaccelerate through my stroke, it doesn't matter. Because my brain has programmed that in. Now to get the 3mph, I just hit for 4mph. See what I'm getting at??
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Are you saying that your speed changes in your stroke when you are hitting the ball? When I stroke the ball , it is always continuous, fluid movement. Not an acceleration or deceleration of the shot process.

And, why would anyone want to do this?
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Because if you don't accelerate the stick doesn't move.

pj
chgo
 
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