Aiming Secrets of the Pros

[Mungtor]

Mungtor...still on the outside looking in. Otherwise, you seem to be an OK guy.

I'm just on the outside looking around. There's a lot more room outside the asylum.

Seriously tho, I'm not busting on anybody for not posting them. I was just listing the reasons that we're not going to see them here. #1 seems to be the most used one, and I respect that after seeing how bad the descriptions can be mangled.

Aiming doesn't seem to be a hard part of the game for me. If Hal has a system to make me stop curling my wrist on follow through, then I'll really be interested.

 

[drivermaker]

Aiming doesn't seem to be a hard part of the game for me. If Hal has a system to make me stop curling my wrist on follow through, then I'll really be interested.

I don't think Hal has a system for that, but there's a training device that's used in golf which is an half glove with a piece of metal in the back that extends from the back of the hand and across the wrist to stop any and all bending of the wrist in the golf swing. It REALLY keeps it from moving and maintains rigidity. You might want to see if you can find one for practice on one of the golf training device websites.

 

[Bob Jewett]

There ya all go.

Here is something I posted in RSB when systems were being discussed, and I think it very clearly applies to the above. http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=geometrians Maybe we should have a poll on what the cut angle is for a half-ball hit. Also, some may find it interesting that you have to hit the object ball about 30% full to get a 45-degree cut. A plot of fullness vs. cut angle is available at http://www.sfbilliards.com/fract.pdf

Bob

 

[Celtic]

I think you're right, most people think half ball hits produce 45 degree cuts. I've even heard some pretty good players say so. Those with questioning minds though, can find through simple experimentation that it ain't so. Sometimes it amazes me what people will assume is fact (the supposed truth of the 45 degree cut with a half ball hit) when simple observation will discount that "fact."

I think it's also a pretty common misconception for people to think the actual playing surface is a 2:1 ratio.

-djb

Ya see thats why I hate aiming systems, especially the math ones. Considering the 0 degree cut is the straight shot aiming at the center of the ball, the 90 degree cut is the aiming center 1/2 ball off the boject ball, math states it should be aiming center at the edge of the ball to get the 45 degree cut, half of 90 being 45 and all. But thats not the way I shoot, I shoot at where I know I have to hit the ball, and really I dont know if that spot is 45 degrees or not, set up the shot and I will shoot it in, but ask me to explain how I did or what angle I shot and I am lost. Pool is not a game of math, Steve Erkle on Family Matters shooting pool with a protractor and a tape measure might make funny TV, but noone in their right mind would ever try to shoot pool that way and my money is going to be against the guy with the gimmicks.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Ya see thats why I hate aiming systems, especially the math ones. Considering the 0 degree cut is the straight shot aiming at the center of the ball, the 90 degree cut is the aiming center 1/2 ball off the boject ball, math states it should be aiming center at the edge of the ball to get the 45 degree cut, half of 90 being 45 and all. ...

That's not what math says at all. Not even close. You may want to look at that graph I mentioned previously. It involves sines of angles and such, so it may be a little mysterious at first if you have never had trig or geometry. It tells you what math says about the fullness of hit required for each angle of cut.

I know a player who has the angles (like in that graph) memorized for each 1/64th of fullness. He also knows the angles from each diamond (and probably half diamond) to every other diamond. He can look at a cut shot and calculate the angles of both balls, and get the angle of the cut and know more or less precisely how much of the ball to hit. That's too much math for me, at least when I'm trying to play.

See the ball, shoot the ball, make the ball, be happy.

 

[Rod]

That's not what math says at all. Not even close. You may want to look at that graph I mentioned previously. It involves sines of angles and such, so it may be a little mysterious at first if you have never had trig or geometry. It tells you what math says about the fullness of hit required for each angle of cut.

I know a player who has the angles (like in that graph) memorized for each 1/64th of fullness. He also knows the angles from each diamond (and probably half diamond) to every other diamond. He can look at a cut shot and calculate the angles of both balls, and get the angle of the cut and know more or less precisely how much of the ball to hit. That's too much math for me, at least when I'm trying to play.

See the ball, shoot the ball, make the ball, be happy.

Is this fellow a slow player? More important is his stroke true enough to hit 1/64ths? I've always thought carpenters and no doubt engineers etc. should recognize an appx angle. While that might be true, knowing what a 1/2 ball - 1/4 ball etc. produces can fly over their head.

I know an autistic fellow. He draws perfect lines and angles on table diagrams and even carried out to an imaginery table at times. He has hundreds or maybe even thousands by now. Actually I think he sells them. He is quite the artist but doesn't play pool very well. I heard he can play caroms quite well.

Rod

 

[azhousepro]

How did this whole thread get so unbelievably off topic? There are many different aiming methods and some people can't even tell you how they aim.

My first thought was to delete this whole thread because of the name-calling, but I think there are valuable bits of info here (thank you Mr Jewett).

Can we possibly get back to talking about aiming methods and stop attacking each other for having a different opinion?

Mike

 

[cut shot]

Tap,tap,tap. Right enough AzHousePro! I agree!

How did this whole thread get so unbelievably off topic? There are many different aiming methods and some people can't even tell you how they aim.

My first thought was to delete this whole thread because of the name-calling, but I think there are valuable bits of info here (thank you Mr Jewett).

Can we possibly get back to talking about aiming methods and stop attacking each other for having a different opinion?

Mike

 

[LastTwo]

So this is one of Hal's magical aiming systems? It must really be magic to take a game which involves an INFINITE number of cut angles and simplify it to just three....

-djb <-- Thinks maybe straight-in shots should be the 4th angle

Doomcue, Hal's system is not phony. I know a couple of very good players who swear by it. Instead of being a skeptic, why don't you get in contact with Hal and find out for yourself? Here we have a guy who has devoted his whole life to the game, and helping others learn the game, and you decide to make him look bad when you know nothing about what he teaches. Why not go and try it before making a guy look bad?

 

[Jon]

Doomcue, Hal's system is not phony. I know a couple of very good players who swear by it. Instead of being a skeptic, why don't you get in contact with Hal and find out for yourself? Here we have a guy who has devoted his whole life to the game, and helping others learn the game, and you decide to make him look bad when you know nothing about what he teaches. Why not go and try it before making a guy look bad?

Tap Tap Tap, LastTwo, very well said.

Thanks,

Jon

 

[DoomCue]

Doomcue, Hal's system is not phony. I know a couple of very good players who swear by it. Instead of being a skeptic, why don't you get in contact with Hal and find out for yourself? Here we have a guy who has devoted his whole life to the game, and helping others learn the game, and you decide to make him look bad when you know nothing about what he teaches. Why not go and try it before making a guy look bad?

I simply pointed out the common sense fact that pool is not a game of three angles. If you interpret that as "making a guy look bad," so be it.

-djb

 

[Mungtor]

I simply pointed out the common sense fact that pool is not a game of three angles. If you interpret that as "making a guy look bad," so be it.

I'm pretty sure that Hal has never claimed that it is a game of 3 angles. I think that he uses the 3 angles because there are easy to understand reference points for them in terms of ball alignment for particular shots. It has always been said that Hal has different systems for different situations. If this system breaks down on cuts of more than 75 degrees, he'll probably tell you how to recognize that, and then give you a system to help.

I'm also going to go way out on a limb and guess that most of the stuff that has been posted by (or attributed to Hal) with respect to angles on a pool table has been to get people recognize the angles. Knowing that a half-ball hit gives you a 30 degree cut doesn't help if you can't recognize what 30 degrees looks like on the table.

So, you look at a line from a ball to the pocket. Intersect that with the line from CB to OB. Approximate the angle, and it gives you a starting ball fraction to work from. Pockets are 2x wider than a ball, so it gives you some fudge factor immediately. After that, I don't know how he advocates adjusting to an intermediate angle. BHE is one possibility (not with a Predator, tho ). Maybe 35 degrees is 1/2 ball plus 1 tip of BHE.

Anyway, that's just wild-ass guessing. But the point is that nobody, including Hal, really believes that 3 angles make all shots. But 3 convenient, easy references may help people who have difficulty aiming to start with.

 

[drivermaker]

I'm pretty sure that Hal has never claimed that it is a game of 3 angles. I think that he uses the 3 angles because there are easy to understand reference points for them in terms of ball alignment for particular shots. It has always been said that Hal has different systems for different situations. If this system breaks down on cuts of more than 75 degrees, he'll probably tell you how to recognize that, and then give you a system to help.

I'm also going to go way out on a limb and guess that most of the stuff that has been posted by (or attributed to Hal) with respect to angles on a pool table has been to get people recognize the angles. Knowing that a half-ball hit gives you a 30 degree cut doesn't help if you can't recognize what 30 degrees looks like on the table.

So, you look at a line from a ball to the pocket. Intersect that with the line from CB to OB. Approximate the angle, and it gives you a starting ball fraction to work from. Pockets are 2x wider than a ball, so it gives you some fudge factor immediately. After that, I don't know how he advocates adjusting to an intermediate angle. BHE is one possibility (not with a Predator, tho ). Maybe 35 degrees is 1/2 ball plus 1 tip of BHE.

Anyway, that's just wild-ass guessing. But the point is that nobody, including Hal, really believes that 3 angles make all shots. But 3 convenient, easy references may help people who have difficulty aiming to start with.

Not a bad assessment from a non-member of the sect. I might even have to put a good word in for you regarding induction. Just remember, I'm in charge of the hazing committee. But do you know what 1 1/2 tips of BHE does along with a pivot?

BTW...click onto these sites to view the gadgets for golf that I was referring to for your wrist roll problem. You might want to get one or the other, or it might give you some ideas to jury rig something on your own.

http://www.dwquailgolf.com/training/tac_tic_wrist.html

http://www.dwquailgolf.com/training/dr_gary_wiren_key.html

Hope it helps......

 

[Mungtor]

Not a bad assessment from a non-member of the sect. I might even have to put a good word in for you regarding induction. Just remember, I'm in charge of the hazing committee. But do you know what 1 1/2 tips of BHE does along with a pivot?

Umm.. it completely cancels out swerve and deflection allowing you to use english for position and not adjust your aim point. (good guess, no?)

BTW...click onto these sites to view the gadgets for golf that I was referring to for your wrist roll problem. You might want to get one or the other, or it might give you some ideas to jury rig something on your own.

http://www.dwquailgolf.com/training/tac_tic_wrist.html

http://www.dwquailgolf.com/training/dr_gary_wiren_key.html

Hope it helps......

Thanks for the links. The first doesn't look like it will help much because my wrist curls inwards instead of breaking backwards. The second looks like it could be what I need tho. Thanks again!

 

[drivermaker]

Umm.. it completely cancels out swerve and deflection allowing you to use english for position and not adjust your aim point. (good guess, no?)



Thanks for the links. The first doesn't look like it will help much because my wrist curls inwards instead of breaking backwards. The second looks like it could be what I need tho. Thanks again!

Very good guess...yes. (you may be getting closer to induction)

I'll bet it would work if you put it on upside down...whaddaya think?

 

[Mungtor]

Very good guess...yes. (you may be getting closer to induction)

I'll bet it would work if you put it on upside down...whaddaya think?

Maybe, but I think it would have to go on the inside of my wrist to bend in the correct direction. Unless it clicks in both directions. I'll send them an e-mail and see what they say.

 

[drivermaker]

Maybe, but I think it would have to go on the inside of my wrist to bend in the correct direction. Unless it clicks in both directions. I'll send them an e-mail and see what they say.

There's always another option or two...why don't you just curl your wrist under about as far as it will go so that you can't roll it any more on your stroke. You'll just preset it like Jeremy Jones or Monica Webb and just live with it.

The other option would be to consciously flip your wrist UP during practice just to try to break yourself of the habit the other way. Obviously, this isn't as beneficial as no movement, but a drill to train the brain differently. Or preset in a concave fashion like KM.

I've found that in curling your wrist under during the stroke that it changes the path of the cue close to impact and at impact. If you're a right handed player, it actually seems to make cuts to the left easier. You can almost aim for a full ball hit on a fairly shallow cut and it'll get you at the right position automatically. If you aim normally, you'll overcut. However, cuts to the right have to be aimed out a little more, otherwise you'll undercut the OB. And all of this will happen if you have the same amount of force and wrist curl on each shot, otherwise........miss and inconsistency, which you must be experiencing.