Aiming Systems • NAYSAYERS • YEASAYERS

[Roger Long]

Please, let's stop this silly arguing, and have a self-imposed, temporary moratorium on aiming threads to give us all a chance to breathe a little easier.

I don't think that will ever happen here, Bob. Apparently, it's the arguing that is most important to these people. I think it may have something to do with the typical pool player's mentality that views every "discussion" as being the same as a pool match, and there can be only one winner.

Roger

 

[Pushout]

Ain't that the truth, Roger!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Banks]

Joey,

You may not have a "spin degree" but you do a fair amount of spinning yourself on this forum. I find it remarkable that you can chastise the naysayers and turn a blind eye to the yeasayers who are commiting the exact same offenses.

Since you brought up Patrick Johnson's offenses, we have a prominent poster here who has OCD and ADD who is currently getting away with name-calling, ad hominem attacks and besmirching fellow posters good names.

As there is a lot of blame to go around, let's be consistent here. For the benefit of this forum, more moderating may help bring this acrimony to an end.

He's been doing that for years. I'm guessing he reverts to the old childhood idea that he can keep poking away until you snap on him, then he gets all bent out of shape and cries about it. He goes on and on, pushing CTE as much as possible.. look for him on potty-training sites.

I knew the entire motive behind this thread was nothing more than spare time and some extra tissues.. please clean your keyboards for the others after you're done.

You're a hell of an antagonist, but you know that already. Good for you. You sit there saying how you don't hate anybody and all that crap, but then you piss people off until they tell you (fill in the blank) and then you cry foul. Get over yourself.

That goes for you other constant false preachers, sitting there telling "30,000" how you're so right. I'm sure they wait with baited breath for the responses from all 5 of you, every single post.

"Aiming" systems - good for some, not good for others. Don't really care.

And if you think I'm biased, I think Duckie's headed bill-first into a brick wall, especially with his own thread.

At least some things never change.. Joey acting like a self-appointed saint trying to market CTE and PocketPoint trolling with stupid ideas. Where's that dude that's all crying about BCA kicking him out? At least he's straight-forward about something, even if he is completely wrong.

 

[Masayoshi]

That's not correct. Lou has stated repeatedly (and recently stood by his statement) that CTE is caca ("with all of that pivoting nonsense") and Stan's DVD "purposely dooms his students to failure."

If "yaysayers" like myself say nasty things, it's because of Lou's ignoramus comments.

What perpetuates "the hate" and the wearing out of patience, is guys like you who have no understanding of what the situation is, what's been said, what so-and-so's beliefs are and so forth--- and then make false statements like the one above further perpetuating the BS.

I disagree that the claims are unsubstantiated. Claims are unsubstantiated based on our history of diagramming it on 2D Wei Table diagrams. Perspective is a key ingredient to making CTE work and that's never been properly figured. If the ball goes each and every time, the math is correct.

While guys like Dr. Dave start from the front and work their way back (based on their own understanding, which can be flawed) and say it's impossible, I start from the back (based on my understanding that the shot goes center-hole) and ask what can be missing or overlooked. To this day, neither Dr. Dave nor Lou have ever received private lessons from Stan or Hal. Lou spent 1 day on the DVD before writing a scathing review. 1 day. I took this stuff in for 6 months before commenting on any of it.

As Lou loves to point out, I have all variations of CTE diagrammed in AutoCad and have found different shots to have similar offsets from the CTEL. I'm yet to recalculate with perspectives figured in because quite frankly --- it's a LOT of time and there's no motivation to do so. I have about 40 or so pages complete and it's just sitting on my computer.

There's no motivation because 1) I understand it and 2) there are so many disgusting people on here that have fun knocking instructors and good people, it's simply not worth the effort and finally 3) I honestly feel any further good/hard work invested into this discussion will only be met with further knocking, hateful BS.

At one time there was a poll to move all aiming discussions into a sub forum and I recall I voted no. Now, however, I think it's the move and the moderators should ban all knocking, trouble-making forum members who troll to elicit lambasting responses and then point the finger at the tiger they just poked through the cage.

That way, the other 30000 forum members who want to have honest and clear dialog CAN and those who honestly want to learn the information....CAN....without the nonstop insults from the forum megalomaniacs.

Dave

I believe Lou has said several times that CTE might work for some. Just because he thinks its caca doesn't mean that he thinks its completely worthless to everyone. I see no error in my post.

Also, many nasty comments have been posted about Dr. Dave and Roger Long as well both of which have been nothing but cordial in ALL of the CTE threads. So, no, Yeasayer badmouthing is not just in retaliation of Lou's comments.

Wait, do you understand the word unsubstantiated?

un·sub·stan·ti·at·ed
   [uhn-suhb-stan-shee-ey-tid] Show IPA
adjective
1.
not substantiated; unproved or unverified: unsubstantiated allegations.

Your claims as to the mathematical accuracy of CTE have not been proven, verified or substantiated. Until you do so, which you admit that you have not, they will remain unsubstantiated. If you don't have the will to substantiate your claims, don't argue against people calling them unsubstantiated (unless you like being wrong).

The balls going in every time is not an indicator that the math is correct. Fractional aiming systems also can make the ball go in every time, but they are not mathematically correct, just estimations. Your subconscious and the fact that the pockets accept balls that are hit less than perfect fills in the rest.

Also, I did not put one insult in any of my posts, you might take unsubstantiated as an insult, but if you take the truth as an insult, you are more than likely wrong.

 

[The Chinchilla]

The balls going in every time is not an indicator that the math is correct. Fractional aiming systems also can make the ball go in every time, but they are not mathematically correct, just estimations. Your subconscious and the fact that the pockets accept balls that are hit less than perfect fills in the rest.

Also, I did not put one insult in any of my posts, you might take unsubstantiated as an insult, but if you take the truth as an insult, you are more than likely wrong.

Right, whistling then clicking your heals together 3 times could make balls go in for you too, but we cant really teach it as a system unless there is something there to back it up.

 

[cookie man]

Right, whistling then clicking your heals together 3 times could make balls go in for you too, but we cant really teach it as a system unless there is something there to back it up.

But it is being taught every day by several instructors.

 

[Wolven]

:grin: now, that's funny :grin:

 

[JoeyA]

Right, whistling then clicking your heels together 3 times could make balls go in for you too, but we cant really teach it as a system unless there is something there to back it up.

Can you post a link to this aiming system? I don't care if there is something to back it up or not. It sounds like a winner.:thumbup2:

 

[walrus_3d]

Right, whistling then clicking your heals together 3 times could make balls go in for you too, but we cant really teach it as a system unless there is something there to back it up.

No fair making it funny right when I was about to resume the arguments!

I don't really want an argument, I just wanted to clarify something. Value statements vs preference statements. Value statements are actually about the item in question. Preference statements are about how I feel about the item in question. For instance, Cinnamon Topped Eclairs (CTE).

If I don't like cinnamon topped eclairs, I can say "I don't like them" and that's a preference statement. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm just saying they're not for me. You can like them and that doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, all the better if you like them and I don't, 'cause that means we won't fight over the last one.

Value statements are where we get into trouble on the forums. If I say cinnamon topped eclairs taste like ca-ca, I'm making a statement about CTE itself, not about how I feel about CTE. If I say I won't eat them because they taste bad, that's not the same thing as I won't eat them because I don't like the way they taste. Do you see the difference?

So, if you don't like something, say you don't like it. Don't say it's bad in and of itself. Just say it's not for you. It's all in the way we phrase things. It's the same reason advertisers have to say certain medications may work instead of saying they will work.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I don't think that will ever happen here, Bob. Apparently, it's the arguing that is most important to these people. I think it may have something to do with the typical pool player's mentality that views every "discussion" as being the same as a pool match, and there can be only one winner.

Roger

Well put Roger...I'm sure the entire Nay-Yeasayer community, will be thrilled to know, that John Barton and I have buried the hatchet, and will no longer be trading insults. I will miss pulling his chain, and he will miss his favorite no-playing, never was, has been.

I believe, the whole thrust of aiming system threads, is to make grown men, act like school yard bullies and/or scaredy cat wimps. There's no, zip, nada, zero, middle ground, as you/we have all proven, in about a zillion, oft times heated, words.

I myself believe, that it must be quite frustrating to those who wish to try and reduce, a very demanding, skillful game, to mathematical, geometric, and engineering principles...Well, they'll just have to prove it to me.

I am also convinced, that if the amatuer player, or a very skilled pro believes they they can do that, and overcome all realistic chances of 'ever' missing again, I have to say.... more power to them. I also realize, have no right to tell them they are, (to borrow the "head naysayers" favorite phrase) 'full of ca-ca'. wrong. Any more than I can tell Nolan Ryan, how to throw strikes, or Kobe Bryant, how to make a ball go through the hoop..

So carry on (and on, and on, and on) until someone comes up with a way to tell the other 'just what the hell either one of you are talking about'...WITHOUT beating each other to death with your keyboards. SuperDuck is turning in his badge..



And remember, there are worse ailments then OCD and ADD..

ANATIDEAPHOBIA...The fear that somehow, somewhere, a duck is always watching you !!

 

[lee brett]

joey, what would you call the aiming system i use and showed you

 

[lfigueroa]

The comment was made to illustrate that some of you have an impossibly high standard that cannot be met. If your opinion is that Willie Mosconi himself couldn't convince you of something pool related then what chance do I, Stan Shuffett, or anyone else have?

To turn your phrase, with that conviction that not even Willie would be able to get your attention any review of Stan's DVD that you were going to do was doomed to negativity before you opened it.

And you don't speak your opinion in such a way that it is intended to be tossed in the salad and consumed by everyone so that the readers can consider it. You make your opinion known in a needling and accusatory fashion that is designed to provoke a response from "the other side". I get it that for you it's just good old fashioned pool-room barking. But even in the pool room everyone knows when lines are crossed and it goes from barking to serious insults designed to instigate.

You and I go way back on this. Remember what you told me after I came on RSB talking about meeting Hal and learning his systems? All the insults about "the force" and tin foil hats and religion? That was 9 YEARS ago.

And you have been at it ever since. Your opinion is noted. It is perfectly clear at this point that you will not be using, trying or believing in any aiming system derived from anything Hal Houle taught. So is there any possible way that you can just leave the people be who do want to discuss it?

Just let the aiming thread open up and die of it's own accord. Watch and see. Make a pact to yourself to let an aiming thread go for three days before you comment. If you and the other diehard naysayers would do that then I predict that by day three the thread is not even on page two.

Why does any standard need to be met?

Here, I'll tell you why: you are not satisfied just hearing the opinions of others, nor just providing yours. You don’t want to just “discuss it.” You appear to have this need to proselytize about these systems. And that’s the problem with you and Joey and Spider -- you want converts, while many of the rest of are willing to just talk about it but refuse to drink the Kool-Aid and that’s why things spin on forever.

And no: it was after, not before viewing the DVD, that I said Willie couldn’t convince me.

As to how I post, you, and others need to own your negativity. Don’t blame me if you don’t like what I post or how I post it: respond and move on, or ignore me, just like I do in a few cases. I am "owning" Joey and Spider (and a couple of their toadies -- you know who you are by ignoring them. You, I am still trying to engage in intelligent dialogue with because, as you say we, “go way back on this.” And because we have that history I feel that somehow we can still communicate. Joey, with his self-righteous blue ink tirades is no longer worthy of wasting my time with. He long ago became that which he rails against. Same for Spider with his endless string of frat boy jpegs and low brow digs.

Lastly, you are wrong: for me, none of this has crossed the good-natured barking and hazing of the pool hall. If it has for you, then you need to put me on Ignore.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

He's been doing that for years. I'm guessing he reverts to the old childhood idea that he can keep poking away until you snap on him, then he gets all bent out of shape and cries about it. He goes on and on, pushing CTE as much as possible.. look for him on potty-training sites.

I knew the entire motive behind this thread was nothing more than spare time and some extra tissues.. please clean your keyboards for the others after you're done.

You're a hell of an antagonist, but you know that already. Good for you. You sit there saying how you don't hate anybody and all that crap, but then you piss people off until they tell you (fill in the blank) and then you cry foul. Get over yourself.

That goes for you other constant false preachers, sitting there telling "30,000" how you're so right. I'm sure they wait with baited breath for the responses from all 5 of you, every single post.

"Aiming" systems - good for some, not good for others. Don't really care.

And if you think I'm biased, I think Duckie's headed bill-first into a brick wall, especially with his own thread.

At least some things never change.. Joey acting like a self-appointed saint trying to market CTE and PocketPoint trolling with stupid ideas. Where's that dude that's all crying about BCA kicking him out? At least he's straight-forward about something, even if he is completely wrong.

Bless you, Banks.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I believe Lou I believe has said several times that CTE might work for some. Just because he thinks its caca doesn't mean that he thinks its completely worthless to everyone. I see no error in my post.

Also, many nasty comments have been posted about Dr. Dave and Roger Long as well both of which have been nothing but cordial in ALL of the CTE threads. So, no, Yeasayer badmouthing is not just in retaliation of Lou's comments.

Wait, do you understand the word unsubstantiated?

un·sub·stan·ti·at·ed
   [uhn-suhb-stan-shee-ey-tid] Show IPA
adjective
1.
not substantiated; unproved or unverified: unsubstantiated allegations.

Your claims as to the mathematical accuracy of CTE have not been proven, verified or substantiated. Until you do so, which you admit that you have not, they will remain unsubstantiated. If you don't have the will to substantiate your claims, don't argue against people calling them unsubstantiated (unless you like being wrong).

The balls going in every time is not an indicator that the math is correct. Fractional aiming systems also can make the ball go in every time, but they are not mathematically correct, just estimations. Your subconscious and the fact that the pockets accept balls that are hit less than perfect fills in the rest.

Also, I did not put one insult in any of my posts, you might take unsubstantiated as an insult, but if you take the truth as an insult, you are more than likely wrong.

And also a heart felt thanks to you, Masayoshi.

I have been accuse of so much bs lately it is good to know that some out there can still see what's really going on. You've repeatedly stepped up to keep the record straight. I appreciate it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[The Renfro]

Posted this from a different thread.... In my case a 90% accurate system trumps natural aiming.. Many shots are rote now and I can use natural sight pictures... In the zone the system seems unneeded......


The human eye is a wonderful thing... The problem for some of us is that we have 2 of them and for some reason or other they do not work together.. This causes perception and depth issues.... This is one reason I chase the pot of gold at the end of the system rainbow.

Everyone doesn't see the same thing... While most can pick out a spot on the ball don't assume everyone can.... Based on this fact alone every time someone jumps up and bashes any aiming system I want to rail against the utter lack of common sense... For some people systems make up for visual deficits... If you aren't one of those people then sit there be happy and quit flinging poo. If you want to recommend a better/different system that's fine and that is helpful...

I personally can aim at the edge or the center of the ball accurately... I use a pivot system on most shots similar to CTE that I evolved into... It gives me a starting sight picture I understand and based on the pivot point and my base cue position goes a long way towards compensating for english.........

That is mainly the whole point of the system... Creating a visual picture that feeds valid info into our gray matter so we can make whatever adjustments required to put the ball into the hole.........

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

You and I go way back on this. Remember what you told me after I came on RSB talking about meeting Hal and learning his systems? All the insults about "the force" and tin foil hats and religion? That was 9 YEARS ago.

And you have been at it ever since. Your opinion is noted.

Just let the aiming thread open up and die of it's own accord. Watch and see. Make a pact to yourself to let an aiming thread go for three days before you comment. If you and the other diehard naysayers would do that then I predict that by day three the thread is not even on page two.

It's amazing that you've wasted 9 years of your life arguing with Lou and others over a silly aiming system. Please tell me you're not a basket case.

Why don't you follow your own suggestion and let this and any other aiming thread go for three days before you comment. If you and the other diehard yeasayers would do that then I predict that by day three the thread is not even on page two.

 

[blah blah]

Please, let's stop this silly arguing, and have a self-imposed, temporary moratorium on aiming threads to give us all a chance to breathe a little easier.

Surely there are other things worth discussing....

agreed.......

 

[JoeyA]

Haters.................

Why does any standard need to be met?

Here, I'll tell you why: you are not satisfied just hearing the opinions of others, nor just providing yours. You don’t want to just “discuss it.” You appear to have this need to proselytize about these systems. And that’s the problem with you and Joey and Spider -- you want converts, while many of the rest of are willing to just talk about it but refuse to drink the Kool-Aid and that’s why things spin on forever.

And no: it was after, not before viewing the DVD, that I said Willie couldn’t convince me.

As to how I post, you, and others need to own your negativity. Don’t blame me if you don’t like what I post or how I post it: respond and move on, or ignore me, just like I do in a few cases. I am "owning" Joey and Spider (and a couple of their toadies -- you know who you are by ignoring them. You, I am still trying to engage in intelligent dialogue with because, as you say we, “go way back on this.” And because we have that history I feel that somehow we can still communicate. Joey, with his self-righteous blue ink tirades is no longer worthy of wasting my time with. He long ago became that which he rails against. Same for Spider with his endless string of frat boy jpegs and low brow digs.

Lastly, you are wrong: for me, none of this has crossed the good-natured barking and hazing of the pool hall. If it has for you, then you need to put me on Ignore.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, now you come with the name-calling all over again. Your tolerance for mean-spirited comments knows no end.

You can't help yourself can you?. In that regard, you're no different than PJ. It's really sad. You could have turned over a new leaf.

I guess you will be strutting like a rooster when this thread is taken down by the moderators. Oh well, I guess that's what HATERS DO. :ignore:

 

[Mikjary]

lol, I can only guess, since I have Joey, Spider, and a couple of the others on Ignore. It's nice!

Lou Figueroa
hyperbole |hīˈpərbəlē|
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

If you have Joey on ignore, how did you read his first post? It is his thread, after all. :scratchhead:

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

They might not be nice about it all the time, I may not care for some of their personalities much. I never thought I'd say it, but I even miss reading pj's posts. I admit I am a shallow person, guilty of enjoying the drama. Right or wrong, there are alot of great posters here with tons of experience and knowledge. Both sides post so well, sometimes I even learn new words! Todays word of the day is hyperbole....thanks Joey!

I was surprised to hear PJ got the hammer. I noticed an effort on his part to keep his posts more objective even though some were clearly pushing his buttons. I enjoyed discussing things with him and trying to get his opinions without the sarcasm added in. I liked the new and improved PJ.:smile:

Best,
Mike