Addressing The Cue Ball Low For Most Strokes

[Patrick Johnson]

You can stay closer to center QB while using English

No, you can't. It might seem so, but if you measure "center" from the direction of the tip at contact it's the same offset as a straight stroke from that direction would be, and gets the same results.

...which is huge.

It would be huge if it was true - but it isn't, so it isn't.

What experimentation are u talking about?

Dr. Dave did one just recently. I think it's posted on his website, and there's a thread about it somewhere around here.

pj
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

Well the technique is not nonsense.

"Nonsense", was not my choice of words. I know quite a few players use the technique. Over the years, I've seen many players putting a good stroke on the cue ball with it.

What I meant was it's gotten a bad rap on these forums by non users and purists. I say, to each his own. I don't knock what other people do. I worry about what I'm doing and try to do it better.

Best,
Mike

 

[cookie man]

No, you can't. It might seem so, but if you measure "center" from the direction of the tip at contact it's the same offset as a straight stroke from that direction would be, and gets the same results.


It would be huge if it was true - but it isn't, so it isn't.


Dr. Dave did one just recently. I think it's posted on his website, and there's a thread about it somewhere around here.

pj
chgo

I highly disagree PJ.
I've seen Dr Dave's experiment but it's not a good one and i put little faith in it as it was done from a pre biased opinion.
Why do the good players employ this technique then?

 

[cookie man]

"Nonsense", was not my choice of words. I know quite a few players use the technique. Over the years, I've seen many players putting a good stroke on the cue ball with it.

What I meant was it's gotten a bad rap on these forums by non users and purists. I say, to each his own. I don't knock what other people do. I worry about what I'm doing and try to do it better.

Best,
Mike

Yea sorry, I knew what you were saying just trying to be clear that it is a good technique and not nonsense.

 

[peppersauce]

.................

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I highly disagree PJ.
I've seen Dr Dave's experiment but it's not a good one and i put little faith in it as it was done from a pre biased opinion.

What did he do or not do that made it biased?

Have you seen any tests at all that support your idea?

Why do the good players employ this technique then?

You mean why do some good players do it. Because they don't know any better.

pj
chgo

 

[Bigb'scues]

No, you can't. It might seem so, but if you measure "center" from the direction of the tip at contact it's the same offset as a straight stroke from that direction would be, and gets the same results.


It would be huge if it was true - but it isn't, so it isn't.


Dr. Dave did one just recently. I think it's posted on his website, and there's a thread about it somewhere around here.

pj
chgo

I highly admire Dr Dave work and contribution to the game. The only variable of Dave's
Experiments I think should be changed is who is shooting these shots. From what I can see he himself dosnt have a very impressive stroke. Nor anyone else I have seen I'm his experiments. I order to get the right data you need to eliminate the variable of human error by getting exceptionally consistent humans to soot the shots.....you know....like a pro.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... you need to eliminate the variable of human error by getting exceptionally consistent humans to soot the shots.....you know....like a pro.

I challenge anybody, including pros, to produce CB action with a swipe stroke that can't be reproduced with a straight one.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

Re: Swiping

Why do the good players employ this technique then?

Players can learn to judge tip offset via swiping better than they can judge where to actually point to the CB to get the effect they are familiar with. Hence, it becomes a preferred habit.

Also, aligning closer to CCB may aid alignment, rather that starting with the tip at a large offset.

Not saying these are ideal, but that they play a role in how players learn to execute shots.

Colin

 

[Chrippa]

The only thing that David showed me with his experiment was that Davids interpretation of how to set up for a swipe wasn´t working. I wrote it in that thread.

I at least I have not seen any "swiper" do it that way that he did.

So to come to the conclusion that Swiping doesn´t work is completely wrong imo.

If you want to see why the use of swiping occurs I suggest that whoever wants to know - try it on the table.

Who knows, maybe they come to a conclusion that it´s easier to stay close to centre and still get the same effect.
Or they maybe also will see that "crossing lines" will give them more spin with less effort.
And they maybe also will see that it´s just were the tip hits the cueball that matters but also were the cue is coming from, which angle. And you can still cue it straight true for that.
Colin also have a point in his previous post.

You can see so much things if you "look" for them doing different things/ways than what you normally do - not only playing pool.

A huge lot of information can be seen if you are trying to do it.
Using TOI is also one of does.

Be the book instead of just reading a bunch, makes you be more in contact with yourself and let you do the things the way you can do them.

Also, I´m not good at "swiping the ball in motion", not my normal way of play.
I do however preset the "swipe"/crossing lines" when using BHE etc. Side spin, masse shots - big and small, stop, draw shots when I´m close to the rail or when I need to angle up the cue for a reason.

I do train on it a bit right now, very easy to do for me when hitting down or putting sidespin, not so easy to put forward spin - yet :wink:.

Thanks SS for your tips, highly appreciated.

Thanks

Christian

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Players can learn to judge tip offset via swiping better than they can judge where to actually point to the CB to get the effect they are familiar with. Hence, it becomes a preferred habit.

To be clear, this doesn't mean it's inherently easier to judge a swipe stroke, just that a player might have more experience with it. I'd argue it's inherently easier to be accurate with a straight stroke.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

...It might seem so, but if you measure "center" from the direction of the tip at contact it's the same offset as a straight stroke from that direction would be, and gets the same results....

pj
chgo

Patrick,

Did you not, with that statement, just change the center line of the CB?

It's the travel of the tip relative to the intended line (that diameter of the ball) & the different direction of the applied momentum that make the difference.

There are basically two methods of putting top spin on a tennis ground stroke. One swings more level to the ground & turns down the racket head that results in a high forward velocity of the ball with some spin. The other method is to swing the racket more from low to high with the racket also turning down. This results with the ball traveling on a different direction vector with less 'forward' velocity but with more spin.

I know that the analogy is not exact due to the turning down of the racket head but it is analogous as to the change of the direction & the more oblique hit on the ball with a higher tip speed in the side ways direction. The net affect of the vectors is different relative to the same line toward the contact point on the OB. It is utilizing the squirt in a similar manner to BHE. BUT...here is the difference. The tip is NOT traveling on a straight line through the ball but instead is arching as it is contact with the cue ball. Thus the result is different due to the changing vector of the force.

SmoothStroke often mentions 'clearing the cue'. There lies the difference & why Dr. Dave's experiment IMO was not conclusive at all. The stroke was not executed properly. It did not test the extreme as the shots had minimal if any true real swiping motion during contact.

IMO that experiment compared a pre stroke pivot for BHE vs. a during the stroke pivot for BHE. Those during the stroke pivots were made prior to contact & hence yielded minimal if any true real swiping on the CB. That said there was one with a significant difference, so that one may have had the swiping motion on the ball during contact or the tip may have just made contact farther from center but then there should have been a different line of squirt. That one was thrown out as was the entire initial experiment & then Dr. Dave shot the shots instead of the gentleman that supposedly could execute the swipe stroke better.

Way too often statements are made as fact when the truth of the matter is that the conclusions are based on faulty tests & experiments. Perhaps statements like 'such & such would seem to indicate X' would be more appropriate.

Best 2 You & ALL,
Rick

 

[Chrippa]

To be clear, this doesn't mean it's inherently easier to judge a swipe stroke, just that a player might have more experience with it. I'd argue it's inherently easier to be accurate with a straight stroke.

pj
chgo

It that short moment of contact the cb doesn't know if it´s straight or crooked. Is it even possible to hit with the tip crooked since the tip leaves the cb so fast....?

Or is it possible that you can make the tip to have a longer contact?

When a leather tip is compressed doesn't that make a longer contact than a phenolic tip has at impact?

Is it possible that a very, very small amount of increased contact makes a different impact on the cb?

Is it possible that a swoop at impact is in a straight line during the impact, up or down, sideways etc?

Is it possible that a pro knows what he is doing but can´t explain why to does who can´t for some reason not see it the way he/she does?

Is it possible that a motion is based on several thoughts that are combined in a fluid motion - like walking but that we started out with one and the increased it and after a while we don´t remember what the beginning was but without the beginning the end result is not there?
So instead of thinking of the beginning why not see the outcome we want and try to do it and then all of a sudden the beginning is found again.

What is the beginning? A picture,a thought, a feeling........

If you want to create something you need to see it first, you insert that, you do that and the result is what you put in and did. 1+1=3.

You can with a bit of training stand on the head and play pool.....


Christian

 

[cookie man]

What did he do or not do that made it biased?

Have you seen any tests at all that support your idea?


You mean why do some good players do it. Because they don't know any better.

pj
chgo

He had his mind made up as to what he thought would happen and did his tests to produce those results.

Haven't seen tests per se but results from good players to support my opinion.

They might "not know better" but they know how to produce the best results.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if you measure "center" from the direction of the tip at contact it's the same offset as a straight stroke from that direction would be, and gets the same results....

pj
chgo

ENGLISH:
Did you not, with that statement, just change the center line of the CB?

A swoop stroke changes the center line, just as a straight stroke at an angle changes the center line. For purposes of measuring the tip offset from center, the center line is parallel with the tip's direction of moment at contact. The length of the "lever arm" that determines the amount of spin is the distance between these parallel lines.*

pj
chgo

*To be more accurate, the center line is parallel with the direction the CB travels, which is angled from the tip's line of motion by the amount of squirt. But this difference will be the same for both strokes.

 

[SmoothStroke]

All kidding aside, I agree 100% MikJary. When the earth was flat players stood upright, very erect, they wore suits. Today players are practically lying on the table, would Willie say that is wrong?

If you hit a tennis ball with an open stance you were a freak, today an open stance is routine.A tennis academy will teach a traditional technique. Tell Bjorn Borg he was doing it all wrong, he may say look at the results and how many of today's players are open stance strikers. Borg may have been the original open stance player. He was also the first male pro to win 11 Grand Slam Singles titles; his career match win rate is second best of the Open Era. Forty years ago and counting life changed on the tennis court, Mary Outerbridge is turning in her grave.

At one time I played a more traditional type of game. Today I play bottom ball up, rarely above center and stay inside the cue ball as much as possible, I have no problem with extreme spin, I encourage the use of spin. I would not change the way I strike the cue ball for anything. I learned many different techniques, studied and practiced them, this is the best for me; I highly recommend others to give it a look. The bottom line is I am most comfortable and confident aiming low, climbing ladders, playing inside. I do what is good for me, do what's good for you, but don't ever be close minded to think you know everything and are afraid to try different techniques.

I teach different techniques to players, not just mine, they learn it all. I show them everything there is and let them decide what is best for them, what's most comfortable, open stance, closed stance, bridges, different aiming systems, head placement,etc etc you name it they learn it.

I want them to learn it all, choose what is good for them, and make it their own. My goal is to bring the natural out through choices and technique. If they lean towards a certain aiming system or other technique that is where we go, where they feel most comfortable for them, and we build on it. Of course I am always right.

I don't have one player that looks lesson taught, they teach themselves, I guide and train them. We don't do it from a book that says this is the way it is. Each one is basically a custom job, tailored to the individual , their natural and feel. Of course I force all the other good stuff upon them.

The earth use to be flat, now it's round, or is it oval, you should go see for yourself.

You don't know what you don't know until you know it. It's about feel, Bring your straight stroke and extended follow through, and feel it. You will be the better for it.

Sincerely: SS

 

[ENGLISH!]

A swoop stroke changes the center line, just as a straight stroke at an angle changes the center line. For purposes of measuring the tip offset from center, the center line is parallel with the tip's direction of moment at contact. The length of the "lever arm" that determines the amount of spin is the distance between these parallel lines.*

pj
chgo

*To be more accurate, the center line is parallel with the direction the CB travels, which is angled from the tip's line of motion by the amount of squirt. But this difference will be the same for both strokes.

Well I doubt 10 % of the readers here would agree with you.

By that you can have no real discussion of certain topics because the center line is unknown until a specific stroke is made. Also by that 'definition' a stroke is never off line as it's the stroke that 'defines' the center line.

Einstein's theory of relativity makes one persons statement false when viewed by another from a relatively different position.

Statistics can be made to say what ever the one interpreting them wants them to say.

Best 2 you & ALL,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

All kidding aside, I agree 100% MikJary. When the earth was flat players stood upright, very erect, they wore suits. Today players are practically lying on the table, would Willie say that is wrong?

If you hit a tennis ball with an open stance you were a freak, today an open stance is routine.A tennis academy will teach a traditional technique. Tell Bjorn Borg he was doing it all wrong, he may say look at the results and how many of today's players are open stance strikers. Borg may have been the original open stance player. He was also the first male pro to win 11 Grand Slam Singles titles; his career match win rate is second best of the Open Era. Forty years ago and counting life changed on the tennis court, Mary Outerbridge is turning in her grave.

At one time I played a more traditional type of game. Today I play bottom ball up, rarely above center and stay inside the cue ball as much as possible, I have no problem with extreme spin, I encourage the use of spin. I would not change the way I strike the cue ball for anything. I learned many different techniques, studied and practiced them, this is the best for me; I highly recommend others to give it a look. The bottom line is I am most comfortable and confident aiming low, climbing ladders, playing inside. I do what is good for me, do what's good for you, but don't ever be close minded to think you know everything and are afraid to try different techniques.

I teach different techniques to players, not just mine, they learn it all. I show them everything there is and let them decide what is best for them, what's most comfortable, open stance, closed stance, bridges, different aiming systems, head placement,etc etc you name it they learn it.

I want them to learn it all, choose what is good for them, and make it their own. My goal is to bring the natural out through choices and technique. If they lean towards a certain aiming system or other technique that is where we go, where they feel most comfortable for them, and we build on it. Of course I am always right.

I don't have one player that looks lesson taught, they teach themselves, I guide and train them. We don't do it from a book that says this is the way it is. Each one is basically a custom job, tailored to the individual , their natural and feel. Of course I force all the other good stuff upon them.

The earth use to be flat, now it's round, or is it oval, you should go see for yourself.

You don't know what you don't know until you know it. It's about feel, Bring your straight stroke and extended follow through, and feel it. You will be the better for it.

Sincerely: SS

:thumbup2: :thumbup2: :thumbup2:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

By that you can have no real discussion of certain topics because the center line is unknown until a specific stroke is made.

They may be lost on you, but real discussions aren't limited by it at all.

Also by that 'definition' a stroke is never off line as it's the stroke that 'defines' the center line.

You've confused yourself. As I said, the direction of the tip's movement at contact defines the center line for purposes of comparing tip offsets.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

SmoothStroke:
The earth use to be flat, now it's round, or is it oval, you should go see for yourself.

You can't always trust your senses. Looking at the Earth is what made us think it was flat for so long. Science showed us the truth our eyes couldn't see.

The same principle often applies to pool.

pj
chgo