"Aiming Systems" are Junk, DO the Work!

[dr_dave]

And pros that have perfect strokes should never miss. And 3rd year players with perfect strokes should never miss.

Yet everybody misses.

It's obvious that both aim and ability to deliver the ball are important.

There are two claims that I see repeated on here. The first is that aim is trivial and 2nd year players know how to aim every shot. The second is that most misses are because of faulty stroke and not faulty aim.

I am disputing those claims. Nothing more.

FWIW, I agree with you. I also think most people miss most shots because the shots were not aimed accurately. It is not easy to aim accurately and consistently. It is also difficult to maintain the focus and discipline required to aim carefully on every shot (even the "easy" ones that we all sometimes miss).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

FWIW, I agree with you. I also think most people miss most shots because the shots were not aimed accurately. It is not easy to aim accurately and consistently. It is also difficult to maintain the focus and discipline required to aim carefully on every shot (even the "easy" ones that we all sometimes miss).

FYI, I am assuming that "aiming" also includes alignment of the cue along the desired line of aim (which also requires accurate and consistent vision center placement). The "stroke" refers only to delivery of the cue along the established line.

Regards,
Dave

 

[sixpack]

FYI, I am assuming that "aiming" also includes alignment of the cue along the desired line of aim (which also requires accurate and consistent vision center placement). The "stroke" refers only to delivery of the cue along the established line.

Regards,
Dave

Yes. Exactly.

Although I have been experimenting with changing my vision center around depending on the shot I'm shooting. With mixed results but some promise.

 

[BC21]

Picture an average league player that plays on a typical 8ball league one night a week. He or she doesn't have a table at the house, and through the league plays about 25 to 30 games every month. They may enter a little local bar tournament every now and then but they never get to the money. This is the extent of their pool playing, and it goes on like this for years. It's really just a social function, something they are decent at and enjoy doing. They watch a better player break and run a rack, and they wish they could do it at least once. Sometimes they play ok, but usually run 4 or 5 balls at the most.

I've seen these same players year after year. Some have good form, stance, good-looking stroke, etc...but they miss balls often. They simply don't play enough to develop a consistent eye for aiming. I'm sure there are stroke flaws also, but unlike Dan's 95/5, I'd say their misses are more like 50/50 (50% stroke related, 50% aiming related). For a good player that lacks consistency, 95/5 is probably very accurate. For an average bar league player, they don't play enough to build a solid stroke, but they also don't play enough to program their brain for aiming.

We have ONE pool hall in Charleston WV. There used to be two or three, and for several years there were NONE. Many small cities and backwood towns have limited places to play pool and tons of these players I'm talking about. They play their best when their inconsistent stroke just happens to line up with their inconsistent aim, like randomly rolling two balls out over the table....sometimes their paths connect and sometimes they don't. If the player's stroke is fine, they'll still miss due to lack of table time needed to develop aiming skills. If their aim is fine they'd still miss due to an inconsistent stroke.

A good aiming system, a way of knowing you're aiming correctly to pocket the ball, will immediately give feedback on stroke quality/consistency. If you make the ball you must've hit the aim spot. If you miss you must not have hit the aim spot. If you're estimating/guessing (trial and error) with your aiming, then you really don't know if the miss or make was due to a stroke flaw or an aiming flaw.

 

[BC21]

FYI, I am assuming that "aiming" also includes alignment of the cue along the desired line of aim (which also requires accurate and consistent vision center placement). The "stroke" refers only to delivery of the cue along the established line.

Regards,
Dave

That sounds right. The stroke is simply the arm moving the cue stick along a known alignment/aim line.

 

[Dan White]

A good aiming system, a way of knowing you're aiming correctly to pocket the ball, will immediately give feedback on stroke quality/consistency. If you make the ball you must've hit the aim spot. If you miss you must not have hit the aim spot. If you're estimating/guessing (trial and error) with your aiming, then you really don't know if the miss or make was due to a stroke flaw or an aiming flaw.

I know you won't say it, but this is exactly what Poolology does for a player. Fantastic invention!

When I say 95/5% stroke vs aim, what I'm saying is that if you take a beginner who wants to dedicate him/herself to play at a high level, the biggest hurdle to cross will be perfecting the stroke, which is everything needed to make the cue ball go exactly where you intend. I'm not really talking about why a mid level player is stuck where he is. I'd have to think more about that, but your take on it seems reasonable.

 

[sixpack]

I know you won't say it, but this is exactly what Poolology does for a player. Fantastic invention!

When I say 95/5% stroke vs aim, what I'm saying is that if you take a beginner who wants to dedicate him/herself to play at a high level, the biggest hurdle to cross will be perfecting the stroke, which is everything needed to make the cue ball go exactly where you intend. I'm not really talking about why a mid level player is stuck where he is. I'd have to think more about that, but your take on it seems reasonable.

Yes. Poolology is a great tool that can help you decipher whether you are aiming wrong or stroking wrong. It's been extremely helpful to me the last 3 months since I started playing again.

 

[BC21]

I know you won't say it, but this is exactly what Poolology does for a player. Fantastic invention!

When I say 95/5% stroke vs aim, what I'm saying is that if you take a beginner who wants to dedicate him/herself to play at a high level, the biggest hurdle to cross will be perfecting the stroke, which is everything needed to make the cue ball go exactly where you intend. I'm not really talking about why a mid level player is stuck where he is. I'd have to think more about that, but your take on it seems reasonable.

No......I'll say it. :grin-square: Thanks!

And I agree 100% that developing a good and consistent stroke is a more time-consuming venture than developing good aim. All of this is based on a player's willingness or ability to put in the time, and many players just don't have the time. But that doesn't mean they don't have a passion or a willingness to do it. They just don't have the time. That's why I say KNOWING exactly where to aim is better than THINKING you know where to aim, especially if you're struggling for table time.

 

[lfigueroa]

FWIW, I agree with you. I also think most people miss most shots because the shots were not aimed accurately. It is not easy to aim accurately and consistently. It is also difficult to maintain the focus and discipline required to aim carefully on every shot (even the "easy" ones that we all sometimes miss).

Regards,
Dave

My experience tells me otherwise and in this regard I am in Dan’s camp. Aiming is easy — it’s all about the mechanics of delivering the stroke.

I played the best 9ball and 8ball of my life when I was 25 years old, beating known champions, winning a state championship, and doing well at a national event. So what happened? Did I forget how to aim? Or did my mechanics change over time and my stroke delivery become worse?

For me it’s an easy question and over the years I’ve worked to make my mechanics better and more reliable, shot to shot. And as I’ve said before: with a good PSR that produces a good setup and stroke, aiming is an afterthought.

Lou Figueroa

 

[BC21]

The contention that I am disagreeing with is that players who have been playing 2-3 years have already shot all the shots and know where to aim so the reason they miss is because of their stroke.

I think incorrect aim is responsible for more than a trivial amount of misses for those players between 3 years and up to a low level pro.

I tend to agree with this for players that play often, dedicating two or three years to quality table time, which isn't considered 25 games of 8ball every month in a league.

Just thinking....it seems that muscle memory for a consistent stroke is probably developed first, and could take years, then the aiming begins to develop due to the stroke being more consistent. They are probably trying to develop at the same time, but repetitive muscle memory is quicker for the brain to grasp than recalling numerous shot images (CB/OB angle and pocket relationships). Those shot images get stored into memory, which at first (while you're developing a stroke) includes many unsuccessful shots as well as a few successful, so it takes a while for the brain to build a good data bank of successful shots.

After you finally get your stroke to be somewhat consistent, you begin to pack more successful shot images into your brain. So with a consistent stroke, aiming can develop quickly. But I also think it can work in reverse -- a consistently accurate aiming method could quickly help develop a consistent stroke.

 

[BC21]

My experience tells me otherwise and in this regard I am in Dan’s camp. Aiming is easy — it’s all about the mechanics of delivering the stroke.

I played the best 9ball and 8ball of my life when I was 25 years old, beating known champions, winning a state championship, and doing well at a national event. So what happened? Did I forget how to aim? Or did my mechanics change over time and my stroke delivery become worse?

For me it’s an easy question and over the years I’ve worked to make my mechanics better and more reliable, shot to shot. And as I’ve said before: with a good PSR that produces a good setup and stroke, aiming is an afterthought.

Lou Figueroa

I suppose it can be different for different folks. It seems like I hear a lot of experienced players, when they miss, say something like, "I knew I was gonna miss that, i just couldn't see it."

That seems like an aiming glitch, as if that particular shot angle hasn't been stored well enough in the mind. If could be a back cut or a long thin cut down the rail. If the stance is normal and the stroke is normal, the miss almost has to be linked to aiming.

 

[sixpack]

I tend to agree with this for players that play often, dedicating two or three years to quality table time, which isn't considered 25 games of 8ball every month in a league.

Just thinking....it seems that muscle memory for a consistent stroke is probably developed first, and could take years, then the aiming begins to develop due to the stroke being more consistent. They are probably trying to develop at the same time, but repetitive muscle memory is quicker for the brain to grasp than recalling numerous shot images (CB/OB angle and pocket relationships). Those shot images get stored into memory, which at first (while you're developing a stroke) includes many unsuccessful shots as well as a few successful, so it takes a while for the brain to build a good data bank of successful shots.

After you finally get your stroke to be somewhat consistent, you begin to pack more successful shot images into your brain. So with a consistent stroke, aiming can develop quickly. But I also think it can work in reverse -- a consistently accurate aiming method could quickly help develop a consistent stroke.

I agree with you completely. Here's a golf analogy:
I was a decent high school golfer. I was offered a golf scholarship which I turned down for various reasons.

Later in life I picked up golf again and was playing well. My irons were on, my driver was great and I was a great long putter and a terrible short putter. After a round that I shot 1 over par and missed 3 very short birdie putts, I decided to 'fix' my putting. I worked for hours on it every day and talked to my mentor and he helped me develop a very solid, very accurate putting stroke.

Then I couldn't make a putt. Any putt. Long, short didn't matter. I was putting so poorly I found myself lagging 5 foot putts to the hole and hoping for gimmes.

Long story short I finally realized that my original putting stroke was so loose that the ball could go anywhere within 3 cup widths at the hole for a 10' putt. So as long as I read the green within a foot or so I had a 33% chance of making the putt. For longer putts the % went down but I still made a lot of them.

Now that my stroke had tightened up, the slop in my stroke was much tighter, so I had to read the green more accurately or else the ball had zero chance to go in! So if I read the putt wrong by a cup width, I missed the hole by a cup where before I made just enough of those to think I was a good putter. And I was terrible at reading the greens! Then it took me several months of hard work to relearn everything I thought I knew about reading greens.

In pool, I've seen the same thing. Straighten out my stroke and some shots I can't make, because I never aimed them properly because my 'instinct' aim allowed for whatever stroke flaw I had. Backward cuts with extreme outside English. I can make those if I 'feel' it. If I aim those shots and shoot them with no English, I can't because I'm too used to aiming in the wrong spot.

That's why I'm on this aiming system kick. I don't think my instinct game will hold up under pressure as I age and don't get to play as often because it's very susceptible to Self doubt. So I'm rebuilding it by changing my stroke fundamentals along with my aiming fundamentals. So far so good. I'm not back to where I was before I took 10 years off but I'm coming along nicely.

Poolology is a great objective system. I love it.

CTE is a great system from what I know so far and approaching it with a completely open mind and a feeling of: "Oh, so that's when the magic happens" is really beneficial. There are still enough holes in my knowledge that I can't use it for every shot yet, but what I can do with it is like magic.

There are some shots that are stupid easy with CTE that are extremely difficult with any other system. Including poolology. And CTE the way I do it - which I'm sure is not correct - has a pivot for BHE built in. So I routinely fire these super gnarly looking shots with extreme inside or outside English and leave my opponents shaking their heads.

Last week at leagues one of my teammates - who is in that 650-700 Fargo range missed a moderately difficult back cut shot off the rail. After the game he said to me, "You would have just jacked that in with high inside and gone 4 rails for perfect shape. How do you do that?" So I tried to show him how I aim and pivot and he shook his head and said, "that doesn't work for me."

I hope someday to have a beer with everyone in the aiming discussion forum and compare notes. There is a lot of knowledge and different perspectives and experience here.

 

[BC21]

I agree with you completely. Here's a golf analogy:
I was a decent high school golfer. I was offered a golf scholarship which I turned down for various reasons.

Later in life I picked up golf again and was playing well. My irons were on, my driver was great and I was a great long putter and a terrible short putter. After a round that I shot 1 over par and missed 3 very short birdie putts, I decided to 'fix' my putting. I worked for hours on it every day and talked to my mentor and he helped me develop a very solid, very accurate putting stroke.

Then I couldn't make a putt. Any putt. Long, short didn't matter. I was putting so poorly I found myself lagging 5 foot putts to the hole and hoping for gimmes.

Long story short I finally realized that my original putting stroke was so loose that the ball could go anywhere within 3 cup widths at the hole for a 10' putt. So as long as I read the green within a foot or so I had a 33% chance of making the putt. For longer putts the % went down but I still made a lot of them.

Now that my stroke had tightened up, the slop in my stroke was much tighter, so I had to read the green more accurately or else the ball had zero chance to go in! So if I read the putt wrong by a cup width, I missed the hole by a cup where before I made just enough of those to think I was a good putter. And I was terrible at reading the greens! Then it took me several months of hard work to relearn everything I thought I knew about reading greens.

In pool, I've seen the same thing. Straighten out my stroke and some shots I can't make, because I never aimed them properly because my 'instinct' aim allowed for whatever stroke flaw I had. Backward cuts with extreme outside English. I can make those if I 'feel' it. If I aim those shots and shoot them with no English, I can't because I'm too used to aiming in the wrong spot.

That's why I'm on this aiming system kick. I don't think my instinct game will hold up under pressure as I age and don't get to play as often because it's very susceptible to Self doubt. So I'm rebuilding it by changing my stroke fundamentals along with my aiming fundamentals. So far so good. I'm not back to where I was before I took 10 years off but I'm coming along nicely.

Poolology is a great objective system. I love it.

CTE is a great system from what I know so far and approaching it with a completely open mind and a feeling of: "Oh, so that's when the magic happens" is really beneficial. There are still enough holes in my knowledge that I can't use it for every shot yet, but what I can do with it is like magic.

There are some shots that are stupid easy with CTE that are extremely difficult with any other system. Including poolology. And CTE the way I do it - which I'm sure is not correct - has a pivot for BHE built in. So I routinely fire these super gnarly looking shots with extreme inside or outside English and leave my opponents shaking their heads.

Last week at leagues one of my teammates - who is in that 650-700 Fargo range missed a moderately difficult back cut shot off the rail. After the game he said to me, "You would have just jacked that in with high inside and gone 4 rails for perfect shape. How do you do that?" So I tried to show him how I aim and pivot and he shook his head and said, "that doesn't work for me."

I hope someday to have a beer with everyone in the aiming discussion forum and compare notes. There is a lot of knowledge and different perspectives and experience here.

Good post. First round of drinks will be on me! :thumbup:

 

[dr_dave]

FWIW, I agree with you. I also think most people miss most shots because the shots were not aimed accurately. It is not easy to aim accurately and consistently. It is also difficult to maintain the focus and discipline required to aim carefully on every shot (even the "easy" ones that we all sometimes miss).

FYI, I am assuming that "aiming" also includes alignment of the cue along the desired line of aim (which also requires accurate and consistent vision center placement). The "stroke" refers only to delivery of the cue along the established line.

My experience tells me otherwise and in this regard I am in Dan’s camp. Aiming is easy — it’s all about the mechanics of delivering the stroke.

I played the best 9ball and 8ball of my life when I was 25 years old, beating known champions, winning a state championship, and doing well at a national event. So what happened? Did I forget how to aim? Or did my mechanics change over time and my stroke delivery become worse?

For me it’s an easy question and over the years I’ve worked to make my mechanics better and more reliable, shot to shot. And as I’ve said before: with a good PSR that produces a good setup and stroke, aiming is an afterthought.

We can all probably agree that both aiming and stroke are extremely important, and that different people will have more trouble with one vs. the other.

The stroke is obviously critically important to getting the speed and tip contact point right for a given shot. Without a repeatable stroke (with accurate and consistent speed and tip contact point placement), one cannot play at a high level. And making the best choices concerning speed and tip contact point, for a given shot and table layout, are also very important.

Having a consistent and purposeful pre-shot routine (PSR) is critical to aiming and aligning well. And I agree with you that a good PSR can also help foster a good stroke.

Interesting thread,
Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

I suppose it can be different for different folks. It seems like I hear a lot of experienced players, when they miss, say something like, "I knew I was gonna miss that, i just couldn't see it."

That seems like an aiming glitch, as if that particular shot angle hasn't been stored well enough in the mind. If could be a back cut or a long thin cut down the rail. If the stance is normal and the stroke is normal, the miss almost has to be linked to aiming.

I agree that it can be different for different people, I was just relating my experience. And I have also had the experience of not being able to "see" the shot, or have hit a shot right where I aimed and missed. But usually it's a stroking issue that has caused a miss.

Other issues are things like speed control, where I might pocket the ball but left myself no subsequent shot that ends the run, or have applied too much or too little english and missed; or miscalculated how much swerve I'm going to get on a shot.

One last thing: my experience tells me that stroking issues go far beyond stance and a normal stroke, whatever that is. There are many moving parts to a pool stroke, from fingers, wrists, elbows, shoulders -- that have to be aligned and perform precisely in three dimensions. IOWs, something like your grip hand has to be at the right height, distance from your body, and move back and then forward (preferably without a pause to successfully pocket a ball AND move the CB to where you want it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Bobkitty]

Hey everyone that reads the aiming forum. I will not be posting here anymore as I can see it's like changing a Democrat to a Republican. I have a great fantastic teacher and will constantly be taking lessons from him and doing the drills and exercises that he instructs me to do. I do it because he is a world class player, teacher and a great friend. I'll be up in the main forum with the projector stuff that's about to happen and stuff for sale, etc. I dearly wish any of you could take a lesson from Robin and find out what I've found out. I wish I could play pool with all of you and that adult drink is on me!

 

[medallio]

Here’s a little thing I stumbled upon ( I’m sure others have too). When you have thin cut( especially backcut) one tends to steer because you want to look where ball goes. What I do is find a spot on the rail to aim through to.i just stroke to that spot on rail

 

[BC21]

Hey everyone that reads the aiming forum. I will not be posting here anymore as I can see it's like changing a Democrat to a Republican. I have a great fantastic teacher and will constantly be taking lessons from him and doing the drills and exercises that he instructs me to do. I do it because he is a world class player, teacher and a great friend. I'll be up in the main forum with the projector stuff that's about to happen and stuff for sale, etc. I dearly wish any of you could take a lesson from Robin and find out what I've found out. I wish I could play pool with all of you and that adult drink is on me!

Well my friend, I think that's the problem with this forum in the first place:wink:....it shouldn't be approached like a political or religious domain where you're looking looking to convert people to your own beliefs. Players should come here to freely express ideas and opinions about aiming. It isn't titled the "Aiming System" forum, despite what it has turned into over the years. So any comments about anything aiming-related should be open for discussion.

Sure there's going to be differences of opinion that create a little spark here and there. But as long as no one is 100% dead-set that they're the official say-so on aiming, as if no other idea or opinion is worthy or "professional", the forum would seldom get out of hand with insulting, non-constructive rants. It'd be a much more productive forum without all that nonsense.

I'm a firm believer that aiming is easy depending on which method you find that works and makes it easy. I'm not going to tell anybody that Poolology will work better than any other system because people learn in different ways. What's easy for me or you may be confusing or too ambiguous for the next guy. It doesn't offend me or change my attitude one bit if someone says Poolology is difficult or sloppy or whatever. Because the reality of it is that it works, and as with anything else, is is what you make of it.

I still read about banking systems and other aiming systems, not because I'm shopping for one, but simply because I enjoy seeking knowledge. That's why I post here and read here. I feel I have things to offer, and I feel I have things to learn. I don't belittled others or disregard others because I realize my way of seeing things or doing things isn't the only way.

 

[Dan White]

Hey everyone that reads the aiming forum. I will not be posting here anymore as I can see it's like changing a Democrat to a Republican. I have a great fantastic teacher and will constantly be taking lessons from him and doing the drills and exercises that he instructs me to do. I do it because he is a world class player, teacher and a great friend. I'll be up in the main forum with the projector stuff that's about to happen and stuff for sale, etc. I dearly wish any of you could take a lesson from Robin and find out what I've found out. I wish I could play pool with all of you and that adult drink is on me!

I think you should keep an open mind about contributing here. The main agitator in this forum for many years (Spider) is banned for an undisclosed length of time. I think you'll find it an easier place to post now. I like reading your posts and there are many others who read but don't post.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that there are many who like your posts, even if they aren't agreed with 100%. If you want that you might need to get a dog. :smile:

 

[Dan White]

Here’s a little thing I stumbled upon ( I’m sure others have too). When you have thin cut( especially backcut) one tends to steer because you want to look where ball goes. What I do is find a spot on the rail to aim through to.i just stroke to that spot on rail

Raising hand here. Good post.