Agree/Disagree, we need everyone's opinion to make 3C tournaments better...

3

3c4ever

Registered
Everyone,

There are a lot of players (in Southern CA) talk to me about the tournament format that is running by the USBA. Many of them have very interesting opinions and critiques about this tournament format so I’m going list them here so that we all can voice out whether we should implement changes. So everyone! Please get ready and reply with your response.

First of all, three cushion is an honorable game and players usually dress up in tournaments, well…at least they try and that’s great.

The format is Round Robin with six or seven players in each group. That means each player will have to play five or six matches.

And here are the Problems:

1. Disrespect - Players forfeit the remaining matches when they find out that they basically have no chance to win the second spot or to advance to the finals. Players don’t want to play anymore because the remaining matches are meaningless, and even if they have to play, they just want to finish the match quickly because it tortures them if they have to play hard. One player wants to play the match because he pays for the entry fee and expects to play all of his matches but the other player doesn’t want to play.
We don’t want to force a player to play the match, but rather let him play at his will. He pays for the entry fee, if the match means something to him, then he will play hard to try to win the match. We have to understand that it’s difficult for most players to play a match seriously when you know that you have no chance of making it into the finals.

2. Dishonesty, (Game Fixing, sounds like we’re in the world of basketball huh?): Players intentionally miss shots and let their friend win the match so that he can advance to the final. I personally had a player came up to me and told me that he would give me 20% of his money price if I let him win, one time another player offered me 75 dollars if I just let him win, LOL. I saw this happen pretty much on all tournaments that I have played.
Think about this! How would you feel if a player beat you out on the second place because he had a fixed game???
We need to MINIMIZE the chance of this happening again. It’s insulting to the game and to the players.

Other Factors to consider:
3. Many tournaments have to run three days when it can be done in only two days. The reason is that players play unnecessary matches, those meaningless matches. Players come to compete in tournaments, they don’t come to play fun matches.
If you think that a player pays 150/250 entry fee will play 6 quality matches then you’re probably wrong. The player only get to play 3 or 4 serious matches, the rest of the matches are just for fun because it’s either him or his opponent lost the interest in the game because one of them is out of the tournament.

4. The best players already have a better chance of winning the tournament than the average players. In a round robin of 6/7 players, the best players have even a more GREATER chance of winning.
In the World Cup now, qualifications are grouped with three players only that make each make an exciting must win. When it comes to the round with 32 players, it’s a single knock out match. Also, the players are playing best of 5 sets of 15 points (not a one game of 50 points) and that give the good players a slightly better chance than they actually have to beat the great players. The UMB wants the good players to win World Cup titles too and not just the Great Ones.

5. A standard UBSA tour with 250 entry fee is way too much and a $50 membership doesn’t make much sense when an average player can only afford to play one tournament only in a year. That means it costs a player $50 in addition to entry fee just to play in one USBA tournament. If the entry fee were 100 or 150, players can play three tournaments a year. So the cost to play in one tournament is not 50, but 1/3 which is about $17. That is how a typical player looks at when it comes to membership.
Many B level players told me that they can’t play in USBA tour because of high entry fee and membership fee with very little chance of advancing into the finals.
For me personally, $50 membership is great because I support the USBA, I love the game and everything else provided by the USBA.

Anyways, a lot of players insisted that Sportsmanship is most important and #1. Game Fixing, #2. Quitting unfinished matches/Forfeiting matches are unprofessional and it disgraces the sport and its players. The Players believe that the USBA will help to make a change.

Here are the proposed solutions from the players:

1. Round Robin with FOUR players only.
-Each player plays three serious matches. This format makes each match more important and can increase excitement level.
-Smaller group helps MINIMIZE game Fixing and players quitting matches.
-Best players still are the favorite to win (even with Handicap) but the chance is a little bit lower compare to a group of 7 players. The best players work harder on the table than the rest of us so they deserve to win and we all can see that they often win.
-Gilbert recently used the Handicap system (35/31/28/25) in Maywood’s tournament successfully.
-First place in each group advance to finals, second place go into lottery pick, 3rd and 4th go for the auction.
-If 8 players are in the finals, there should be two groups (A and B) again. Then 1st in group A vs. 1st in group B for 1st and 2nd places, 2nd in group A vs. 2nd in group B for 3rd and 4th places and so forth….This will make the final more exciting than having a round robin with 8 players.

2. Pool tournaments have great success with Double Elimination format.
-Everyone is the equal and no seeded players.
-Lower entry fee attract more players.
-Handicap used, everyone think that they can win.
-Finish a field of 70 players in two days, No need to ask your boss for a day off.
-Might not fit in 3C tournaments because we’re all used to play in Round Robin so choice #1 is better.


This is my longest post ever and thank you for reading…

Billiard Lover
 
I'm sorry I can't help much here but I am a USBA member. It stuns me that people would forfeit matches because they knew they didn't have a chance. If I was in that situation I'd want some of my money back. I paid for 6 matches I want 6 matches.

In my opinion, if someone wants to forfeit that match then they should have to pay their opponent however much that match cost. If it's a $250.00 entry and you have 5 matches and someone wants to forfeit then they should pay the guy 25 bucks. It's only fair.

Stopping people from purposely losing a match so a friend can get in would be difficult. How could you prove it? But, if someone is caught doing it they should be banned, period. If someone is paying someone etc... to drop a match then both of them should be banned. No if's and's or but's about it.
MULLY
 
Just my 2 cents for the system in the last 8.When it comes down to that 8 players, you can make 2 groups of 4 like you said.After the round robin though, Winner of group A plays 2nd of Group B and winner of group B plays 2nd of Group A.So you use semifinals.The winners go on to play the final, and losers play for third and fourth place.In my opinion, it's a more exciting system for the last 8.
 
makism said:
Just my 2 cents for the system in the last 8.When it comes down to that 8 players, you can make 2 groups of 4 like you said.After the round robin though, Winner of group A plays 2nd of Group B and winner of group B plays 2nd of Group A.So you use semifinals.The winners go on to play the final, and losers play for third and fourth place.In my opinion, it's a more exciting system for the last 8.
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That's how we do it here. We take it all the way down to 5th/6th. Money is paid to 5th place.
 
Non Sanction USBA Tournament Require no $50 membership.
Sanction USBA Tournament reguire one time $50 Membership

There something call a Fine for unsportmanship.

Payout number will alway be an issue.

Since I 'm #1 USBA NonMember and The RatFinker, who don't play in tournament. I have no say.

But You [USBA] should consider a $10.00 USBA Honorary Tournament Player Membership [for Non USBA Member] +Tournament Entry Fee.

If that player win in the money, total membership payment require, before prize money payout.

If that $10.00 USBA Honorary Tournament Player play 6 tournament that $60.00 + USBA membership due still require of $40.00= total $100.00 + the 6 Tournament Entry Fee $$$. Add it up Win Win For USBA
 
I think you're on the right track with #1, and some of what mully says about going farther down in the placement with payouts. The big round robins are ridiculous. You brought up pool tournaments - think about the differences. Billiards always takes longer. Even if you're talking about B players, how long will a 9 ball match last? If someone gets an easy combo on the 9 off the break, it's over in 30 seconds. Even with 15 pt billiards matches, it takes time, especially with alot of defense. Also, unless you're at a place like Carom Cafe with alot of tables, alot of places across the country only have maybe two, and they're fewer and far between, so people need to travel more, more waiting time.
I noticed you said this about pool tourneys:
Finish a field of 70 players in two days, No need to ask your boss for a day off.
Can you imagine a billiards tournament at a billiard hall with four tables playing 6 round robin matches with 70 players? Get divorced and quit your job. The big round robins are too exhausting, even if you're in the running, it's a long day. Too long, too many matches, too easy to stop caring. If you have a couple bad games at the beginning and you're out of the running, I don't blame you, who wants to spend two, three full days hanging around waiting for a match that won't make any difference. And you can't do anything about it, either, other than forcing them to play the match, which they'll throw as fast as they can.
Please change this, smaller groups, shorter time, the long robins are more of an endurance test than anything. Pool tourneys go quick, five minute game, done, on to the next. I'd rather play and watch games that mean something and people play their best. Even sometimes with the SLIO, I love it, but around 8:30 at night, I'm not sure I care enough, I'll find out what happened the next day. Even with pros 30,40 points can be a long slog. Not sure I care to see some B player trudge through 30 points.
 
eze123 said:
I think you're on the right track with #1, and some of what mully says about going farther down in the placement with payouts. The big round robins are ridiculous. You brought up pool tournaments - think about the differences. Billiards always takes longer. Even if you're talking about B players, how long will a 9 ball match last? If someone gets an easy combo on the 9 off the break, it's over in 30 seconds. Even with 15 pt billiards matches, it takes time, especially with alot of defense. Also, unless you're at a place like Carom Cafe with alot of tables, alot of places across the country only have maybe two, and they're fewer and far between, so people need to travel more, more waiting time.
I noticed you said this about pool tourneys:
Finish a field of 70 players in two days, No need to ask your boss for a day off.
Can you imagine a billiards tournament at a billiard hall with four tables playing 6 round robin matches with 70 players? Get divorced and quit your job. The big round robins are too exhausting, even if you're in the running, it's a long day. Too long, too many matches, too easy to stop caring. If you have a couple bad games at the beginning and you're out of the running, I don't blame you, who wants to spend two, three full days hanging around waiting for a match that won't make any difference. And you can't do anything about it, either, other than forcing them to play the match, which they'll throw as fast as they can.
Please change this, smaller groups, shorter time, the long robins are more of an endurance test than anything. Pool tourneys go quick, five minute game, done, on to the next. I'd rather play and watch games that mean something and people play their best. Even sometimes with the SLIO, I love it, but around 8:30 at night, I'm not sure I care enough, I'll find out what happened the next day. Even with pros 30,40 points can be a long slog. Not sure I care to see some B player trudge through 30 points.
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eze123,
You are totally right, my post was long and i got tired of writing/explaining. A 3C/USBA tournament with the same number of players takes four times longer than a 9-Ball tournament in pool. That's rediculous. I witnessed a place in orange county with 28 players playing on 8 tables and it took them 3 days to finish. Why is that? Round robin with 7 players...Players played matches that don't make a different in the outcome. They got tired of waiting and prefered to sit and watch the best players play instead of playing the game themselves.

Here's my last experience: group of 7 again, first four was good and enough. Last two were pain in the ass cuz i was out already. I got a bye and waited for 1.5 hours and then i played my fifth match. The guy took less then 10 seconds to hit a shot, kept looking at the clock. Then after 15 minutes came to me and asked if he can go home with his family, he was so tired. it was a race to 28 point handicap, emagine if we had to finish the match, i would take at least 2.5 hours cuz we couldn't make shot, all we did was banging the balls around... Here's the funny thing, i reported a high and fast scoring game and made the joke that we've just played our best game ever averaging 4.0 per inning, and people laughed... If you put yourself in my situation then you will understand how it feel, just a waste of time... Here's another thing that happened, i asked a guy why he missed very easy shots and he replied that his opponent needed a win...You see, things like that happen cuz players play extra matches that they don't really have to... I swear to you on this, Los Amigos and every players here and i'm not calling names or being mean but it's true. All of them have done or intended to do this given the circumstances, that is try to miss shot INTENTIONALLY for some reason...LOL...Except for one guy, Pedrabuena, cuz he never lost. This reminds me, i almost beat him out on the qualification last time on a very close game.

Here is exactly what the USBA try to do for the players: The USBA want players to play at least six match because they pay for entry fee. USBA think that players won't play again if they only play 3/4 matches. What they don't know is that only a very small percentage of players actually like that. The majority, more than 90%, are not interested in playing matches that dont make a difference. It's lengthy and tiring...

In what sport, in which country do you see a tournament feature qualification round robin with 7 players and a final round robin with 8 players? Only here, the USBA tournament....A lengthly format that is not very exciting to watch especially the final match....it's rare, but it happens that the last and final match is not needed to determine first and second place cuz the best player has six wins already and everyone else has at least two losses behind him, why play match #7, right?

Many players outhere are planning to have round robin with four players. However, it will be much easier if the USBA make an announcement or implement the changes....

Im speaking for all the players outthere, especially los amigos.:mad::boring2:
 
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3c4ever said:
eze123,
You are totally right, my post was long and i got tired of writing/explaining. A 3C/USBA tournament with the same number of players takes four times longer than a 9-Ball tournament in pool. That's rediculous. I witnessed a place in orange county with 28 players playing on 8 tables and it took them 3 days to finish. Why is that? Round robin with 7 players...Players played matches that don't make a different in the outcome. They got tired of waiting and prefered to sit and watch the best players play instead of playing the game themselves.

In what sport, in :
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WHERE IN ORANGE CTY is a place with 8 tables????????
 
3C4ever and responders,

There are valid points made by each of you. I can assure you that the USBA board is examining a lot of subjects including tournament formatting.

The intention is to add more tournaments/leagues/shot contests/3C exposure to pool events etc.

Your input is appreciated.

We are aggressively looking for sponsors to help fund different formats and concepts to keep 3C on the front burner.

Right now we are looking for a volunteer to be the liason between the USBA and AZ Billiards. E-mail upcoming events/post results etc.

Please pm me if you would like to be the USBA event promo person to AZ Billiards and any experience you have with PR work.

Thanks in advance,

Steve Andersen
USBA Midwest Director
 
"Here is exactly what the USBA try to do for the players: The USBA want players to play at least six match because they pay for entry fee. USBA think that players won't play again if they only play 3/4 matches."
Yeah, if you just want to play matches, just play somebody at a hall. The point of a tournament is to try to win, or at least try to get close and play well. I think most people would rather really focus and put everything they have into a few games, rather than 'get their money's worth' and play hundreds of points, until you just start knocking shots out to get it over with because there's still two days and hundreds more points to go.
"In what sport, in which country do you see a tournament feature qualification round robin with 7 players and a final round robin with 8 players? Only here, the USBA tournament...."
Exactly. If there's any game that requires some thought and careful skill, it's billiards. Would you rather see people put together 4-5 ball runs, or them knocking balls around to get it over with?
Walt Harris has a rant on it in one of the billiards books, the old "billiards insanity that never changes". It's exactly what the game doesn't need: limit the number of people that can enter, make it difficult for those that do if they have a family or job or knees that give out after standing for hours on end, and make it a grueling endurance test for the players and anyone unfortunate enough to have to watch.
It sounds like the USBA is willing to listen to changes, the internet is great for this, it's easy to get feedback from people all over.
Here's a suggestion: go to the main AZ pool board, and link to this thread, and suggest they adopt the billiards tournament format - not sure how you would stretch 9-ball out to the same amount of time, though - quadruple round robin format with 20 players in each flight? - and see how many pool players come running to play.
 
Heck, do whatever you want to determine the final 8 (round robin of some sort as discussed or double elimination until down to 8) and then play a single elimination tournament from there like the rest of the world does. Can't get more exciting then that! Either use a blind draw to start the last 8 or seed based on Wins & Losses &/or averages.

This would provide equity in the top finishers and maybe generate more players because they would have a shot to finish high if they get hot.

Dave
 
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It would be good, I think, if some of the USBA directors commented on this thread. I know one has already, but if more of the USBA management commented specifically on the current tournament format, that would give the idea that they're actually engaged in the course of things. I personally feel that nothing will come of it, the same old same old will continue and then later there will be the usual hand wringing over why people won't join the USBA, and so forth.
 
Well I guess I'm the odd man out here. Yes 3C tournaments are looooonnnnng and grueling. Its probably one of the reasons I haven't played in one for a couple of years. Add this with the fact that I have to travel between 200 & 400 miles to play and finishing up late Sunday afternoon then drive home. Not a pretty picture. But even with that being the case if I decide to enter, I want to PLAY BILLIARDS! Thats why I've entered and invested 3 or 4 bills.

I don't have a solution and I think there's probably problems with any way you go. I played in a handicap tournament several years ago and some of us were spotting players 15 points to 25 and there were still complainers. Geeezz. Speaking of handicaps, we need an accurate way of calculating them. Handicap Cards?????

The original poster has some serious and valid points that need to be addressed and corrected but I kinda get the feeling that the two main problems listed as Disrespect and Dishonest are issues in areas were tournaments are either plentiful or mostly local players or both. In other words theres not much more $$ investment beyond the entry fee and heck in a couple of weeks or months there's gonna be another one of these. So what the heck lets just quit and or help one of my buddies win some cash.

So here's something for the USBA boss's to ponder. (Remember I'm just a mushroom.) Rather than ONE Accepted Format for all tournaments, have 2 or 3 ACCEPTABLE Sanctioned Formats. Tournament organizers can choose from the short list and take their chances with the turnout and success of the event. As time goes on things can be tweaked.
 
My three or four cents....

I agree, in many of the USBA tournaments, folks are travelling great distances, either by car or plane to attend. $100-$200 for entry, plus hotels, meals, airfare, etc. etc. If the format were only double elimination. I wouldn't attend, simply because I know I am not good enough to win (yet). I attend to have the opportunity to play against better players and socialize, too. With the round robin format, I am guaranteed at least 5 games, usually. If your travelling, those games could be costing you more than $100 per game, so you want to play, because it's fun, and you enjoy it.

Handicap tournaments are generally a let down for everyone, and creates lots of complaining. I'd rather show up and take my chances against whomever shows up. It challenges me. Which is another reason to go in the first place.

Having multiple formats might be helpful for rooms where they have a lot of local players and they are lucky enough to be able to have lots of tournaments. When I was in Boston, World class billiards used to have weekly double elimination tournaments. It was fun, but nobody was travelling for them, and I think it was like $15 entry.

I have travelled to a few tournaments recently that were round robin format, and more often than not, the organizers do such a good job, that, it is not nessesary to hang around and wait for your match(although most like to stay and watch). They have a pretty good plan and idea, when your next match will occur. So if you feel like going home to take a nap or whatever. It is possible. For instance, you just finished playing a match at 10am, you go and ask about your next match. You might be told that you should be back around 2pm, great, I'll go do some sight seeing, or whatever.

What 3C4ever talks about, seems like a VERY local thing. I have never witnessed any game throwing or other behavior like he is describing.
 
tiger37373 said:
My three or four cents....

I agree, in many of the USBA tournaments, folks are travelling great distances, either by car or plane to attend. $100-$200 for entry, plus hotels, meals, airfare, etc. etc. If the format were only double elimination. I wouldn't attend, simply because I know I am not good enough to win (yet). I attend to have the opportunity to play against better players and socialize, too. With the round robin format, I am guaranteed at least 5 games, usually. If your travelling, those games could be costing you more than $100 per game, so you want to play, because it's fun, and you enjoy it.

Handicap tournaments are generally a let down for everyone, and creates lots of complaining. I'd rather show up and take my chances against whomever shows up. It challenges me. Which is another reason to go in the first place.

Having multiple formats might be helpful for rooms where they have a lot of local players and they are lucky enough to be able to have lots of tournaments. When I was in Boston, World class billiards used to have weekly double elimination tournaments. It was fun, but nobody was travelling for them, and I think it was like $15 entry.

I have travelled to a few tournaments recently that were round robin format, and more often than not, the organizers do such a good job, that, it is not nessesary to hang around and wait for your match(although most like to stay and watch). They have a pretty good plan and idea, when your next match will occur. So if you feel like going home to take a nap or whatever. It is possible. For instance, you just finished playing a match at 10am, you go and ask about your next match. You might be told that you should be back around 2pm, great, I'll go do some sight seeing, or whatever.

What 3C4ever talks about, seems like a VERY local thing. I have never witnessed any game throwing or other behavior like he is describing.
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I totally agree. I've never seen that type of behavior in the local MN and IA tournaments (which there is one this weekend in Iowa btw).

I'm not the best 3C player by a long shot, and I really enjoy the chance for organized competition. I've never seen matches forfeit because of no chance of advancing, and if I'm traveling to play in a tournament, I expect some respect in the matches. Also, having round robin format really helps as I doubt I would travel for a dbl elim format.

-Matt
 
Hello, everyone. I have been extremely busy with many other areas of my life, aside from billiards. I have not participated much on this Forum lately, but I still look at it every few dats or so to see if there's anything interesting to read. Well, I am tired of reading about cues and tips and shafts, etc. They don't interest me. But this subject was quite a bit of fresh air to see!

My comments based on what I have read: I think we need to start having a wide variety of tournament formats. Some examples:

1) Groups of 3 players - 15 point matches - best of 3 sets.
The top finisher from each group of 3 advances. This is how the World Billiard Organization (UMB) does it currently. Each complete match may last 2-3 hours. But almost any decent player can win 2 out of 3 in 15 point matches.

2) Same format with groups of 4 players. Top 2 advance.

3) No groups of players. Just individual matches with Double Elimination.

4) Same as # 3 with Single Elimination.

5) The traditional groups of 6-8 players, round robin. Finals also round-robin.

6) The traditional groups of 6-8 players, round robin. Finals are single or double elimination.



Also, we need a variety of TYPES of tournaments:

1) "Open" Tournaments (no handicap)

2) "B" Tournaments (based on level, no handicap)

3) "C" Tournaments (based on level, no handicap)

4) Handicap Tournaments



All these tournaments formats and tournaments TYPES should be available both locally and around the country on a regular basis. You choose to go to the tournaments you prefer. That will begin to tell us which tournaments will be the most successful. But right now, we don't have enough of them. We need to SATURATE the country with tournaments to find out which ones are best. Right now, many players will play in just about ANY good tournament they can afford to get to (like me)!

By the way, if the players around the country are able to participate in 5-6 USBA Tournaments throughout the year (especially if they are local), then they will not have any problem paying the $50 Membership Dues. The main problem players have with paying the dues is because many of them will only play in 1 USBA Tournament for the whole year. That's because there is NOT ENOUGH OF THEM YET!!!

Please help us and set up some USBA Tournaments locally. I dont care if it's a handicapped event or not. Just have tournaments! Lots of them! Low entry fees are OK. Low prize money is OK. Keep it simple. Play and have fun. It doesn't have to be a big fiasco all the time!
 
Everyone, the weekend is over and I’m back for more discussion on this again. This time is about the other half of the tournament format, and it’s called the FINALSSS.

We all have our point of view and opinion, and that is why we are here to discuss about it. There’s no perfect tournament format but there are better formats, right?

3KUSHN, may be the USBA should have 2/3 different formats depending on the number of players and other things as well. And that is up the board to review and make the changes.

However, here is something that I know everyone of you have to agree with me and I can’t be wrong in this: A round robin of 7/8 players for the Finals is ridiculous, funny and doesn’t make any sense.

Let me explain it so everyone can see why ok!

Go around and ask anybody, men and women, they all will give you the same response. That is, The Final is a match/series of matches between two men or two teams. Go all the way to Africa and Asia and you’ll still get the same response. If you were to tell the people that the final is a round robin with a group of eight people, then they would respond like Huh? What? Where? Who? How? and Which?.... So which match is the actual final match? Confused…Are you going to explain it to them that we don’t play a Final match but we play Final Matches so that each player can play more matches?

A pool player walks into a billiard tournament and get confused with the finals because he sees a group of players play for the finals. So which match is the final? How come everyone is playing for the final? Or There is no final?....When you walk into a tournament of any cue sport and you see the last two players on the table, all eyes are on them, the excitement level is high, you can probably notice that it’s the Final. It’s common sense.

If the USBA wants the players to play five or more matches to get their money’s worth and for the effort of those of you who travel hundreds of miles, please don’t do a long round robin again for the finals. When players got through the first round, they have already played many matches and they are in it for the money. When the first round is through, we need to break it down and somehow get only two players to play the last match, and it’s called the Final.

Oh I see how the USBA do it, they set the matches up so that the best two players meet on the last match, but that’s not the way it supposed to be. Just look around the world and you will notice that there is No sport that feature a round robin in the finals. Only the USBA has that kind of a format for the final, it’s ridiculous.

Here is what the Final should be, A MATCH OR SERIES OF SHORT MATCHES BETWEEN TWO PLAYERS, and that’s it. Make it an exciting match for everyone to watch. Believe me, even the best player in the world will get nervous and sweat because a few mistake can take away the first place. What spectators want to see is a decisive exciting match, they want to see how the players play their game and how they handle themselves in critical moments.

EZE123, I posted an exactly same thread in USBA.net forum and Dennis, the President, says that he’s working on making the changes especially the Finals ,and we take that as a promise ok ;)…

Billiard Lover
 
3C4ever
I totally understand your points and have no problem with instituting different formats to speed things up and raise the importance of each match. You're also right in wanting a Final Championship Match. But I see a problem in one of your suggestions.

If the preliminary rounds are Round Robin then how do you determine who plays in the Championship Match? OK if there's only 2 Flights it can be argued that the winners of each play for the crown. The 2nd place finishers play for 2nd and 3rd and so on but even with just 2 Flights we have the problem with "The Luck of the Draw" determining the 2 Flights. If there's more than 2 Flights then what? My point is and maybe I'm missing something, but if you start off with a Round Robin you need to finish with the Round Robin format.

Now that being said I realize that with any format "The Luck of the Draw" (TLD) always plays a role. The beauty of the Round Robin is that every player plays every other in their Flight, diminishing TLD. The downside as you mention is the long torchurous 3 days and possible game throwing activities.

In my opinion any format should be designed to allow the best player in the tournament to rise to the top in the end. In most cases a Round Robin accomplishes this. With other formats if the matching is done by chance ie drawing names out of a hat, you could have 3 or 4 of the predicted top finishers getting knocked off in the prlims and the championship match being between the predicted 3rd and 4th players. This is not all bad but the final match may be a yawner and the best matches being played in the prelims. This can be somewhat resolved if there was a legitimate way to sede certain players. Right now if we sede players its done on gut feeling. My gut sometimes gives me the wrong answer. I distinctly remember suggesting sedeing some players in a tournament to prevent one flight having all the top players. Well the draw came up exactly this way and the guy I was thinking had little chance of winning, won it all. My gut was wrong. This player played very well and deserved the victory. My point is if we seded players he should have been one of them. I didn't realize he raised his game to that level. So as I suggested before it would be nice to have a legitimate handicap system not a gut system.
 
jimshovak said:
Hello, everyone. I have been extremely busy with many other areas of my life, aside from billiards. I have not participated much on this Forum lately, but I still look at it every few dats or so to see if there's anything interesting to read. Well, I am tired of reading about cues and tips and shafts, etc. They don't interest me. But this subject was quite a bit of fresh air to see!

My comments based on what I have read: I think we need to start having a wide variety of tournament formats. Some examples:

1) Groups of 3 players - 15 point matches - best of 3 sets.
The top finisher from each group of 3 advances. This is how the World Billiard Organization (UMB) does it currently. Each complete match may last 2-3 hours. But almost any decent player can win 2 out of 3 in 15 point matches.
Click to expand...


"I have been extremely busy with many other areas of my life, aside from billiards."
Traitor! you should be spending long days playing billiards tournaments until your back hurts, or you're not a real billiards player

1) Yes, thank you. The Europeans lead the game as ever. If some of the best players in the world are ok with playing it that way, you think we can tell them they need to start playing gigantic round robin sets? 3 sets - you either focus and play and win, or you lose. 3 sets X 3 = 9 hours at most, that's a basic work day. You get good play time, and at the end, you know if you come back the next day or not, so do the spectators. Spend some time on the three matches, play as best you can, don't worry about if you can manage to play for two more days, etc. I think much more interesting for the players and watchers, the more on the line, the more interesting it is.

This is good, too, might not apply to every one, but
Also, we need a variety of TYPES of tournaments:
1) "Open" Tournaments (no handicap)
2) "B" Tournaments (based on level, no handicap)
3) "C" Tournaments (based on level, no handicap)
4) Handicap Tournaments
you can make adjustments depending on the skill level and so forth.
 
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