Advise to Dr. DAVE From Ron V.
- Thread starter RonV
- Start date
Dave said perception and execution aren't the same thing. I said I meant perception when I said execution (including perception as a non-physical part of execution). I don't know why you're having such a hard time accepting that I know what I mean.
Do you think I don't know the difference between perception and physical aspects of execution like stroke? If you and Dave are using the common definition of perception, I promise you I know what it means.
pj
chgo
SpiderWebComm said:It's all in the pivot, grasshopper
Which, of course, is exactly what all the "math guys" have said all along. And without a lesson! (Go figure.)
pj
chgo
Jude Rosenstock said:
Jude,
The advantages to systems, as can be generally agreed upon by those who are sceptical of many of the claims of systems, are raised here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1534767#post1534767 and discussed in some detail in following posts from earlier in this thread.
Colin
Still at it huh guy's ?
You number crunchers are on pace to overcome the "Funny Girl pic/gif" thread.(over 2000 posts and climbing)
I had promised to send John B., and others, a long disertation on why I thought you guys were not playing with a full deck.
But a few too many SoCo's have invaded my system, and I'm afraid I might say what I REALLY think.
I hope I have made a few friends , and not too many enemies, as I tried to stumble through "your" world.
I wish you all success at finding "The Systematic Holy Grail of Pool"
My only fear is, you may do each other bodily harm before that happens.
I want to say a special few words to John B. You seem to be a successful
businessman with a very oversize ego. That ain't all that bad, but I have witnessed your braggadacio and, frankly I can't figure out where you're coming from. My guess would be some form of "insecurity" complex because you can't master the game of pool.
I am not, nor never was the best player to ever pick up a stick. But I have several bartenders and three ex-wives all dependent on my income.(not to mention my bride of 34 years.)
I am very comfortable in my retirement, and have never been what you have percieved me to be. I help out several of my old pal's from the pool world , who have not been as fortunate as me.
So don't put me down with your innuendos, and your superior attitude. I hope, for your sake, you find the "magic bullet" that makes you a world beater. We may never see eye to eye, but I will buy you a drink.
G'night all, and thank you Colin.
Dick
You number crunchers are on pace to overcome the "Funny Girl pic/gif" thread.(over 2000 posts and climbing)
I had promised to send John B., and others, a long disertation on why I thought you guys were not playing with a full deck.
But a few too many SoCo's have invaded my system, and I'm afraid I might say what I REALLY think.
I hope I have made a few friends , and not too many enemies, as I tried to stumble through "your" world.
I wish you all success at finding "The Systematic Holy Grail of Pool"
My only fear is, you may do each other bodily harm before that happens.
I want to say a special few words to John B. You seem to be a successful
businessman with a very oversize ego. That ain't all that bad, but I have witnessed your braggadacio and, frankly I can't figure out where you're coming from. My guess would be some form of "insecurity" complex because you can't master the game of pool.
I am not, nor never was the best player to ever pick up a stick. But I have several bartenders and three ex-wives all dependent on my income.(not to mention my bride of 34 years.)
I am very comfortable in my retirement, and have never been what you have percieved me to be. I help out several of my old pal's from the pool world , who have not been as fortunate as me.
So don't put me down with your innuendos, and your superior attitude. I hope, for your sake, you find the "magic bullet" that makes you a world beater. We may never see eye to eye, but I will buy you a drink.
G'night all, and thank you Colin.
Dick
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SJDinPHX said:You number crunchers are on pace to overcome the "Funny Girl pic/gif" thread.(over 2000 posts and climbing)
I had promised to send John B., and others, a long disertation on why I thought you guys were not playing with a full deck.
But a few too many SoCo's have invaded my system, and I'm afraid I might say what I REALLY think.
I hope I have made a few friends , and not too many enemies, as I tried to stumble through "your" world.
I wish you all success at finding "The Systematic Holy Grail of Pool"
My only fear is, you may do each other bodily harm before that happens.
I want to say a special few words to John B. You seem to be a successful
businessman with a very oversize ego. That ain't all that bad, but I have witnessed your braggadacio and, frankly I can't figure out where you're coming from. My guess would be some form of "insecurity" complex because you can't master the game of pool.
I am not, nor never was the best player to ever pick up a stick. But I have several bartenders and three ex-wives all dependent on my income.(not to mention my bride of 34 years.)
I am very comfortable in my retirement, and have never been what you have percieved me to be. I help out several of my old pal's from the pool world , who have not been as fortunate as me.
So don't put me down with your innuendos, and your superior attitude. I hope, for your sake, you find the "magic bullet" that makes you a world beater. We may never see eye to eye, but I will buy you a drink.
G'night all, and thank you Colin.
Dick
I will bump it up for you John
SJDinPHX said:You number crunchers are on pace to overcome the "Funny Girl pic/gif" thread.(over 2000 posts and climbing)
I had promised to send John B., and others, a long disertation on why I thought you guys were not playing with a full deck.
But a few too many SoCo's have invaded my system, and I'm afraid I might say what I REALLY think.
I hope I have made a few friends , and not too many enemies, as I tried to stumble through "your" world.
I wish you all success at finding "The Systematic Holy Grail of Pool"
My only fear is, you may do each other bodily harm before that happens.
I want to say a special few words to John B. You seem to be a successful
businessman with a very oversize ego. That ain't all that bad, but I have witnessed your braggadacio and, frankly I can't figure out where you're coming from. My guess would be some form of "insecurity" complex because you can't master the game of pool.
I am not, nor never was the best player to ever pick up a stick. But I have several bartenders and three ex-wives all dependent on my income.(not to mention my bride of 34 years.)
I am very comfortable in my retirement, and have never been what you have percieved me to be. I help out several of my old pal's from the pool world , who have not been as fortunate as me.
So don't put me down with your innuendos, and your superior attitude. I hope, for your sake, you find the "magic bullet" that makes you a world beater. We may never see eye to eye, but I will buy you a drink.
G'night all, and thank you Colin.
Dick
Whatever. It's not "my" world. You can spare me the amateur psychology lecture.
It's THE world. The world we both live in does not subscribe to JUST your view of what makes it turn.
Just because people have discovered different ways to approach the same subject - that subject being how to line up a shot - doesn't mean that they are wrong.
You know if weren't for the "science guys" you'd still be hustling with a mace with straw bundles for rails.
I am not a science guy either nor am I overly systematic. But I am someone who can play a little bit and know my way around the table so when I say that MY EXPERIENCE is such and such then I take offense to someone like you telling me that I am in fantasy world.
I guess you completely ignored the part where I said I was a fan of yours. Well you can forget it because now I am not a fan. If you think that being a roadie for so long gives you the right to be so condescending to me and others then you can forget about me having any respect for your viewpoint. I will however continue to enjoy your road stories if you care to continue sharing them with hopeless amateurs like myself.
You'll forgive me if I pass on One Pocket lessons with you though as I will never be good enough to absorb the brain crushing knowledge you have to impart.
Plus, I don't know how to aim anyway so your lessons would be wasted on me.
Colin Colenso said:
Colin,
Thank you for the link but that's not really my point. My point is, if there was a goal to be respectful to proponents of systems, perhaps more than a mathematical approach was needed when Dr. Dave wrote the article. We are, after all, more than math and physics at the pool table.
SJDinPHX said:Somehow I expected just such a reply from you. I must be a mind reader !
And you are forever striken from my (short) list of fans.
Unless of course you beg me.
Dick
PS John you are "unteachable". You allready know it all.
Well Dick you aimed for such a reply and you got it. Apparently whatever system you are using is working because you are a world class button pusher.
Fair point Jude.Jude Rosenstock said:
But it does go both ways. Ron V took a pretty big and personal swing.
FWIW: If something works for someone, it's not right to criticize them because they don't know why it works. It's silly to expect them to stop supporting it or spreading it if it helps them play better. After all, it's hard to know how feel works too.
I'm probably a bit guilty of being a bit harsh on some system proponents and system deniers over the years. I try to remain objective, but it does feel a bit like one's turf is being invaded when our ideas are criticized sometimes. Such is life where people communicate.
Colin
mikepage said:
I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with me or not. I can't find a problem with what you're saying. I think those that want to argue simply refuse to understand that others are going to have their opinions because they have personal evidence to support their claims (no matter which side of the spectrum you may fall). One would think that math and/or physics would solve the problem but truth be told, execution can be a little more complex than that.
From my own experiences, there have been times when I've been at the table and a lot was on the line. I'd look over the shot and suddenly, my peripheral vision would fail to register the sides of the table. It feels like I'm infinitely small and standing in the middle of the table without any ability of seeing the edge of my own little world. All I can see is the object ball, not even the pocket. I can't tell you how this feeling can only add to the complexity of a situation. Every time I've felt this way, I've approached it the same way and with success. I say, "Look at the object ball and trust your instincts" and the vast majority of the time, this seems to work. I can imagine, when others feel something similar, they resort to whatever will get the job done. If something seems to work a lot, they're going to convey their thoughts to others. The math behind their logic becomes irrelevant.
Pool doesn't need to be an exact science and in many cases, we're able to perform well without it. Nobody can tell me they have mastered the science behind swerve or deflection. Nobody can tell me they know precisely how much a ball will throw. I know this because anyone who knows about these things knows there is variance given the state of the equipment and the cue used. Yet, somehow the shooter seems to overcome these variances and manages to succeed with the task at hand. Given that this is possible, can't it be assumed that to a degree, all a shooter needs is a general understanding of what to aim for and they're going to be alright?
I admit, higher play calls for greater precision but where that precision comes from is not an easy answer to find. I've been a "feel player" for years now. My game has risen to heights beyond my goals and yet, I find it really really difficult to explain how I play pool to someone else. The only thing I can tell someone who asks me is to find precision through self-analysis. Get time at the table and hope a rather routine miss emerges for you to examine. Nobody wants to hear this advice. It suggests real work. Everybody wants it explained in words and frankly, I don't see how that's possible. It's like trying to explain to someone what the color 'blue' looks like when they've never seen it before.
Some players like having a sense of control over their actions and resorting to "feel" can make a lot of "controlers" nervous. Systems create a sense of control and can yield greater confidence. It's not my method but I have worthy opponents that employ this.
Colin Colenso said:Fair point Jude.
But it does go both ways. Ron V took a pretty big and personal swing.
FWIW: If something works for someone, it's not right to criticize them because they don't know why it works. It's silly to expect them to stop supporting it or spreading it if it helps them play better. After all, it's hard to know how feel works too.
I'm probably a bit guilty of being a bit harsh on some system proponents and system deniers over the years. I try to remain objective, but it does feel a bit like one's turf is being invaded when our ideas are criticized sometimes. Such is life where people communicate.
Colin
Agreed! Also, to add to MikePage's sentiments, there are other things here to discuss. The fact that we're all here in the same thread talking about our perception of attaining the right line of aim should be a blessing. This is a great opportunity for anyone looking to improve to find an ounce of wisdom that might bring their game to a new level. If we were all in agreement, we'd get nowhere. We're not in agreement and that's fine. We can argue what's wrong to no end which has already been proven by the length of this thread.
For me, I get a lot of my answers by playing darts. I'm absolutely horrible at it but there are a bunch of dart boards at the poolroom and sometimes I have to wait for a table. No matter what I read on mechanics or sight, no matter what people tell me to do, I still stink. The only time I see *slight* improvement is when I stop thinking about where to throw and just throw the darts. I wonder if there's a professional dart player that says that's all he does.
SJDinPHX said:You number crunchers are on pace to overcome the "Funny Girl pic/gif" thread.(over 2000 posts and climbing)
I had promised to send John B., and others, a long disertation on why I thought you guys were not playing with a full deck.
But a few too many SoCo's have invaded my system, and I'm afraid I might say what I REALLY think.
I hope I have made a few friends , and not too many enemies, as I tried to stumble through "your" world.
I wish you all success at finding "The Systematic Holy Grail of Pool"
My only fear is, you may do each other bodily harm before that happens.
I want to say a special few words to John B. You seem to be a successful
businessman with a very oversize ego. That ain't all that bad, but I have witnessed your braggadacio and, frankly I can't figure out where you're coming from. My guess would be some form of "insecurity" complex because you can't master the game of pool.
I am not, nor never was the best player to ever pick up a stick. But I have several bartenders and three ex-wives all dependent on my income.(not to mention my bride of 34 years.)
I am very comfortable in my retirement, and have never been what you have percieved me to be. I help out several of my old pal's from the pool world , who have not been as fortunate as me.
So don't put me down with your innuendos, and your superior attitude. I hope, for your sake, you find the "magic bullet" that makes you a world beater. We may never see eye to eye, but I will buy you a drink.
G'night all, and thank you Colin.
Dick
Don't bother Dick.
If you get him to woof at ya, he'll eventually crawfish out.
Eric
Eric. said:Don't bother Dick.
If you get him to woof at ya, he'll eventually crawfish out.
Eric
Really, so what, now you and Fast Larry aren't playing together and you have decided that you are going to be my stalker
I told you - just come to China and get the money. Are you ready to post?
I think you are the one doing back flips to get out of playing that would make Mary Lou Retton proud. I told you where I want to play and what I want to play and what I want to play for. I even told you that I will pay your plane ticket and hotel if you lose. So, odds on the money and a free vacation in sub-tropical Xiamen, China. Who's crawfishing now?
JB Cases said:Really, so what, now you and Fast Larry aren't playing together and you have decided that you are going to be my stalker
I told you - just come to China and get the money. Are you ready to post?
I think you are the one doing back flips to get out of playing that would make Mary Lou Retton proud. I told you where I want to play and what I want to play and what I want to play for. I even told you that I will pay your plane ticket and hotel if you lose. So, odds on the money and a free vacation in sub-tropical Xiamen, China. Who's crawfishing now?
Lolol! Why is it that when someone needs to try to find a way to take a cheap shot at me, they love to fall back on the Fast Liar-ry thing? That's the best you can do??
John, I'm willing to play ANY game we BOTH play (8 ball, 10 ball, rotation).
Why do I need to go to China when you agreed to play in Valley Forge or Vegas (March or May of '09)? I told ya I'll meet at either spot.
Find your balls, John :wink:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=120518&page=11
Eric
Eric. said:
I didn't AGREE to play in Valley Forge - I said IF I am there THEN we can play. I probably WILL NOT be there as my BABY is due in February. But I INVITED you to come to China and play me and even offered to PAY your way IF you lose.
You barked at me. You are the one who can't decide if you are yanking my chain or yanking your own.
I really don't know WHAT your issue is but if you think playing me will resolve it then POST the cash and come over here and play. We have 30 poolrooms, gold crowns, copies of gold crowns, private rooms, professional videographer and broadband in the pool rooms. You'll be treated like a king and if you manage to win you'll be $5000 richer.
As for the Larry comment yeah it's the best I can do. You and he ruined RSB and you took it out on him by slugging him at Valley Forge. Now I guess since no one will play with you you feel the need to stalk me by barking at me in other threads.
All you need to do is man up and get on a plane or did they take your passport for beating up senior citizens?
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Finally read every post.
LOL, Great reading guys, It took me awhile especially with only one eye but I got through it all.
Lots of good info and stimulating ideas from both sides. Even humor and good sarcasm. I love the back and forth of ideas, it takes someone to question systems sometimes to have others just think about it and hopefully improve with better understanding. Whether that understanding comes from the intellect or from just doing it until whamo! the light comes on.
I really appreciate all of you guys and your input. I will close with an attributed statement that I really like by Herbert Spencer.
?There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation?
LOL, Great reading guys, It took me awhile especially with only one eye but I got through it all.
Lots of good info and stimulating ideas from both sides. Even humor and good sarcasm. I love the back and forth of ideas, it takes someone to question systems sometimes to have others just think about it and hopefully improve with better understanding. Whether that understanding comes from the intellect or from just doing it until whamo! the light comes on.
I really appreciate all of you guys and your input. I will close with an attributed statement that I really like by Herbert Spencer.
?There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation?