Addressing The Cue Ball Low For Most Strokes

Mikjary said:
Rick,

I use a hip swivel like in the 90/90 system. I don't like the idea of moving my arm to pivot, or even parallel to the shot line. I turn my upper body in a unit. The cue stays in place maintaining the correct head position.

It's easy to get off line doing this. Your head and eyes have to be in the correct position ala Perfect Aim. You have to allow both eyes to get into the shot picture, even if you don't realize you're doing it. That's why players can't get stick aiming to work or pivoting in 90/90.

If you're dominant eye is in the picture too much or not enough, you will lose you're alignment on the pivot. Here's a video of Ron Vitello using a hip pivot/swivel. Notice how his upper body stays connected to the shot line as he turns into the shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_dJHZiN01A

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike.

Yeah that's sort of what I do. The whole mechanism moves. I just never put the words 'hip pivot' to it. I just never did really trust the pivot length thing for BHE. It was not an alignment issue. I would just rather do it from the start & with the cue 'parallel' like E said & trust my 'feel' judgement. I've been doing it since I'm 13.

I think CJ has a chapter or part of a chapter on pivoting from the ground up in his TIPS video.

I think what we're talking about here could be a problem for many with CTE. Where is their 'vision center' as it relates to the 1/2 tip offset & the pivot to center. There's more than that but that could be a problem for some if not many. I saw a youtube video where Stan was talking about a distortion & the cue angled across the face. It was no the most clear of explanations but I sort of got the picture & I don't think I'd like it.

Thanks Again & Best 2 Ya,
Rick
 
J Soto said:
Patrick,

If you don't mind me asking, what skill level do you claim to be? Just because you can't wrap your head around a certain technique, it doesn't mean that that it's inferior to whatever is on Dr. Dave's site.

Now don't get me wrong, Dr. Dave has some good info out there. But even he doesn't know why certain things work and why others don't. And if he truly doesn't know about a particular thing he'll downplay it and poke fun at it. (i.e. CTE and his DAM Method) He can set up all the slow motion videos until he's blue in the face. But if he plays Earl Strickland in a match, WTF do you think is going to happen.

The truth of the matter is this: THERE IS NOT A PROPER WAY TO PLAY POOL. You have to find out what works for you. But there are techniques out there that make the game easier. BUT you have to hit the cueball exactly where you intend to....if not the technique is not going to work for you.


I've played baseball at a high level. And the one thing that separated 2 players with the same height and build is hand eye coordination. And I truly believe that is what separates the amateur from the pros in this sport as well.

Some people on this forum just don't have a clue. I sit back and I'm truly amazed at how many top players don't post on here anymore because of a select few of dumbasses that think they know it all.
Click to expand...
Wow I just learned a new manic trick !!!!!!
Ask PJ his skill level and make him disappear :eek:
Just joking PJ :grin-square:
 
Thanks, Lamas, Mike and Rick for your contributions on the swipe issue:smile:.

I also learned a new one, "hip pivot":p.

Have a nice one

Christian
 
Mikjary said:
LAMas,

The difference was what I expected. The parallel offset sent the cue ball deflecting quite a bit to the side. I used a pivot and hit close to where I was aiming, compensating for the deflection. The hit was much more solid as i was able to stroke through the cue ball closer to the center of the tip.

I've been using a pivot back to center cue ball with the CP2CP system you suggested. I've been usin g a hip pivot and it creates a slight overcut. Good stuff!:thumbup:

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
I use a low defection shaft so the parallel offset didn't affect the direction of the CB angling away from the line from the center of the CB to the target. I placed the CB in the middle of the kitchen and aimed for the center diamond on the far short rail and rolling over the head spot. The shaft pressed against my bridge at impact/contact with the CB. I consistently sent the CB off the rail toward the side pocket.

For swipe, I aimed the center of the tip at the same diamond with it pointed at the base of the CB where it touched the cloth - so I knew that I was centered. during the final stroke, I raised the tip diagonally using my grip hand (BHE) until it contacted the same spot on the CB as in the example above. The bridge hand was stationary. I followed through the stroke at that same diagonal motion with a light grip on the butt allowing the tip to glance around/off the CB - almost like throwing the cue through. I consistently sent the CB off of the rail toward the diamond above the side pocket or at a greater angle than the above parallel example.

Speed is a factor and can kill the action (stun?) but I didn't have to hit/swipe the CB as hard to get the CB to travel around the rail/s the same distance.

It is surprising how much English I could get with a soft delicate swipe/wiping stroke across the surface/face of the CB.

I think that I also rotate my cue at my hip thus keeping my address and vision center fixed during the hip pivot - thanks for bringing that up.

Be well
 
ENGLISH! said:
Thanks Mike.

Yeah that's sort of what I do. The whole mechanism moves. I just never put the words 'hip pivot' to it. I just never did really trust the pivot length thing for BHE. It was not an alignment issue. I would just rather do it from the start & with the cue 'parallel' like E said & trust my 'feel' judgement. I've been doing it since I'm 13.

I think CJ has a chapter or part of a chapter on pivoting from the ground up in his TIPS video.

I think what we're talking about here could be a problem for many with CTE. Where is their 'vision center' as it relates to the 1/2 tip offset & the pivot to center. There's more than that but that could be a problem for some if not many. I saw a youtube video where Stan was talking about a distortion & the cue angled across the face. It was no the most clear of explanations but I sort of got the picture & I don't think I'd like it.

Thanks Again & Best 2 Ya,
Rick
Click to expand...

An angled cue is a great way to play, not just talking cte either, and you shouldn't have any problems doing it with a little practice time put in.
 
cookie man said:
An angled cue is a great way to play, not just talking cte either, and you shouldn't have any problems doing it with a little practice time put in.
Click to expand...

Cookie,

All I did was mention what I thought might be a problem for some as it relates to the pivot made for CTE.

Now playing with the cue angled across one's site line is a great way to play...

& not just for CTE.

Well... I think most will need more of a logical explanation to be able to understand that...

especially since almost all instruction even from non instructors is to get one's vision on the line that would be the cue line.

Can you explain why it's great to play with the cue angled across one's vision line?

Thanks in advance,
Rick
 
LAMas said:
Mike,
I use a low defection shaft so the parallel offset didn't affect the direction of the CB angling away from the line from the center of the CB to the target. I placed the CB in the middle of the kitchen and aimed for the center diamond on the far short rail and rolling over the head spot. The shaft pressed against my bridge at impact/contact with the CB. I consistently sent the CB off the rail toward the side pocket.

For swipe, I aimed the center of the tip at the same diamond with it pointed at the base of the CB where it touched the cloth - so I knew that I was centered. during the final stroke, I raised the tip diagonally using my grip hand (BHE) until it contacted the same spot on the CB as in the example above. The bridge hand was stationary. I followed through the stroke at that same diagonal motion with a light grip on the butt allowing the tip to glance around/off the CB - almost like throwing the cue through. I consistently sent the CB off of the rail toward the diamond above the side pocket or at a greater angle than the above parallel example.

Speed is a factor and can kill the action (stun?) but I didn't have to hit/swipe the CB as hard to get the CB to travel around the rail/s the same distance.

It is surprising how much English I could get with a soft delicate swipe/wiping stroke across the surface/face of the CB.

I think that I also rotate my cue at my hip thus keeping my address and vision center fixed during the hip pivot - thanks for bringing that up.

Be well
Click to expand...

Hi E,

I would think that some will find fault with your comparison saying that the ball hits the rail at a different angle due to to the different lines of CB squirt.

What you're calling swipe here is just BHE to me unless I missed something.

As I said, the key, to me, is what SwoothStroke calls the 'clearing' of the cue which is where the cue actually leaves the bridge. That allows for a much more pronounce side ways action where the tip is actually traveling on a curve as it is in contact with the cue ball.

By doing that with the tip move away to the side it also diminishes the amount of squirt relative to the line.

That is why I 'scoffed' at PJ changing the line & 'redefining' the line for the purpose of measuring the amount of offset & hence the amount of possible spin that can be put on the ball.

There seems to be only a few that understand accurately what a swipe or swoop really is. Many times all of the parameters that are in play are not taken into consideration & hence a false conclusion is reached. Trying to explain something that actually happens is not always an easy task because as I said a parameter or two is often overlooked & not taken into consideration. One has it or them in mind while another does not & hence a disagreement. Text discussion is also not the easiest of formats for such.

If I missed something in your example, please correct me & let me know what it was.

Best 2 You & Stay Well, & the Same to All,
Rick
 
J Soto said:
Patrick,

If you don't mind me asking, what skill level do you claim to be? Just because you can't wrap your head around a certain technique, it doesn't mean that that it's inferior to whatever is on Dr. Dave's site.

Now don't get me wrong, Dr. Dave has some good info out there. But even he doesn't know why certain things work and why others don't. And if he truly doesn't know about a particular thing he'll downplay it and poke fun at it. (i.e. CTE and his DAM Method) He can set up all the slow motion videos until he's blue in the face. But if he plays Earl Strickland in a match, WTF do you think is going to happen.

The truth of the matter is this: THERE IS NOT A PROPER WAY TO PLAY POOL. You have to find out what works for you. But there are techniques out there that make the game easier. BUT you have to hit the cueball exactly where you intend to....if not the technique is not going to work for you.

I've played baseball at a high level. And the one thing that separated 2 players with the same height and build is hand eye coordination. And I truly believe that is what separates the amateur from the pros in this sport as well.

Some people on this forum just don't have a clue. I sit back and I'm truly amazed at how many top players don't post on here anymore because of a select few of dumbasses that think they know it all.
Click to expand...
That is one of the best posts I have read. Well done. I don't care if you consider me one of the dumbasses or not, lol. Well done, Sir!
 
ENGLISH! said:
especially since almost all instruction even from non instructors is to get one's vision on the line that would be the cue line.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't your vision be on the aiming line not the cue line, and yes they are separate things. Cueing across the aiming line is a very good technique to use when applying english.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Hi E,

I would think that some will find fault with your comparison saying that the ball hits the rail at a different angle due to to the different lines of CB squirt.

What you're calling swipe here is just BHE to me unless I missed something.

As I said, the key, to me, is what SwoothStroke calls the 'clearing' of the cue which is where the cue actually leaves the bridge. That allows for a much more pronounce side ways action where the tip is actually traveling on a curve as it is in contact with the cue ball.

By doing that with the tip move away to the side it also diminishes the amount of squirt relative to the line.

That is why I 'scoffed' at PJ changing the line & 'redefining' the line for the purpose of measuring the amount of offset & hence the amount of possible spin that can be put on the ball.

There seems to be only a few that understand accurately what a swipe or swoop really is. Many times all of the parameters that are in play are not taken into consideration & hence a false conclusion is reached. Trying to explain something that actually happens is not always an easy task because as I said a parameter or two is often overlooked & not taken into consideration. One has it or them in mind while another does not & hence a disagreement. Text discussion is also not the easiest of formats for such.

If I missed something in your example, please correct me & let me know what it was.

Best 2 You & Stay Well, & the Same to All,
Rick
Click to expand...

I mentioned in another post that I tried swiping with a shallow open bridge with good results as well. Often the shaft moved to the side or lifted after rubbing the CB.

Any Ping Pong players here use side swiping with the paddle to get more rotation on the ball?:thumbup:
 
cookie man said:
Shouldn't your vision be on the aiming line not the cue line, and yes they are separate things. Cueing across the aiming line is a very good technique to use when applying english.
Click to expand...

I've used 'parallel' english for more than 45 years along with some BHE & FHE & even combos of both. So, I know about offset & the 'eye line' & the 'cue line' being different & I also know how to do it with a perception of the 'aim line' or the 'contact points line', etc.

I don't think Stan was talking about back or front hand english but instead was talking about a 'normal' center ball hit.

Mike's point was about making a 'hip pivot' to move the cue. Might that be similar to a 'sweep'?

I think, & please note the word think, that Stan was talking about looking at the center CB to the contact point but the cue being angled across to the ghost ball location. He never used the phrase ghost ball but I think that is what he was referring. He probably said actual shot line.

Anyway, I think that will be a hard sell, especially to a novice or beginner. Unless I misinterpreted what he was trying to say. He used the word distortion several times.
 
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LAMas said:
I mentioned in another post that I tried swiping with a shallow open bridge with good results as well. Often the shaft moved to the side or lifted after rubbing the CB.

Any Ping Pong players here use side swiping with the paddle to get more rotation on the ball?:thumbup:
Click to expand...

E,

Yeah, As I've said, to me, that's the key. If the cue stays on the bridge then any increase is rather minimal if any over the more standard methods.

I have a pretty wicked forehand side spin sliced serve that the receiver either misses the table or sets it up right to where I'm waiting for a slam.

CJ often relates certain pool aspects to other sports like tennis or golf. I think those of us that have played other sports may have an advantage in some regards when it comes to certain things that are pool.

You Stay Well,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
E,

Yeah, As I've said, to me, that's the key. If the cue stays on the bridge then any increase is rather minimal if any over the more standard methods.

I have a pretty wicked forehand side spin sliced serve that the receiver either misses the table or sets it up right to where I'm waiting for a slam.

CJ often relates certain pool aspects to other sports like tennis or golf. I think those of us that have played other sports may have an advantage in some regards when it comes to certain things that are pool.

You Stay Well,
Rick
Click to expand...

But, but, but...did you play Ping Pong?:wink::wink::wink::)
 
LAMas said:
But, but, but...did you play Ping Pong?:wink::wink::wink::)
Click to expand...

I played a little ping pong years ago, but not at a high level. I used the sponge paddles and swiped at a few balls. Some guys could really spin that ball.

Best,
Mike
 
LAMas said:
But, but, but...did you play Ping Pong?:wink::wink::wink::)
Click to expand...

Hi E,

A neighborhood friend of mine's older brother & Dad played college table tennis. So, I played them a lot when I was young.

They had the best table I'd ever seen. It was a heavy 7/8 inch solid bed.

I also have a forehand paddle side but on the backhand body side flip of the wrist top spin 'slam' that is lightening quick & works the best when the ball is low just coming off the end of the table.

Stay Well & don't drop the paddle,:wink:
Rick
 
Mikjary said:
I played a little ping pong years ago, but not at a high level. I used the sponge paddles and swiped at a few balls. Some guys could really spin that ball.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

I used a sandpaper paddle seasoned with Kamui Chalk...wiped on and not twisted.:wink:

Be well
 
Mikjary said:
LAMas,

The difference was what I expected. The parallel offset sent the cue ball deflecting quite a bit to the side. I used a pivot and hit close to where I was aiming, compensating for the deflection. The hit was much more solid as i was able to stroke through the cue ball closer to the center of the tip.

I've been using a pivot back to center cue ball with the CP2CP system you suggested. I've been usin g a hip pivot and it creates a slight overcut. Good stuff!:thumbup:

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
Since we don't take protractors to the table, we can't know what angle our aiming is solving, but we have an approximate sense of those angles. We see the angle and relate that to our solution. CP2CP is geometrically accurate with a parallel shift but it suffers from CIT and the result is a slight undercut.

The hip pivot or elbow pivot imparts a slight overcut that compensates for squirt and CIT to get us closer the geometric numeric angle for those that care. This allows one to aim CTE and actually achieve 30 degrees with center CB.

Good stuff and sorry for the protracted post.:wink:

Be well.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
I've used 'parallel' english for more than 45 years along with some BHE & FHE & even combos of both. So, I know about offset & the 'eye line' & the 'cue line' being different & I also know how to do it with a perception of the 'aim line' or the 'contact points line', etc.

I don't think Stan was talking about back or front hand english but instead was talking about a 'normal' center ball hit.

Mike's point was about making a 'hip pivot' to move the cue. Might that be similar to a 'sweep'?

I think, & please note the word think, that Stan was talking about looking at the center CB to the contact point but the cue being angled across to the ghost ball location. He never used the phrase ghost ball but I think that is what he was referring. He probably said actual shot line.

Anyway, I think that will be a hard sell, especially to a novice or beginner. Unless I misinterpreted what he was trying to say. He used the word distortion several times.
Click to expand...

I wasn't even talking about what Stan said
 
cookie man said:
I wasn't even talking about what Stan said
Click to expand...

Well, I heard about the cue being angled across one's face with a visual distortion from Stan & that's where this conversation started. Isn't it?

I asked you to explain your statement about how it can be a really good thing but you really have not.

So I guess we should just drop it.
 
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