Aiming Systems • NAYSAYERS • YEASAYERS

[JoeyA]

Why don't we simply have a vote. Then we can see how many people actually have tried the systems and agree/disagree with them based on experience.

I feel that those who have not tried them are likely to be either on the fence or opposed and those that have tried them are more likely to be for them. So let's simply have a show of hands virtually and show where you stand.

John Barton - Yeasayer

John, this thread isn't about seeing who's on which side. I don't mind other people not being on my side. It's the needless needling, the constant belittling of others that I despise.

As one of the other posters remarked, maybe the moderators just have to kick it up a notch. For the most part, I think the moderators do a good job riding heard on the forums.

I think if the Yeasayers were to eliminate the hyperbole from their posts, it wouldn't bother the Naysayers as much as it seems to bother them. I really don't care if something bothers another poster or not, unless it is someone violating the forum rules. In that case, the violation of the rules of the forum should be reported and anyone can do it. There's a little box that you can click on to report a post but you know about that. Maybe some others don't.

Anyway, I'm not interested in knowing if any particular Naysayer put in quality time trying to learn any aiming system. That's their business, but they don't have any right to tell other posters that they're wasting their time learning a particular aiming system, or ridiculing a person, by calling them childish names or luring them into arguments, just to earn some brownie points from their crew or just to watch someone go off and get the thread closed.

Anyway, I say no votes. Voting is not going to do cause more separation and harm than good.

 

[JoeyA]

No such thing as a Silver Bullet, at least in pool.

It is really simple, its either for you or not, whatever works for you is what really matters and if its not working for you then try something else.

I agree that each person should find out what works for them and they shouldn't be RIDICULED by anyone for using it.

Sometimes, I think some people are actually content with their level of play and they don't want to learn anything else for various reasons.

For others, they are always serching for a little lagniappe.

 

[walrus_3d]

You needed to follow your on advice....you are trolling right now.

Maybe I just don't understand what trolling is.

He's asking people to talk about the facts of the systems, reasonably, without a) dismissing their opinions out of hand, or b) saying rude or mean things about the people involved.

I tend to fall into the yeasayers group because every time I find a thread that actually discusses the content of the system, I learn a new method for seeing, sighting, aiming, or shooting. I can't tell you how often I've actually found a thread that discusses the content of a system, though. Most of them get bogged down in arguments and idiocies in both directions and from both sides. Or from all sides, depending on how many systems we're discussing at the time.

He's saying this should be a forum where everyone can express their opinion, and differing opinions should be allowed to exist within the same thread.

 

[Pushout]

Maybe I just don't understand what trolling is.

duckie doesn't either and he's doing it.

 

[BasementDweller]

Alright, maybe I was a bit harsh in my initial response to this thread. In the spirit of goodwill and cooperation I will try to lighten up.

There is one more thing that I would like to add to all this talk about the aiming system threads. Really it's much bigger than just aiming. This relates to threads about individual professional players and their matches, instructors, and all the products that come out. The thing that I have noticed is that the pool world is a fairly tight nit group and it seems like there isn't a person in the pool world that isn't known DIRECTLY by someone on this forum.

On the one hand, this is REALLY cool. Because of this we can get first hand reports about people, places, and all kinds of products. But on the other hand, this causes a lot of animosity when someone appears to attack one of these known personality's products or their game. I can't imagine this would ever happen on say - a golf forum. Do you think someone could start a thread about Tiger Woods and all of a sudden a good friend of his would go on there and get upset about the topic of conversation? I don't think this would ever happen.

So, for the few of you on this site that are really connected to all the players, instructors, and industry insiders keep in mind that the other 95% of us are not. So, don't take is so personally when something about one of these special people is questioned. Whenever these sorts of folks are mentioned in a thread it's like a red flag goes off and some of you are very quick to come riding in with the cavalry to defend their great honor.

That's the way this industry outsider sees it anyway.

 

[mohrt]

Do you think someone could start a thread about Tiger Woods and all of a sudden a good friend of his would go on there and get upset about the topic of conversation?

Tell Tiger I've got this new sure-fire aiming system for him, guaranteed improvement.

 

[Mikjary]

Tell Tiger I've got this new sure-fire aiming system for him, guaranteed improvement.

If you get Tiger (I'm on a first name basis with him,too) to try that and endorse it, WE'LL never have to work another day in our lives, partner!:smile:

Best,
Mike
I'm really not trolling this thread

 

[asmith74]

Believe or disbelieve, it's open for discussion. But once you’ve found something that works for YOU…go with it. And run racks!! :thumbup:

 

[Maniac]

I agree that each person should find out what works for them and they shouldn't be RIDICULED by anyone for using it.

Joey,

I got ridiculed at league play tonight for wearing my little chalk pouch :frown:. No matter where you go or what you do, there's always gonna be somebody with a snide comment to make if you're doing something that they wouldn't be caught dead doing!!!

Maniac (ain't lookin' around for the chalk ever again :thumbup

 

[Masayoshi]

I think if the Yeasayers were to eliminate the hyperbole from their posts, it wouldn't bother the Naysayers as much as it seems to bother them. I really don't care if something bothers another poster or not, unless it is someone violating the forum rules. In that case, the violation of the rules of the forum should be reported and anyone can do it. There's a little box that you can click on to report a post but you know about that. Maybe some others don't.

95% of the Naysayers would become Yeasayers if this were to happen. Its the unsubstantiated claims that we are against, not the aiming system itself.

 

[JB Cases]

95% of the Naysayers would become Yeasayers if this were to happen. Its the unsubstantiated claims that we are against, not the aiming system itself.

From my point of view even when the claims are backed up with evidence then it's almost always thrown out or disqualified with a bunch of personal slurs thrown in.

I mean Lou even said that if Willie Mosconi himself were to come back from the dead and say that x-system works and is good then Lou would tell Willie to go back to sleep.

Against that sort of standard when the greatest 14.1 player we know of couldn't even be allowed to stand up and say something is worthwhile then how does an ordinary mortal have a chance?

Dave Segal posts the highest score on Colin Colenso's pocketing test.

Dave posts a video showing him making 13 of 15 super tough cut shots using a system.

Ekkes posts a video of him making something like 12 of 14 random banks in a row.

I post videos doing tests that Naysayers diagrammed as "proof" that using a system won't work.

I posted a video showing me making three shots from the same positions and then from three different positions to show I was doing the exact same motion on every shot. Again stemming from a naysayer diagram.

Prominent instructors teach these systems.

Stan Shuffet even made a DVD to show the systems he teaches.

Many ordinary people have stood up to testify to the effectiveness of the systems and to the honesty of the people who teach them.

So I don't know what else you guys want?

--------------------------------------------------------------

I will be willing to make a sizable bet with anyone who is a naysayer.

The next thread that is opened about any particular aiming system just stay out if it and it won't go over 100 posts. Let the "yeasayers" say whatever they want to say to the on-the-fence crowd and who ever wants to discuss the mechanics.

Watch what happens.

Magically the system will get sorted out as to it's validity and usefullness by the people who are willing to go to the table and try it out. I am positive that the threads will die off quickly because by and large people are not willing to put in the work to really learn them.

I have a crisp new $100 bill to bet. And if I should lose then you can be sure that almost every post in that thread will be useful to understand why and how the system works or does not work. Isn't that what you really want?

 

[Wolven]

Everyone uses an aiming system.
For most people it is a combination of different systems that they mold into their own.
It would be impossible to play pool without an aiming system.
Type of aiming used is dependent on the shot, because some shots just work better with certain ways of visualizing.

Like it was said:
Lots of people have problems with outrageous claims of the believers.
Some people don’t want to see the fellow players getting ripped off.
There is no magic bullet. If you cannot deliver the cue straight no system is going to help you.

Finally. JB always gets the last word and if you don’t see his way he will shout at you until you do or you just give up.

 

[Masayoshi]

From my point of view even when the claims are backed up with evidence then it's almost always thrown out or disqualified with a bunch of personal slurs thrown in.

I mean Lou even said that if Willie Mosconi himself were to come back from the dead and say that x-system works and is good then Lou would tell Willie to go back to sleep.

Against that sort of standard when the greatest 14.1 player we know of couldn't even be allowed to stand up and say something is worthwhile then how does an ordinary mortal have a chance?

Anybody saying that something works, no matter who they are is not evidence of many of the statements that Yeasayers were claiming when CTE made its big debut. Many of those claims would require mathematical proofs as relevant evidence.

Dave Segal posts the highest score on Colin Colenso's pocketing test.

Dave posts a video showing him making 13 of 15 super tough cut shots using a system.

Ekkes posts a video of him making something like 12 of 14 random banks in a row.

I post videos doing tests that Naysayers diagrammed as "proof" that using a system won't work.

I posted a video showing me making three shots from the same positions and then from three different positions to show I was doing the exact same motion on every shot. Again stemming from a naysayer diagram.

Prominent instructors teach these systems.

Stan Shuffet even made a DVD to show the systems he teaches.

Many ordinary people have stood up to testify to the effectiveness of the systems and to the honesty of the people who teach them.

So I don't know what else you guys want?

--------------------------------------------------------------

I will be willing to make a sizable bet with anyone who is a naysayer.

The next thread that is opened about any particular aiming system just stay out if it and it won't go over 100 posts. Let the "yeasayers" say whatever they want to say to the on-the-fence crowd and who ever wants to discuss the mechanics.

Watch what happens.

Magically the system will get sorted out as to it's validity and usefullness by the people who are willing to go to the table and try it out. I am positive that the threads will die off quickly because by and large people are not willing to put in the work to really learn them.

I have a crisp new $100 bill to bet. And if I should lose then you can be sure that almost every post in that thread will be useful to understand why and how the system works or does not work. Isn't that what you really want?

Again, there is no doubt that it works for you and many people. Even Lou admits that it is useful in one way or another. Most Naysayers, or at least those who know what they are talking about are (or were, CTE isn't quite the hot topic that it once was) against claims that those systems are mathematically continuous (in other words, perfect or mathematically correct) as opposed to discrete like the various forms of fractional aiming that have been in existance for centuries. That is all.

 

[JoeyA]

Joey,

I got ridiculed at league play tonight for wearing my little chalk pouch :frown:. No matter where you go or what you do, there's always gonna be somebody with a snide comment to make if you're doing something that they wouldn't be caught dead doing!!!

Maniac (ain't lookin' around for the chalk ever again :thumbup

If people are hating on something as benign as a chalk pouch holder, they need to think about getting themselves some help.

95% of the Naysayers would become Yeasayers if this were to happen. Its the unsubstantiated claims that we are against, not the aiming system itself.

Masayoshi,
I SERIOUSLY doubt that any of the Naysayers would become Yeasayers.

A few like Roger Long have admitted that they have been mistaken about some of the aiming systems but most would rather cut out their tongue rather than admit that they have been mistaken about any one of the controversial aiming systems.

Roger is probably an exception to the rule.

While unsubstantiated claims may be something that most of us are against, it is simply rude and crude for Naysayers to get into a name-calling fit because they want substantiation for every statement that an aiming system player utters. Some posters are unable to express themselves in a manner that would be acceptable to some of the Naysayers.

The forum just doesn't have any need for people who spend most of their time ridiculing their fellow posters that use aiming systems just like it doesn't need the trolls that follow behind certain posters, hoping that the bait they toss out will be taken by those posters.

The bottom line is that forum members need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and decide for themselves, if they want to be part of the problem or part of the solution.

 

[Masayoshi]

If people are hating on something as benign as a chalk pouch holder, they need to think about getting themselves some help.



Masayoshi,
I SERIOUSLY doubt that any of the Naysayers would become Yeasayers.

A few like Roger Long have admitted that they have been mistaken about some of the aiming systems but most would rather cut out their tongue rather than admit that they have been mistaken about any one of the controversial aiming systems.

Roger is probably an exception to the rule.

While unsubstantiated claims may be something that most of us are against, it is simply rude and crude for Naysayers to get into a name-calling fit because they want substantiation for every statement that an aiming system player utters. Some posters are unable to express themselves in a manner that would be acceptable to some of the Naysayers.

The forum just doesn't have any need for people who spend most of their time ridiculing their fellow posters that use aiming systems just like it doesn't need the trolls that follow behind certain posters, hoping that the bait they toss out will be taken by those posters.

The bottom line is that forum members need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and decide for themselves, if they want to be part of the problem or part of the solution.

Actually I recall several posts where Lou and Dr. Dave and others specifically stated that CTE is a system that may be useful in helping to learn aiming, but the claims as to its mathematical accuracy are completely unsubstantiated. Yeasayers, instead of agreeing with this statement which would essentially end the argument and unite both sides, tried to prove CTE mathematically. We are still waiting.

There are only a few naysayers who actually put out insults, there were also some yeasayers who said quite nasty things. If you are against name callers, don't just single out Naysayers and try to make it look like the Yeasayers were complete angels.

 

[Wolven]

There are only a few naysayers who actually put out insults, there were also some yeasayers who said quite nasty things. If you are against name callers, don't just single out Naysayers and try to make it look like the Yeasayers were complete angels.

Got to agree with this.

 

[Ratta]

Hm,

perhaps a new thread should be opened.....

"Do i have a repeatable and straight stroke"- and if this can be truly answered with a clear "Yes", and the person tried out the system (no matter what system!!!), teached by an instructor who knows the system, is allowed to answer in those aiming-threads.

i m very sure, in that case we could delete about a minimum of 50-60% of the responses ....

a nice day,

Ingo

 

[Wolven]

Setting up and landing in the proper plane, with the center of vision and cue aligned is hard enough.
Stroking correct way and straight isn't easy.
Accounting for spin and properties of the cue adds to complexity.
Then we ask an average Joe to add pivoting.

Sure way to success.........

 

[Ratta]

That s why i wrote it- more kind of being bit ironic.
With all (truly) shown respect to every guy is posting in these threads. I have really often the feeling that the much greater amount isn t able to execute some straight strokes in a row-and here any systems won t fit for him. From what i learned, heard and saw from for example cte or Pro1 (never had a personal lesson, just interested), especially here you have to align and pivot absolutley perfect. Next to having a straight stroke....

Again. i have the greatest respect for everyone posting here on the forum. But sometimes some should think about posting that *something don t work* or whatever- without being absolutley sure, if something doesn t work just because of non given knowledge or ability.

 

[quadrary]

aiming systems

I guess i might as well jump in to this also. I do agree with the poster that said everyone uses an aiming system of some type nobody just fires the cue ball and hopes for the best. I also have to say that i am not a proponent of any particular system. I believe completely that no one system is best for everyone. I know the system i use but would be hard pressed to teach it as it relys on lines more than on precise spots on the object ball or cue ball. This would make it very difficult to explain to a beginner but is very effective for me. So as someone who has no dog in this fight i will say that these discussions of aiming systems could be kept civil and friendly. There is no harm in anyone trying a new system for themselves and they may find something that works for them. I am all for everyone elevating their game to the highest level their physical attributes will allow.