Aiming Is Really Simple

[dr_dave]

Joe,

I can't think of anything else to add. The only way that "many of your shot go" is if you are doing something different than what Diagram A shows. I and others have suggested several possible explanations, but it sounds like none of them apply to your situation. If you figure out what you are doing different, please let us know. Most of the shots in your diagram just don't go if you truly aim the center of the CB at the desired OB contact point (assuming your visually alignment is consistent, and assuming you aren't "swooping" your stroke).

Regards,
Dave

I do use the contact point to contact point aiming for shots that don’t go. This CB contact point is relative to front dead center of the CB.

The shots described in the diagrams are based on aiming the front dead center (your impact line touching the OB in Figure A) at the contact point as shown in Figure A. It surprises me that many of these shots go when everything and everyone tells me they can't go. I found them in my attempts to learn the limits of using front dead center aiming at the contact point.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

If you have not CHECKED OUT JOE's Web-Site, it is full of great articals, and information.

 

[dr_dave]

Joe, If I understand your terminology, "front dead center" of the cue ball can not physically ever touch the contact point unless it is a straight in shot. The part of the cue ball that will actually make contact with the OB is offset from "front dead center" on all cut shots.
Steve

Excellent clarification Steve.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

:thumbup:Lots of good Information in this THREAD!:thumbup:

Agreed. Joe does have some good stuff on his website. I have links to and quotes from some of his stuff on my website.

Although, I'm not ready to subscribe to his aiming theories yet (or is he "pulling our leg" with this whole thing to make a point about visual perception and aiming???). :sorry:

Regards,
Dave

 

[JoeW]

Joe's version of center ball aiming

Yes that is true Steve. The aim point cannot hit the contact point but the shots go anyway -- at least for me.

One clairification Dave. I don't aim the "center" of the CB I aim the front dead center of the cb. These are different locations.
The front dead center is that point on the cue ball that is nearest to the object ball.

I am not pulling any legs. These are very real findings that I do not understand.

 

[nathandumoulin]

One clairification Dave. I don't aim the "center" of the CB I aim the front dead center of the cb. These are different locations. The front dead center is that point on the cue ball that is nearest to the object ball.

I am not pulling any legs. These are very real findings that I do not understand.

If you attempt a 90 angle cut shot using this method, you'd end up cutting the ball about 30 degrees. To actually cut the ball close to 90, you need to aim to miss the object ball entirely. One quick attempt at this and you should quickly realize that you're not even aiming at "front dead center" like you think you are.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Joe's version of center ball aiming


The front dead center is that point on the cue ball that is nearest to the object ball.

I am not pulling any legs. These are very real findings that I do not understand.

I aim center CB to an "aim point" for all shots...."fractional aiming" of course the aim point is not the contact point...

I use the top and bottom of the cb to find dead center.............my question is.....how (when down on a shot) are you able to see the "front" of the CB?????

I seriously would like to know this since it my have a benefit to the way I aim shots...

 

[JoeW]

The only thing I can add at this point is that I am not selling anything nor am I trying to covert anyone. Heck I don't know if it will work for anyone else. I can only recommend that you give it a try and see what you find. I find it to be highly useful for shots that will go and for estimating cuts on shots that won't go with front center ball aiming.

It has raised my ball pocket ability and confidence. It has substantially increased my ability to add various forms of English, draw, and follow to many shots. Unfortunately I don't know why.

Given that Dave finds it does not work for him I can only speculate that the effort and the amount of time I have spent on this technique may be the undelying basis for my improvement. It sure was worth it in terms of the improvement in my game. A friend who is a solid APA 7 (and usually a better player than his APA rating) now has a difficult time everytime we play. So there are some real world benefits.

I have not ruled out the idea that some form of out of awareness perceptual phenomena has occurred. If so it has to do with the idea that I now have a much better idea for how to establish the necessary lines.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I aim the front dead center of the cb. ... The front dead center is that point on the cue ball that is nearest to the object ball.

To clarify your terminology:

You've said you hit the CB without sidespin (even using Joe Tucker's aim trainer device). Is your stick pointed at the object ball contact point? Is your stick pointed at "front dead center" of the CB?

pj
chgo

 

[JoeW]

Nathan, if you look at the diagrams there is no reference to extreme cut shots. In fact the technique is quite limited in many ways.

BRKNRUN, Over time I have taught myself to be much more aware of the front dead center of the CB. I suppose the answer to your question is that I have learned to find it by stick placement and estimation. The best verbal description I can give is that I attempt to determine the line through the center of the CB and estimate where the CB aim point is located on the front of the CB in my mind.

 

[JoeW]

PJ my stick and the line through the CB to the front of the CB and on to the contact point is one straight line for these studies. I usually begin with the stick below center (often on the table) to help me find the exact center line.

So yes, my stick is pointed at the front dead center of the CB. After several hundred shots I can now move my stick "off line" for the use of various types of spin.

 

[pooltchr]

Nathan, if you look at the diagrams there is no reference to extreme cut shots. In fact the technique is quite limited in many ways.

BRKNRUN, Over time I have taught myself to be much more aware of the front dead center of the CB. I suppose the answer to your question is that I have learned to find it by stick placement and estimation. The best verbal description I can give is that I attempt to determine the line through the center of the CB and estimate where the CB aim point is located on the front of the CB in my mind.

Joe, if this is what you are doing, you are absolutely making some kind of adjustment. If you aim through the middle of the cue ball toward the contact point, imagine that straight line. Now imagine two parallel lines 1 and 1/8 inch on either side going all the way to your target. Now, put a ball at contact, but sitting between those parallel lines. It will not be touching the contact point.

Unless I am missing something in your explanation, I see no possible way to aim through the middle of the cue ball toward the contact point and hit the contact point. Think for a minute of a 1/4 ball hit (30 degree cut shot) In order to hit it correctly, you must aim through the center of the cue ball to the outside edge of the OB. The farther you get from a straight in shot, the greater the visual difference between aim point and contact point..

Steve

 

[JoeW]

You may very well be right Steve. All I know is what I have described. The shot diagrams are as honest as I can make them and I did make each shot three times. Ball placement was alternated and I am not aware of making any adjustments. In fact, I very intentionally did not focus on anything but hitting the contact point and watching to see if the CB ball travelled on a path to the exact point I was aiming. In fact I never look at the pocket as one way of insuring that I am not unintentionally adjusting during the course of one of these studies.

Maybe it is the pool gods. All I can recommend is that you try it by moving the OB in 1/4 diamond increments from a straight in shot and see what you find. Begin with the OB in the middle of the table and with three diamonds between the CB and OB.

 

[12310bch]

Aiming

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.

The circle,Or ball, can be thought of as an infinite number of planes. Where the cue ball and the object ball meet they share the same plane. At that point a line drawn through dead center of the cue ball and the object ball will be perpendicular (90 degrees ) to the shared plane. Always. That is why ghost ball aiming is effective. If a line drawn through the center of the ghost ball and is extended through the object ball to the center of the target pocket the position of the ghost ball is correct. This is where cue ball contact with the object ball should be made from anywhere on the table.

I haven't read all the posts so if this was covered I give my apologies.

 

[JoeW]

While I do not discount what you are saying I also think that there is more going on in the collision of two sphere at slight angles to each other. The CB imparts some small amount of twist to the OB. Cloth resistance may impede throw in a slow rolling shot. The idea that some part of the CB is striking the OB relative to its direction of force may have some bearing on the matter. Then too the curvature of the balls and exactly what is striking where is another matter.

As many others have indicated it is a complicated subject.

 

[themack]

While I do not discount what you are saying I also think that there is more going on in the collision of two sphere at slight angles to each other. The CB imparts some small amount of twist to the OB. Cloth resistance may impede throw in a slow rolling shot. The idea that some part of the CB is striking the OB relative to its direction of force may have some bearing on the matter. Then too the curvature of the balls and exactly what is striking where is another matter.

As many others have indicated it is a complicated subject.

Taking everything you said into consideration about, the twist, resistance, collision, throw, this is why it just comes down to feel. You just know where to hit the ball when you shoot it with what spin, speed, or whatever else you are doing after years of shooting the shots over and over. All this scientific stuff and graphs is kind of a joke. I mean, it's all legit and the science of it, but when it comes down to it, you just know how and where to hit the ball from trial and error.

 

[nathandumoulin]

Nathan, if you look at the diagrams there is no reference to extreme cut shots. In fact the technique is quite limited in many ways.

I realize there were no diagrams for extreme cut shots posted, but that's exactly why I suggested it. An extreme cut will reveal that that you're indeed compensating somehow without realizing it. To say that your system only works on certain shots only proves that there is a flaw somewhere in there. Solving it may allow you to advance your game....or maybe not. Who knows. It was just a suggestion.

 

[dr_dave]

While I do not discount what you are saying I also think that there is more going on in the collision of two sphere at slight angles to each other. The CB imparts some small amount of twist to the OB. Cloth resistance may impede throw in a slow rolling shot. The idea that some part of the CB is striking the OB relative to its direction of force may have some bearing on the matter. Then too the curvature of the balls and exactly what is striking where is another matter.

As many others have indicated it is a complicated subject.

Joe,

I don't think it is that complicated. Throw is very well understood. "OB twist" (I assume you mean "OB turn") is negligible. The cloth has no effect on the amount or direction of throw. The forces and their directions are also well understood. There is no funny business going on with the physics. I could provide links for all of this stuff, but Spidey might get mad at me.

With center-ball hits (with no English), cut-induced throw (CIT) will actually make it tougher to make the shots you describe. The throw will result in even worse undercutting than predicted by the diagrams.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I like your idea of using the center-to-contact-point line as a reference. I think the more references we have the better. But isn't the ghost-ball center a better starting point? There are easy ways to locate it (e.g., see NV 3.2 - Using the cue to help visualize the impact and aiming lines).

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... I ... think that there is more going on in the collision of two sphere at slight angles to each other.

There's nothing complicated about what happens when one sphere strikes another. Everything that happens is well known.

The CB imparts some small amount of twist to the OB.

Let's not use ambiguous terms. The CB imparts a small amount of sidespin and throw to the OB. The amounts of each imparted for various cut angles are very well known.

Cloth resistance may impede throw in a slow rolling shot.

No more than on any other shot. In fact, throw is maximized with a slower shot. This is all well known.

The idea that some part of the CB is striking the OB relative to its direction of force may have some bearing on the matter.

I can't decipher "striking the OB relative to its direction of force".

Then too the curvature of the balls and exactly what is striking where is another matter.

This is known precisely: the CB strikes the OB exactly half the apparent distance from the aim point to the OB's center. I.e., if you aim at the edge of the OB, the CB will contact it exactly halfway (as it appears to you) from the OB's edge to its center.

As many others have indicated it is a complicated subject.

Not nearly as complicated as you're making it.

It seems I have no choice but to inflict math on you (my apologies to everybody). Here's a table that shows the cut angle error for various shots aiming the center of the CB at the intended contact point:



The rightmost column shows the amount of error in inches per foot of OB travel. For an OB that's just 12 inches from the pocket, aiming for a 1/4 ball cut will make it miss the center of the pocket by an inch and a half. That means even if your pocket is 5.25 inches wide (very wide), you'll miss any shot that's more than a foot from the pocket unless it's nearly straight in.

These aren't theoretical errors; they're factual and inescapable. Throw doesn't help; the "curvature of the balls" doesn't help; the slow speed of the shots doesn't help; etc. In fact, all of these things only make matters worse (by increasing throw).

There's only one reasonable conclusion: you're compensating, despite your awareness of that possibility and your efforts to avoid it. Imagine how easy it is to unconsciously compensate for system aimers who want their system to work and aren't trying to avoid compensating.

pj
chgo

 

[nathandumoulin]

lol, I love how the title of this thread is "Aiming is really simple".