Aiming - what does Efren know, that no one else does ?

when he was shown the effective way his game improved immediately

LAMas said:
Thanks for the vid.

I notice that Efren points his tip at the bottom of the CB on his first stroke and raises it thereafter if necessary.
Click to expand...

I just finished a two hour lesson with a businessman from Dallas. It's so cool to "see the light go on" when they "Real Eyes" that most of the things they've been told aren't true. I'm not sure why this mis information has constantly been passed down, but it sure messes people up.

Here's the things that had him so confused (and when he was shown the effective way his game improved immediately).

1) Keep the cue as level as possible.
2) Keep your bridge and and arm on the table.
3) Use multiple speeds and spins depending on "what the shot requires".
4) Don't "release" your wrist/hands/forearm for power and accuracy.
5) Aim cue ball at a "contact point" of the object ball for different angles.
6) Keep your forearm perpendicular, using your arm for the stoke.
7) Make sure you follow though (more than 2-4 inches)
8) Get low on the cue with your chin/head - lead with your chin.
9) Hold the cue lightly so the "cue does the work".
10) A 13 mm tip size is best for 9' tables.

This is "conventional methods," however, I assure you there's a better way. Some advanced players can use "some" of these methods and play well, but usually because they've been playing that way since they were very young (and have to continue to practice hours a day). 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
CJ Wiley said:
I just finished a two hour lesson with a businessman from Dallas. It's so cool to "see the light go on" when they "Real Eyes" that most of the things they've been told aren't true. I'm not sure why this mis information has constantly been passed down, but it sure messes people up.

Here's the things that had him so confused (and when he was shown the effective way his game improved immediately).

1) Keep the cue as level as possible.
2) Keep your bridge and and arm on the table.
3) Use multiple speeds and spins depending on "what the shot requires".
4) Don't "release" your wrist/hands/forearm for power and accuracy.
5) Aim cue ball at a "contact point" of the object ball for different angles.
6) Keep your forearm perpendicular, using your arm for the stoke.
7) Make sure you follow though (more than 2-4 inches)
8) Get low on the cue with your chin/head - lead with your chin.
9) Hold the cue lightly so the "cue does the work".
10) A 13 mm tip size is best for 9' tables.

This is "conventional methods," however, I assure you there's a better way. Some advanced players can use "some" of these methods and play well, but usually because they've been playing that way since they were very young (and have to continue to practice hours a day). 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

Well CJ,

i always like to read things from you and your point of view-always interesting. But with this posting you will confuse even more guys.
Because there are many points that are absolutley the truth, hm? :-)

perhaps a bit unlucky- if i may say that. LIke always....not offending you my friend :-)

lg
INgo
 
there's many levels to "the Truth"

Ratta said:
Well CJ,

i always like to read things from you and your point of view-always interesting. But with this posting you will confuse even more guys.
Because there are many points that are absolutley the truth, hm? :-)

perhaps a bit unlucky- if i may say that. LIke always....not offending you my friend :-)

lg
INgo
Click to expand...

Absolutely the truth? Be aware, we are always learning so their are seldom "absolutes", besides, {according to documented history} there's many levels to "the Truth". :wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
I m allways aware:rolleyes:
And i m with you, that the greater amount of points are bs.
But sure not all.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9100 mit Tapatalk 2
 
It's constructive to "agree to disagree

Ratta said:
I m allways aware:rolleyes:
And i m with you, that the greater amount of points are bs.
But sure not all.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9100 mit Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

It's constructive to "agree to disagree," let's discuss the one you are referring to and see what conclusions are created. I'm sure this is informative to everyone involved.

I'm not "hard set" on any of these, I just think someone can get "bound up" by misunderstanding why things should be done a certain way, and not another. All in good intentions of course. After all "The Game is the Teacher"
 
CJ Wiley said:
I just finished a two hour lesson with a businessman from Dallas. It's so cool to "see the light go on" when they "Real Eyes" that most of the things they've been told aren't true. I'm not sure why this mis information has constantly been passed down, but it sure messes people up.

Here's the things that had him so confused (and when he was shown the effective way his game improved immediately).

1) Keep the cue as level as possible.
2) Keep your bridge and and arm on the table.
3) Use multiple speeds and spins depending on "what the shot requires".
4) Don't "release" your wrist/hands/forearm for power and accuracy.
5) Aim cue ball at a "contact point" of the object ball for different angles.
6) Keep your forearm perpendicular, using your arm for the stoke.
7) Make sure you follow though (more than 2-4 inches)
8) Get low on the cue with your chin/head - lead with your chin.
9) Hold the cue lightly so the "cue does the work".
10) A 13 mm tip size is best for 9' tables.

This is "conventional methods," however, I assure you there's a better way. Some advanced players can use "some" of these methods and play well, but usually because they've been playing that way since they were very young (and have to continue to practice hours a day). 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

Well I would say that a lot of the conventional wisdom comes from the people who write the books and make the tapes who themselves are not top players.

It is my opinion that ONLY when you get to the very top level in any field do you have the ENTIRE body of experience to draw from. Those not at the top can only describe what they observe and not what they have done. They can only guess at how and why players are doing what they do.

Very few top players have done solid instructional material that hasn't been dumbed down by a co-author or was so poorly done that it faded to obscurity.

We have some however, Grady's series, Billy Incardona's One Pocket stuff, Jimmy Reid's videos, yours. Buddy's video (although that one is on the borderline of being just fodder for the masses).

Point being that these videos come straight from the top - from the guys that have been in the grease against the best in the world in tournaments and for money.

Do understand one thing CJ, your audience here is comprised of pool nuts and geeks. We love to talk pool and traded theory and we all play at a decent level for the amount of effort we have put in. Decent compared to most people around us in our lives. When we go to an event like Derby City we quickly find out that there are many many many levels above us. But most league players won't understand or care about TOI if you traveled the country doing free clinics on it.

They get their instruction from players who got their instruction from Robert Byrne's Standard Book of Pool. Who got to decided that Byrne's book is the standard? Well Robert Byrne did of course. But you can easily see how such a title can be taken as the "bible" of pool instruction.

And honestly IF someone were to diligently practice Byrne's instructions then they could end up being a decent enough player.

I have taken lessons from Parica, from Gerry Watson, Danny Medina, Jimmy Reid, played with Buddy Hall, Rodney Morris and others. The top players just play the game differently. When they move the ball around the amateur says, of course that's easy, I can do that. But in fact, they either can't do it at all or they are very very inconsistent about it.

During my lesson with Parica he said to hit a particular shot a certain way and I tried and failed and tried and failed and he showed me several times and I still couldn't do it. He was at a loss to tell me HOW to hit it because he really couldn't understand that someone couldn't get when the shot was demonstrated. In reality though his touch was so much finer than mine that what was easy for him was hard for me because I didn't have the sensory relationship to the cue ball that he did (and does).

And it is my belief that this heightened awareness that pros have IS the difference. Where does that come from? Well hitting a million balls AND also using methods that the average player doesn't know about, doesn't understand or hasn't been able to practice enough to really get it.

It's time that you and your fellow professionals started revising and updating the "standard" way pool is taught and give us your version. The time has never been better for this with the technology and reach available to every person.
 
The techniques and "common knowledge" of pocket billiards is outdated and hovers

JB Cases said:
Well I would say that a lot of the conventional wisdom comes from the people who write the books and make the tapes who themselves are not top players.

It is my opinion that ONLY when you get to the very top level in any field do you have the ENTIRE body of experience to draw from. Those not at the top can only describe what they observe and not what they have done. They can only guess at how and why players are doing what they do.

Very few top players have done solid instructional material that hasn't been dumbed down by a co-author or was so poorly done that it faded to obscurity.

We have some however, Grady's series, Billy Incardona's One Pocket stuff, Jimmy Reid's videos, yours. Buddy's video (although that one is on the borderline of being just fodder for the masses).

Point being that these videos come straight from the top - from the guys that have been in the grease against the best in the world in tournaments and for money.

Do understand one thing CJ, your audience here is comprised of pool nuts and geeks. We love to talk pool and traded theory and we all play at a decent level for the amount of effort we have put in. Decent compared to most people around us in our lives. When we go to an event like Derby City we quickly find out that there are many many many levels above us. But most league players won't understand or care about TOI if you traveled the country doing free clinics on it.

They get their instruction from players who got their instruction from Robert Byrne's Standard Book of Pool. Who got to decided that Byrne's book is the standard? Well Robert Byrne did of course. But you can easily see how such a title can be taken as the "bible" of pool instruction.

And honestly IF someone were to diligently practice Byrne's instructions then they could end up being a decent enough player.

I have taken lessons from Parica, from Gerry Watson, Danny Medina, Jimmy Reid, played with Buddy Hall, Rodney Morris and others. The top players just play the game differently. When they move the ball around the amateur says, of course that's easy, I can do that. But in fact, they either can't do it at all or they are very very inconsistent about it.

During my lesson with Parica he said to hit a particular shot a certain way and I tried and failed and tried and failed and he showed me several times and I still couldn't do it. He was at a loss to tell me HOW to hit it because he really couldn't understand that someone couldn't get when the shot was demonstrated. In reality though his touch was so much finer than mine that what was easy for him was hard for me because I didn't have the sensory relationship to the cue ball that he did (and does).

And it is my belief that this heightened awareness that pros have IS the difference. Where does that come from? Well hitting a million balls AND also using methods that the average player doesn't know about, doesn't understand or hasn't been able to practice enough to really get it.

It's time that you and your fellow professionals started revising and updating the "standard" way pool is taught and give us your version. The time has never been better for this with the technology and reach available to every person.
Click to expand...

I agree, games and sports just naturally evolve though many people "standing on each other's shoulders". My intention and outcome here is not to argue (although I new there would not be complete "agreement") and try to "push" our concepts and techniques on the "pool world". We have been doing R & D and though this (research and development) found out exactly what you just communicated.

We also found out what NOT to do, and quite frankly that's what's being done for the most part. The general public is not going to accept pool like it is now. The Game is not at fault and I'm not pointing my finger at any individual (s). The issue is the character development is lacking and that's what will ultimately get the public's attention. No game has much "magnatism," it's always the top champions of the sport or game that "lead the charge".

There are countless examples of these icons in each and every sport, and this was no accident, they were developed just like the "Fast Eddie Felson" character was developed or the Arnold Palmer character was developed.
paul_newman_06.jpg


The techniques and "common knowledge" of pocket billiards is outdated and hovers at a level 5 (out of a possible 7 IMO). Not only is the information "dated," it's very difficult to do and may even drive potential enthusiasts out of the Game.

We decided last year to commit 3 years and do AS MUCH as we are able to do for THE GAME and just let the "chips fall where they may." We have no alliance to any particular person, organization or agenda, our outcome is to have a positive influence on the Game. We're starting with the instructional and promotional side because it's the easiest to "get up to speed."

I would really like to be part of the "difference that makes the difference" in bringing this "down cycle" of professional (thus recreational) pool back into the public's awareness. I see a LOT of opportunity to use my background in business, competing, and producing Billiard TV Shows to the table.

The Game will have it's time in the spotlight again, and I'm not sure how this will develop, I just have confidence that it will. How can I say such bold statements as just a "student of the game?" I think your guessed it. - 'The Game is the Teacher' ;)
mfln4930l.jpg
 
CJ Wiley said:
I've played Efren many times and we do many things very similar (as far as striking the cue ball). He DEFINITELY looks at the cue ball and he told a friend of mine that he looks at it last...Remember, it was Mike Lebon that hinted about the TOI method in 91 and if you watch Efren play you will see him hit the "floating shot" that is the sign of TOI. Granted he can use any spin, but hits the cue ball basically the same every chance he gets.
I played him for $20,000 in Seattle at an all Filipino Pool Room for 14 straight hours. I missed 6 balls the entire time and came out 1 game behind (this match was witnessed by a room full of people and he actually out broke me because I was knocking object balls off the table when I hit them hard) , we ( I was with Tommy Rey from Dallas) won the money because I was getting 3 on the wire to 22. No rematch was ever discussed.
He uses a version ( I say version because we've never discussed it) of the TOI and those that are using it now will be able to see it. Watch videos of him playing and pay attention to the sound his cue makes and the reaction of the cue ball with "NO SPIN" after contact....this can only be done cuing to the Inside....that's a fact.
PS: on page 126 (shown below) there was an article that I hadn't seen before when they were trying to get me to tell them about the "Touch of Inside" technique.AIMING TECHNIQUES OF THE PROS
THE FINAL SECRET
There you have it, the secrets of aiming
from dozens of the top players who do it
best. But then again, is the secret really
out? #2 ranked C J Wiley offers that you
must aim before you get down on the ball
by lining up correctly, of course, but adds
that as far as his aiming method itself,
"There are certain things you don't tell.
Last time I wrote anything about aiming,
somebody copied it and started selling it."
I considered Chinese water torture, but
I don't think he would've cracked.
I guess the secret may still be out
there... somewhere. •
Click to expand...
C.J.
I am a 75 year old man in very good physical shape and I still have 20/20 vision and do not wear glasses.
I've always been a 'fair' shortstop, but in the last 30 days I've been working with your 'touch of inside' thing and my game has skyrocketed.
I always aimed in the air before going down to get in position as that was taught to me by Danny Jones here in Atlanta wayyyy back in 1959.
But, I don't think anything I've ever worked with (including Wimpy's line on the ferrule method) has been of greater value than this TOI of yours and I salute you for revealing it to the pool players of the world.
Those who will work with it for maybe 40 hours will immediately feel it kick in and then the fun comes in....seeing those balls scurry dead center into the pocket.
I submit that it is simply murder on those long shots where the CB is stuck on the rail and you KNOW you got to make that shot for the gelt.
You're quite a young man...good luck to you in all your future endeavors.
Thanks again.
"Flash"
 
Yoda4962 said:
Interesting topic i think. Has anyone one else figured this out ? I think I have figured it out......

any thoughts ?
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He dosnt look at a contact point ,he starts stroking as soon as he falls into the shot.(wonder why)Yes I know.

reebsidoog!
 
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Efrens perception of a shot on the table is so good that it has allowed his subconscious to worry about the cue ball and he consciously only worries about the hitting the object ball. He has connected himself directly to the object ball and the shot leaving out the cue ball as the middle man, I guess you can say, I have also done this.
 
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Atomic Break said:
Efrens perception of a shot on the table is so good that it has allowed his subconscious to worry about the cue balls position and he consciously only worries about the hitting the object ball. He has connected himself directly to the object ball and the shot leaving out the cue ball as the middle man, o guess you can say, I have done this.
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I actually think he connects himself through the cb(he is the cb) with the ob and then something happens.:)On most shots
 
That is the "moment of truth," even for "The Magician".

LAMas said:
He is a master of spin on the rock to get shape like Parica...great shape.:smile:
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I know it appears like Efren does whatever the shot requires. However, just open your mind and watch him play anther match. Watch to see if he creates ways to hit a certain shot, a shot that doesn't have spin on it. Listen for the sound his cue makes at contact - is it consistent?

Can he spin the cue ball any way he wants? Yes, of course, and that's still not the point, the point is even though he does this well, he would still rather not do it. Watch one of his matches and see if he EVER spins the cue ball unnecessarily....he knows better than anyone that the
images
"trick" to pool is to always play the percentages and spinning the cue ball is never the best choice.

He is a master at shooting one particular shot and you can see it if you focus on the spin the cue ball makes AFTER object ball contact. That is the "moment of truth," even for "The Magician".
Efren-World-14.1.jpg
 
Yes, this is it.!

8pack said:
He dosnt look at a contact point ,he starts stroking as soon as he falls into the shot.(wonder why)Yes I know.

reebsidoog!
Click to expand...

He IS the cue ball !!!

Try it yourself, because it takes lots of confidence.
Y
 
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