Aiming Systems - The End Justifies the Means

[JoeyA]

He is probably refering to total beginners, at least I hope so.

There are two lines of thought to teaching golf. One is to get the fundamentals down before adding any power. The other, swing with normal power so you can get the fundamentals down at the speed at which you will be playing.

I lean toward the second unless one is swinging totally out of control. Learn & practice as one will be playing. Why learn or practice what one may never use in actual play.

Just my $0.02
Rick

We have a well accomplished player here in New Orleans who teaches to practice shooting shots PRIMARILY at warp speed. (This is not for shape of course).

I confess that I practice the same thing on occasion but for the most part I practice shooting shots at all speeds.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Grasshopper look, but no can see anything special about the snooker players' cues, except they be real skinny. Grasshopper's eyes are not what they used to be.

Joey,

I guess we'll have to wait for CJ, but my guess is, how 'level' their cue is. The butt is even 'cut' on an angle to allow it to get lower when the butt is on top of the rail or table. The balls are smaller so lower is even more approriate.

Just my guess.
Rick

PS What player are you referring to, if not yourself. I'm from your area & even bought a case from Mr. Bufalo, although I have not been there in about 3 years, since I hurt my back.

 

[BasementDweller]

Joey,

I guess we'll have to wait for CJ, but my guess is, how 'level' their cue is. The butt is even 'cut' on an angle to allow it to get lower when the butt is on top of the rail or table. The balls are smaller so lower is even more approriate.

Just my guess.
Rick

If he's actually talking about the cue itself...

My guess would be he's referring to how the butt of their cues has that slice taken out of it (can't think of a better way to say it). This allows them to ensure that they are holding the cue in the exact same direction each and every shot. I've thought about putting a dot on my shafts to mimic this but never did anything more than think about it. I know there are some players on here that do just that (Bob Jewett comes to mind).

 

[sfleinen]

If he's actually talking about the cue itself...

My guess would be he's referring to how the butt of their cues has that slice taken out of it (can't think of a better way to say it). This allows them to ensure that they are holding the cue in the exact same direction each and every shot. I've thought about putting a dot on my shafts to mimic this but never did anything more than think about it. I know there are some players on here that do just that (Bob Jewett comes to mind).

Hi Chris!

That "slice taken out of the butt" is called a chamfer or a bevel. There's a little tale to that chamfer/bevel in the history of cue making (if you go way back), in that the chamfer/bevel was the part placed flat-side-down on the table, and used to strike the balls. When the cue was turned around and the tip side was used to strike the ball instead, the chamfer/bevel was actually found to form-fit the hand, and gave the hand room for the grip to contract onto and release from it as the hand opened/closed during the stroke.

These days, it -- as well as the natural "chevrons" of the ash wood -- are oriented "up" (when John Parris designs a snooker cue, part of the design is that the chamfer/bevel is on the same side of the cue as the ash wood's natural chevrons). So you have both visual (ash's chevrons) and tactile (chamfer/bevel in the grip hand) indicators of the cue's orientation.

You may find this video of "Building Ronnie O'Sullivan's Parris Cue" interesting:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v-9LRNnflLs

Amazing how much sheer *by hand* manipulation and shaping of the wood is done with ordinary hand tools, like wood planes, rasps, etc.!

-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

Why do you play?

I get just as much if not more enjoyment from executing a difficult or very diffiecult shot even if I mis the next one. It all depends on the run out. Many run outs are so simple. Why sholud one get a 'rush' for simply following the road map that took 'seconds' to complete.

If it was difficult & well executed, sure I feel something, I just don't know if I would call it a rush. Many players go for run outs & lose. I would rather play smartly, not run out & win the game.

I just ran out a rack off the break Tuesday but it was nothing special, mostly stop shots.

Now, your first run out. WOW that's a milestone. I've seen people jump around like they just won a half billion dollar lottery.

To answer your question, I play for the love of the game & the instant gratification it gives for a job well done or the dissappointment for a lacking effort.

Like, Mr. Wiley has said, The Game Is the Teacher & it can teach more that just pool.

I did not mean to impune his enjoyment. Perhaps it is just the word 'rush' that I did not associate with.

I hope this clears up the confussion.

Sincerely,
Rick

PS Since my shooting eye developed an astigmatism I do not aways win because I'm the better shooter, but I win often because I'm the smarter player & I am not referring to safeties.

 

[BasementDweller]

Hi Chris!

That "slice taken out of the butt" is called a chamfer or a bevel. There's a little tale to that chamfer/bevel in the history of cue making (if you go way back), in that the chamfer/bevel was the part placed flat-side-down on the table, and used to strike the balls. When the cue was turned around and the tip side was used to strike the ball instead, the chamfer/bevel was actually found to form-fit the hand, and gave the hand room for the grip to contract onto and release from it as the hand opened/closed during the stroke.

These days, it -- as well as the natural "chevrons" of the ash wood -- are oriented "up" (when John Parris designs a snooker cue, part of the design is that the chamfer/bevel is on the same side of the cue as the ash wood's natural chevrons). So you have both visual (ash's chevrons) and tactile (chamfer/bevel in the grip hand) indicators of the cue's orientation.

You may find this video of "Building Ronnie O'Sullivan's Parris Cue" interesting:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v-9LRNnflLs

Amazing how much sheer *by hand* manipulation and shaping of the wood is done with ordinary hand tools, like wood planes, rasps, etc.!

-Sean

Who needs Google when we've got you around.

Thanks for the info.

Still curious to hear what C.J. was referring to.

 

[JoeyA]

Joey,

I guess we'll have to wait for CJ, but my guess is, how 'level' their cue is. The butt is even 'cut' on an angle to allow it to get lower when the butt is on top of the rail or table. The balls are smaller so lower is even more approriate.

Just my guess.
Rick

PS What player are you referring to, if not yourself. I'm from your area & even bought a case from Mr. Bufalo, although I have not been there in about 3 years, since I hurt my back.

No not me, Rick. Mark Cavalier.

 

[greyghost]

No not me, Rick. Mark Cavalier.

Tho im no proponent to shooting hard to groove in or practice. When I WARM UP I do very much like to shoot alot of banks. I typically bank firm and the fact that I/we have to be extremely accurate for potting banks so some sort of practice shooting firmer/harder does not sound all that out of the box. I wouldn't make it a big part of my practice as shooting really firm/hard does not come up that much in the game, or at least is NOT NEEDED 99% of the time.

 

[8pack]

I get just as much if not more enjoyment from executing a difficult or very diffiecult shot even if I mis the next one. It all depends on the run out. Many run outs are so simple. Why sholud one get a 'rush' for simply following the road map that took 'seconds' to complete.

If it was difficult & well executed, sure I feel something, I just don't know if I would call it a rush. Many players go for run outs & lose. I would rather play smartly, not run out & win the game.

I just ran out a rack off the break Tuesday but it was nothing special, mostly stop shots.

Now, your first run out. WOW that's a milestone. I've seen people jump around like they just won a half billion dollar lottery.

To answer your question, I play for the love of the game & the instant gratification it gives for a job well done or the dissappointment for a lacking effort.

Like, Mr. Wiley has said, The Game Is the Teacher & it can teach more that just pool.

I did not mean to impune his enjoyment. Perhaps it is just the word 'rush' that I did not associate with.

I hope this clears up the confussion.

Sincerely,
Rick

PS Since my shooting eye developed an astigmatism I do not aways win because I'm the better shooter, but I win often because I'm the smarter player & I am not referring to safeties.

Not confused Rick and thanks for your reply.
I like this phrase(The Game Is the Teacher & it can teach more that just pool.)very catchy.

Whats it mean?
Maybe it means different things.

What I've learned about the game(if they play it long enough) is brings out ones true personality.:wink:

 

[plhlolelnlilx]

I personally prefer warm up to be overly aggressive and I'll shoot most balls very firm until my eyes calibrate to the table conditions such as cloth, balls, rail rebound, lighting, ect.... It's not necessarily about making sure I'm pocketing the balls but more about controlling whitey with varying extremes of left, right, draw, follow. As far as actual systems go, I play by line of sight or feel and like most I use the diamond system as a guide for banking or kicking.

I watched a while back where Shane was interviewed and he said he uses the left, center, right of his shaft. I played with it for a little while and can see some merit but it would be more of rough guide. You still have to fine tune before you pull the trigger.

 

[ENGLISH!]

No not me, Rick. Mark Cavalier.

Joey,

He beat me out of a league MVP 'trophy' many moons ago by .02 of a point. I played every week & he played the minimum amount to qualify. I know his Uncle Buddy, not well, we are just aquaintances. Mark & I never met. What a round the world way to make a connection. What high school did ya'll go to? That's just a N'awlins question.

Best Regards,
Rick

PS I think we may have gone in different directions.

 

[CJ Wiley]

be powerful first and work on your control later

He is probably refering to total beginners, at least I hope so.

There are two lines of thought to teaching golf. One is to get the fundamentals down before adding any power. The other, swing with normal power so you can get the fundamentals down at the speed at which you will be playing.

I lean toward the second unless one is swinging totally out of control. Learn & practice as one will be playing. Why learn or practice what one may never use in actual play.

Just my $0.02
Rick

Arnnold Palmer talks about his dad teaching him to hit the ball hard and swing fast because "you can learn control later" and it's better to train yourself in power first. I tend to agree with that, if someone doesn't have a powerful stroke I've never really seen them develop one. I would advise learning how to be powerful first and work on your control later....imho

 

[CJ Wiley]

Grasshopper look, but no can see anything special about the snooker players' cues, except they be real skinny. Grasshopper's eyes are not what they used to be.

There's reason to believe you can play better with a 56" cue...58" is standard, but there's no reason to beleive they're best for everyone. It's worth experimenting with if you are struggling with control issues.

 

[ENGLISH!]

There's reason to believe you can play better with a 56" cue...58" is standard, but there's no reason to beleive they're best for everyone. It's worth experimenting with if you are struggling with control issues.

Intersting. My Adam Balabushka is closer to 57" with the after market LD shafts than the 58" with the stock shaft. Do you know Mr. Strickland's theory behind his playing with the long 64" & 70" cues? Is it similiar to the heavier long putters in golf other than them being anchored?

Thanks again for your experienced based insights,
Rick

PS We seem to agree on quite a few philosophies.

 

[JB Cases]

Arnnold Palmer talks about his dad teaching him to hit the ball hard and swing fast because "you can learn control later" and it's better to train yourself in power first. I tend to agree with that, if someone doesn't have a powerful stroke I've never really seen them develop one. I would advise learning how to be powerful first and work on your control later....imho

This is along the lines of you can always throttle back but you can't gear up when you don't have the gears.

We have all seen the shotmaker who doesn't have control. And we all know the player who has great touch but can't come with the tough shots.

The thread title says it all. The end justifies the means. Developing a powerful stroke and learning to aim using a method that feels like stealing are definitely things that a complete player must have.

You are a martial artist, I was a springboard diver and a trampolinist. I loved the big tricks but I had to learn to throttle it back and show control with the "easy" dives. It was hard for me to lay down but I did it and the payoff came when they needed someone who was willing to do the big tricks. Because I became a complete performer able to do the simple stuff and who got a reputation for not being afraid of the big tricks I always had work. In professional diving you are valued more if you are willing and able to do more. But I learned that I had to be WILLING to do the easy stuff and do it well if I wanted to have a shot at doing the spectacular stuff.

The difference came in diving shows where a lot of the divers simply couldn't or wouldn't do the big tricks - thus they were less valuable to the show. I feel the same about pool players. You have to be able to come with the shots when you are faced with them. It doesn't matter how much you can run cosmos, when you are facing a table length draw shot for the rent money you have to know what to do and how to do it.

Some of us don't have backers. We didn't reach that level in pool. But we still gamble. We still know what it means to bet enough to make your heart flutter. Some of us know what it means to be a long way away from home and playing on your last barrel up against the nuts and having to dig deep and bring it. Aside from the heart required to do this a player simply has to have the skill. Never developing the stroke to move the cue ball in ways it absolutely does not want to go will make otherwise decent players broke more than anything. Being able to come with those shots however instills fear in your opponents and teaches them that no place is safe.

25 years later I am still trying to draw my ball like Buzzy Harris showed me down in Hollywood Florida.

 

[ENGLISH!]

This is along the lines of you can always throttle back but you can't gear up when you don't have the gears.

We have all seen the shotmaker who doesn't have control. And we all know the player who has great touch but can't come with the tough shots.

The thread title says it all. The end justifies the means. Developing a powerful stroke and learning to aim using a method that feels like stealing are definitely things that a complete player must have.

You are a martial artist, I was a springboard diver and a trampolinist. I loved the big tricks but I had to learn to throttle it back and show control with the "easy" dives. It was hard for me to lay down but I did it and the payoff came when they needed someone who was willing to do the big tricks. Because I became a complete performer able to do the simple stuff and who got a reputation for not being afraid of the big tricks I always had work. In professional diving you are valued more if you are willing and able to do more. But I learned that I had to be WILLING to do the easy stuff and do it well if I wanted to have a shot at doing the spectacular stuff.

The difference came in diving shows where a lot of the divers simply couldn't or wouldn't do the big tricks - thus they were less valuable to the show. I feel the same about pool players. You have to be able to come with the shots when you are faced with them. It doesn't matter how much you can run cosmos, when you are facing a table length draw shot for the rent money you have to know what to do and how to do it.

Some of us don't have backers. We didn't reach that level in pool. But we still gamble. We still know what it means to bet enough to make your heart flutter. Some of us know what it means to be a long way away from home and playing on your last barrel up against the nuts and having to dig deep and bring it. Aside from the heart required to do this a player simply has to have the skill. Never developing the stroke to move the cue ball in ways it absolutely does not want to go will make otherwise decent players broke more than anything. Being able to come with those shots however instills fear in your opponents and teaches them that no place is safe.

25 years later I am still trying to draw my ball like Buzzy Harris showed me down in Hollywood Florida.

Mr. Barton,

Well said. I agree & the point should be taken well by anyone that wants to take their game to THAT level.

With Best Regards,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

Earl knows a lot about the game, and he does have a unique style

Intersting. My Adam Balabushka is closer to 57" with the after market LD shafts than the 58" with the stock shaft. Do you know Mr. Strickland's theory behind his playing with the long 64" & 70" cues? Is it similiar to the heavier long putters in golf other than them being anchored?

Thanks again for your experienced based insights,
Rick

PS We seem to agree on quite a few philosophies.

Earl likes that cue on the 10' table, but I doubt if you'll see him use it in the future on the 9' tables unless he's having difficulty "getting through the ball"....Earl's game isn't one many players will have success emulating. He holds the cue in what he calls a "death grip" (I hold mine firmly as well) and twists the cue through the center to extenuate the spin. He spins the cue ball a lot, but still just barely comes off center most of the time. This can only be done by turning the cue through impact. There's some pretty impressive tricks you can achieve by doing this and create spin in ways few people have ever experienced. Earl knows a lot about the game, things that very few others know. I talked to him for several hours last time I saw him about a variety of topics. There's two hours of it on film that will be in my upcoming documentary on his 11 Rack Run. He also talked about his new stance and breaking techniques.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Earl likes that cue on the 10' table, but I doubt if you'll see him use it in the future on the 9' tables unless he's having difficulty "getting through the ball"....Earl's game isn't one many players will have success emulating. He holds the cue in what he calls a "death grip" (I hold mine firmly as well) and twists the cue through the center to extenuate the spin. He spins the cue ball a lot, but still just barely comes off center most of the time. This can only be done by turning the cue through impact. There's some pretty impressive tricks you can achieve by doing this and create spin in ways few people have ever experienced. Earl knows a lot about the game, things that very few others know. I talked to him for several hours last time I saw him about a variety of topics. There's two hours of it on film that will be in my upcoming documentary on his 11 Rack Run. He also talked about his new stance and breaking techniques.

Thanks for the reply. I have seen him use the long cue recently even on the smaller tables. From what you mention about 'getting through', it seems to be similiar to the newer putter designs with rear weighting for more inertial momentum as an aid to both accelleration & maintainance of line.

56'" cue vs 70" cue, 'pendulum' stroke vs the J stroke, all very interesting, and mostly very successful. Can't wait for the documentary.

Thanks again,
Rick

PS May I refer to you as CJ? Mr. Wiley is harder to 'type'.

PSS As you may know, Raymong Floyd's wife Maria just recently passed. An interesting story about Mr. Floyd's last major at age 49, I believe. They were driving to the site & he was questioning whether or not he could still win a major at that age. Maria sort of jumped him & confirmed to him that he still could. I beileve that she asked him who was playing better more consistent golf than him at that time. I believe that she said to him, 'you just have to get it done!.....................He did! Choosing your 'partner' is of the most importance. Who won that major? Raymond or Maria? Confident Consistency!

 

[AtLarge]

... An interesting story about Mr. Floyd's last major at age 49, I believe. They were driving to the site & he was questioning whether or not he could still win a major at that age. Maria sort of jumped him & confirmed to him that he still could. I beileve that she asked him who was playing better more consistent golf than him at that time. I believe that she said to him, 'you just have to get it done!.....................He did! Choosing your 'partner' is of the most importance. Who won that major? Raymond or Maria? Confident Consistency!

Perhaps this relates to his 1986 U.S. Open win at age 43; that was his last win in a major on the PGA Tour. Good story.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Perhaps this relates to his 1986 U.S. Open win at age 43; that was his last win in a major on the PGA Tour. Good story.

Thanks for the correction & the compliment of the story.

My memory for particulars is sometimes a bit shacky. It was the U.S. Open, I should have stated that. It might have made for a better reading. I believe you are correct as to his age. I knew it was forty something. I just couldn't remember.

Thanks again,
Rick