Agent of Change-Hard Core Gambling vs. Professional Play

[hax]

If they put some of these guys in a room, let em woof at each other, match up at whatever they wanted to, and go at it, we'd have a hell of a tv program.

Therein lies the rub. They can woof and never go at it. The match is open ended, no fixed time limits, live or taped? Commercial breaks? How would you trim this down to 30 or 60 minutes? What fraction would be allocated to woofing, what fraction to actual play? Do you cut the program before the real end? That's like having sex and being told to pull out before you're done and handed a tissue. It's just not a good format for TV. What is on TV is already trimmed down to fit, in a race to 7 half the matches can be cut out.

So, what do you show? A 2 man comedy routine under the title of Billiards? Should someone remake the Abbot and Costello routine of "Who's on first?" to be about billiards? Honestly, a bit of emotion and personality is fine, but I get a better laugh from professional comedians doing their stand up routines than with 2 guys trying to get an edge, or if televised, play up to the TV audience (hams).

How about if we show one of these road players going into a pool hall on the wrong side of town (not some lame wrong side of town that other people refer to), woof it up when he should keep his mouth shut, and play a gangbanger for money, win and try to make it out of there alive after dissing the gangbanger in front of his homeboys? America loves reality TV after all. In case nobody got it, that's sardonicism.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Yeah, maybe, if the dumping could be controlled or at least if the players could become better actors.

The same problems exist for horse-racing & boxing. You will never be able to completely eliminate that problem. Hell, you even see it in the NCAA and college kids don't get paid squat.


Jude M. Rosenstock

 

[BazookaJoe]

Therein lies the rub. They can woof and never go at it. The match is open ended, no fixed time limits, live or taped? Commercial breaks? How would you trim this down to 30 or 60 minutes? What fraction would be allocated to woofing, what fraction to actual play? Do you cut the program before the real end? That's like having sex and being told to pull out before you're done and handed a tissue. It's just not a good format for TV. What is on TV is already trimmed down to fit, in a race to 7 half the matches can be cut out.

So, what do you show? A 2 man comedy routine under the title of Billiards? Should someone remake the Abbot and Costello routine of "Who's on first?" to be about billiards? Honestly, a bit of emotion and personality is fine, but I get a better laugh from professional comedians doing their stand up routines than with 2 guys trying to get an edge, or if televised, play up to the TV audience (hams).

How about if we show one of these road players going into a pool hall on the wrong side of town (not some lame wrong side of town that other people refer to), woof it up when he should keep his mouth shut, and play a gangbanger for money, win and try to make it out of there alive after dissing the gangbanger in front of his homeboys? America loves reality TV after all. In case nobody got it, that's sardonicism.

Well, you edit the program for airtime.
Like the interviews with the poker players.

And your "wrong side of town" idea sounds a bit like Pool Hall Junkies.
And PHJ is NOT how it is in reality.

 

[watchez]

Actually, I think horse-racing is a very interesting sport to look at because there is no regional-affiliation whatsoever. In fact, most people carry no personal feelings toward any of the owners, horses or jockeys. It's all about the money and which one is gonna pay. Trust me, if pool could have five years of organized betting at pro events, the popularity would take off.

Poker's popularity is unique primarily because (borrowing from Steve Lipsky's points from past) it's online and the luck factor is huge. BUT that doesn't mean we can't learn from poker. It's obvious to me that the country is fascinated with Hold 'em BECAUSE they think they're gambling.


Jude M. Rosenstock

Things like the WSOP/WPT events, I compare to the same as playing the lottery, only the ticket costs you a lot more money. People get the feeling that they are on an even scale with the long time poker player after just a few short months of playing themselves. That cannot happen in pool. Poker has flown past pool in terms of popularity and done so without a corporate sponsor. Simply amazing. Chris Moneymaker should get royalties from the organizers of poker tournaments for the rest of his life. His victory in the WSOP 2 years ago has made every average person think they have a chance. This month in Tunica MS they have month long poker tournaments, winding up with another $10,000 entry fee event. The other night they had a $500 entry fee 1200 person tournament and had a line a football field long of people trying to register. Another amazing thing about the popularity of poker on TV is that most of it is not seen live. My friend got 4th in a WPT event in Aruba last October & it won't be shown on TV til March. I think poker's popularity is an unique situation & you can't compare it to pool as much as people want to.
Once last thought, though....Pool players have quit playing pool to take up poker.....does anyone think the reverse will ever happen? (I saw the great Jack Cooney in Vegas last year playing about the lowest level of poker you can find--$3-$6 hold em-- & he told me he was having the time of his life and hadn't played pool in over 2 years. He had a few quick questions for me about some of the people in the pool world but then right back to his game. He is far from broke but just enjoying the game of poker. Quite a change from a guy that spent his life earning his living in pool.)

 

[hax]

And your "wrong side of town" idea sounds a bit like Pool Hall Junkies.
And PHJ is NOT how it is in reality.

I've not seen or read PHJ or know what that is. However, I did start shooting pool in a pool hall frequented by gangsters. Everyone knew to keep your eyes on your own table, away from the gangsters, and your mouth shut if you don't want something broken. I've seen that with my own eyes, and I know people that got beat up and stabbed for daring to play them for money, winning, and being asinine. Idiots in my book, but that's life. True, they didn't die, but those gangsters have killed plenty. So, what's not real about it? I've witnessed it. I've also seen people robbed for their sneakers, and people beat up and stabbed because of their skin color, or is that just an urban myth too?

Well, you edit the program for airtime.
Like the interviews with the poker players.

And what do you get after editing down to 30 minutes with commercial breaks? It reminds me of an old saying...it's like a story told by an idiot, full of rage and fury but signifying nothing. You essentially get a bunch of rubbish that has no continuity and maybe a handful of matches in a set.

 

[BazookaJoe]

I've not seen or read PHJ or know what that is. However, I did start shooting pool in a pool hall frequented by gangsters. Everyone knew to keep your eyes on your own table, away from the gangsters, and your mouth shut if you don't want something broken. I've seen that with my own eyes, and I know people that got beat up and stabbed for daring to play them for money, winning, and being asinine. Idiots in my book, but that's life. True, they didn't die, but those gangsters have killed plenty. So, what's not real about it? I've witnessed it. I've also seen people robbed for their sneakers, and people beat up and stabbed because of their skin color, or is that just an urban myth too?



And what do you get after editing down to 30 minutes with commercial breaks? It reminds me of an old saying...it's like a story told by an idiot, full of rage and fury but signifying nothing. You essentially get a bunch of rubbish that has no continuity and maybe a handful of matches in a set.

Didn't suggest places like that don't exist. But the road players know better.
And sound bytes and snippets are all the general public requires.

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing

 

[hax]

Didn't suggest places like that don't exist. But the road players know better.

Perhaps, but it's still part of pool IMHO.

And sound bytes and snippets are all the general public requires.

Really? I surely don't. With editing, a saint can be made a sinner, and vice versa. The public has a strange way of deciding how sound bytes and snippets will be interpreted. I still think it's the wrong format for TV. We'll agree to disagree on that, cause it's just going to go back and forth.

And I see you know Macbeth, kudos.

 

[Rackin_Zack]

You're right, it isn't gambling. You pay an entry fee and then you're there 'til you win it all or you're busted. You can't say "I'm up a tidy $100 thou, I then I'll call it a day." The thing is though it looks like gambling and pool tournaments don't. That's what the skins game brings, the appearance of gambling.
Personally, I have no fascination with gambling whatsoever. It neither enhances nor decrease my enjoyment of a match. However, I think the people here who stated a gambling appearance may help pool may just be right. Some people find gambling boring (yours truly), but more people I think enjoy it. So I guess it is worth a try.
Give the suckers what the want as they say.

I think it would be kind of cool to see a poker style tournament in a ring game format. A field of 120 or so on 20 tables all trying to make their way to the final table with the stakes going up on a time table. Of course there's no excitement of an all in but then at least there would be the appearance of money changing hands and having to make it to "the final table!"

On the other hand, poker, it seems, can be supported by the money of the players alone. When you have a $10,000 entry fee and 2500 people can play that makes for a big payoff. However, unlike poker, your average Joe can't walk into a big pool tournament and have even a tiny chance of taking home first.

 

[OldHasBeen]

It's the Color, Not the Skill!

JAM - This is a great thread and I THINK the AZers are finally getting it.

Quite a few years ago while in my prime, I was speaking with the raining world champ who was capturing most of the 1st place trophies for the past 3 years. We were talking money and his gross income had been 140K average. He was "On The Road" in tourneys for an average of 10.5 months per year. He had a sponsor but a lot of expenses came out of the 140K. His net income was 55K average.

I AM NOT MAKING THIS STATEMENT TO "BLOW MY OWN HORN" BUT -

During this same 3-year period I was averaging over 130K per year and was only going out for 2.5 - 3 weeks at a time. I always stayed home for at least two weeks before going out again.

MY POINT BEING THAT IT WASN'T THERE THEN AND IT'S NOT NOW!

I am also sure that I couldn't make the same $ today that I made back then because of raising expenses and all the casino's are taking the recreational dollars out of society.

As far as making the game more appealing to the masses, why couldn't an announcer (not Mitch) explain to the audience what is going on in a "Skins Game"? What they are saying AND why they’re saying it. Let the players match up and let the people see how it works.
Now that would be interesting AND entertaining to the public & pool players alike. It would probably have to be on cable because you would want them to be themselves and have no restrictions on language.

I was so impressed by the skins game the other night that I have started a game at the pool hall. We get 4 players of pretty close talent and we all put up $20 to start. Every time a player comes up to play he puts in $5. If he comes up the 2nd time he puts in $10. 3rd time $15 & 4th $20. We play winner breaks and the pot is won when a player wins 3 in a row. We have had many games that awarded over $300 and most are about $175 - $225. We are having more fun than a barrel of monkeys and you know what else - There is always 20 to 40 railbirds betting and watching. They are spending pretty well also because not only can they participate by betting but also the atmosphere is not one where you must be quiet. EVERYONE IS SHOUTING AND SHARKING but it is good-natured. I never get sharked because I expect it. It's like a jukebox after a while.

More later, gotta go.

TY & GL

 

[catscradle]

I think it would be kind of cool to see a poker style tournament in a ring game format. A field of 120 or so on 20 tables all trying to make their way to the final table with the stakes going up on a time table. Of course there's no excitement of an all in but then at least there would be the appearance of money changing hands and having to make it to "the final table!"

On the other hand, poker, it seems, can be supported by the money of the players alone. When you have a $10,000 entry fee and 2500 people can play that makes for a big payoff. However, unlike poker, your average Joe can't walk into a big pool tournament and have even a tiny chance of taking home first.

What would really work is if a way could be found to simulate the betting interaction of poker where a competitor controls what they bet at any given time based upon their hand. I can't think of a similar scenario in pool unless the match included negotiating a spot and "bet". I've racked my brain and I can't think of a way. Skins will do I guess.

 

[breakup]

What would really work is if a way could be found to simulate the betting interaction of poker where a competitor controls what they bet at any given time based upon their hand. I can't think of a similar scenario in pool unless the match included negotiating a spot and "bet". I've racked my brain and I can't think of a way. Skins will do I guess.

Ever played with a backgammon doubling cube ? Same doubling rules as backgammon.

The game starts with the cube representing one “point”. At anytime in the game either player just prior to their shot can elect to double the stakes by turning the cube to two. The opponent can either accept the increase and now the game is worth two “points” or decline and pays one “point” and the game is over. If player 2 accepts the double then he has control of the cube and only he can redouble to four. If player 2 does eventually redouble to four and player 1 accepts then the control of the cube goes to player 1. (A doubling cube goes to 64 points)

One pocket lends itself to this because there can be a lot of back and fourth one player has an advantage then the other etc.

 

[OldHasBeen]

Doubling Cube is a GREAT idea.

Breakup - That is a great idea for one pocket. I forgot that I have done it a few years ago with a big gambler here. (Big Jake). It added a lot of action & decision making.
That would be just the ticket for TV.
TY & GL

 

[watchez]

Breakup - That is a great idea for one pocket. I forgot that I have done it a few years ago with a big gambler here. (Big Jake). It added a lot of action & decision making.
That would be just the ticket for TV.
TY & GL

Tom...do you see the irony, for lack of a better word, that 'Big Jake' is no longer around the pool scene & in fact is down in Tunica MS for all the poker tournaments.

I , too, think that the doubling cube would be great for pool on TV. Although I think the general public might have a hard time understanding the game of One Pocket. The announcers for pool, when using the telestrator (sp?), half the time demonstrate the incorrect shot for 9 ball. Just think what would happen if they were trying to diagram when Efren was looking over the table during a game of one pocket. That being said, I think that the telestrator for pool should be used more like it is in football. AFTER THE PLAY. You don't see John Madden drawing on the screen as the team comes up to the line of scrimmage trying to guess what play will be called. He uses it to explain why a play was successful, after the fact.
The doubling cube could be the pool version of the 'all in' bet of poker. Everyone stops, stands up, sees if the opponent accepts the bet & then let the run out begin.

 

[OldHasBeen]

Your 100% Right!

Watchez - Your correct but what I think is exciting is that we are finally talking along the right track.
Hey - Who knows who might be seeing these views.
TY & GL

 

[vapoolplayer]

Watchez - Your correct but what I think is exciting is that we are finally talking along the right track.
Hey - Who knows who might be seeing these views.
TY & GL

that would be a great idea as far as the doubling and such. it would be almost the same as a poker player making a bet or going all in. then it would be the other players move to call, or fold. i think that would lend to alot of excitemnt. allen hopkins are you reading???? LOL

 

[JAM]

...allen hopkins are you reading???? LOL

I've noticed that all of Allen Hopkins' events are successful. Whether it is the Super Billiards Expo or the Skins Billiards Championship, the man's got a knack for making it happen.

Hopkins took a chance with the Skins Billiards Championship, and it was a hit. Whatever event Hopkins is involved with, I know it's going to be a level playing field, fair and equitable to all players -- no favoritism, no special treatment for one player over another, no unexpected rule changes.

Allen Hopkins is an agent of change (IMO), and I hope to see more of Hopkins' events in 2005.

JAM

 

[vagabond]

If you could place bets on the competitors, pool would be live on ESPN.


Jude M. Rosenstock

Howdy Jude,
One time a Casino did it and after that they did not want to deal with pool and pool players.They did not trust the pool players(Alleged Dumping,double crossing,Lemonade etc.).If my memory serves me well,it was during the world championships in LasVegas( ? 1994/95) when they had semiFinals and finals on Live ESPN.Cheers
Vagabond

 

[JAM]

...One time a Casino did it and after that they did not want to deal with pool and pool players.They did not trust the pool players(Alleged Dumping,double crossing,Lemonade etc.).If my memory serves me well,it was during the world championships in LasVegas( ? 1994/95) when they had semiFinals and finals on Live ESPN....

Well, Vagabond, that was then and this is now, the year 2005. I could tell you about an incident which occurred several decades ago when certain prominent pool players promoted an event and left town with all the tournament monies, leaving their fellow players and peers dry and empty. And there was a tour not so long ago that never paid off its players, but the administration deemed it prudent to stuff their own pockets, again, leaving the players with no recourse. Even today, some pool organizations have their own set of rules which favor a select few, making it impossible for other pool players to be a part of the happenings.

Let me give you a little flavor of what the pool players think about dumping in competitive venues by relaying a story about a recent incident at the Skins Billiards Championship.

At the players' meeting before the event, Allen Hopkins and Billiards International explained the rules and invited questions and concerns. Larry Nevel raised his hand up and asked, "Is there any prevention mechanism to prevent players from saving and/or dumping?," or words to that effect.

Billiards International immediately came forth and stated that anybody caught doing such an atrocity would be banned from all future events. Then Mike Massey, who competed in the event, stood up and said, "And if I catch anybody saving or dumping, I'm going to write about it in every pool magazine, too." He was dead serious. Nobody at the Skins Billiards Championship wanted this magnificant event to be tarnished with that kind of image, to include the players. They were happy to be a part of this event, and it was EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF.

Players are concerned about the image of pool (IMO), and believe it or not, I think folks are doing their damnedest to get rid of this image. To continue dragging pool in the gutter by mentioning dumps, double-crosses, and savers doesn't prove a damn thing. It only muddies the waters for those who are striving to present a good image and move forward to greener pastures.

I can state with 100-percent assurance that I personally would NEVER take part in any dump as it pertains to me and mine, no matter how much money is on the table. Maybe I am too optimistic, but I'd like to see the sport move to the next frontier and excel, and from what I have observed in the past few years, I think other players feel the same way.

When you mentioned in a previous post that it looked as if Keith intentionally missed the 2-9 combo with ball in hand, it looked to me like you were suggesting he did so deliberately, with malice aforethought, and NOTHING could be further from the truth. He's still having nightmares about that miss, what could have been if he went for the run out, but it's all water under the bridge now.

Vagabond, your glass seems to always be half empty, and mine seems to be half full.

JAM

 

[mjantti]

by the way, JAM, I LOVE the word plethora
It's a completely underused term

I remember seeing an Accu-Stat tape in which Grady introduced to word... at least to me. The rest of the commentators went "whaaaat ???!!"

 

[JimS]

I think that, like golf, the public image will need to be the tournaments while the behind the scenes gambling might be insider knowledge but be relatively unknown by the general public.

Everybody has to play "the game"....which means it all has to have the proper twist on it...has to look clean and proper but after hours....................

I know that's a crock but that's the game.