Aiming with English

G

grobbs

Greg R
Hello, I just started playing pool more seriously and have a question.I have noticed that pretty much anytime I shoot a cut shot with any english on the cue ball that the object ball cuts more than if I shot the same shot without any spin. Regardless of inside or outside english. The opposite happens with forward spin. If I have a cut shot and put forward spin, the object ball will cut at a lesser angle than if I shot the same shot without spin. Is this normal? Of all the help and tutorial videos I have seen, not one has ever mentioned this effect. Am I shooting or doing something wrong or is this an effect that has to be compensated for? Again this happens every time I put any thing but forward spin on the cue ball. So I've been aiming to undercut my shots to be able to make them.

Thanks for any advice.
 
how do you apply english? Ive found that switching to back hand english makes a huge difference in the amount of deflection.
 
I'll bite.

This assumes that one can visualize the contact point on the OB (geometry).

Outside (helping) English or high top or low draw will increase the cut angle (closer to geometrically correct)) compared to a center CB hit that suffers from cut induced throw (CIT) that pushes the OB forward resulting in a thicker (smaller) cut angle.

With increasing separation of the OB and CB, Inside English is affected by squirt that causes the CB to travel toward the outside of the contact point, so to achieve the geometrically correct cut angle, you can compensate by aiming closer to the contact point (the point when contacted by the CB sends the OB to the pocket/target) on the OB.

One must adjust for the amount of squirt imparted by the mass of the shaft as well. That would be less with a low deflection (LD) shaft.

I hope this helps.
 
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The effects you are describing should not be happening.

When using inside or outside english, the cue ball will squirt or curve (or both) depending on speed, distance, etc. These effects must be compensated for in your aim and/or stroke. If left alone, one will result in a thicker contact, one in a thinner contact. Assuming the same relative distance and speed, you would not find both inside and outside english causing an overcut. It is possible however that you are doing something to compensate for one and not the other, in which case that could be what you are seeing.

Forward spin, or draw, will help negate the collision induced throw (CIT) that happens when cutting a ball, especially between 15 and 60 degrees. This effect causes the ball to cut less than intended, as the cue ball "grabs" the object ball during the cut and tends to undercut the ball somewhat. Using a good speed and natural roll (or draw) will result in a cleaner contact than using a soft speed or a stun shot.

All of these things, and more, you must be aware of when shooting, and steps must be taken through practice to account for their effects. Which is why this game is so damn hard sometimes...
Scott
 
Thank you for the replies. I have heard of both squirt and deflection. Now how would I adjust for these? Are there any good videos on YouTube or elsewhere that would help? This has been a real problem in league play. I'll have a say 45 degree cut shot and need to get the cue ball to a certain spot for the next ball. So I will apply whatever English I see fit to get me there but then just have to guess how much it is going to add to my cut shot to make sure I make the ball. Several times I have ended up missing a shot I know I could have made if I had shot it without English, however I would not then get the cue ball in the right spot.
 
scottycoyote said:
how do you apply english? Ive found that switching to back hand english makes a huge difference in the amount of deflection.
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What exactly do you mean by back hand english? I usually just aim normally at the point of the OB i need to hit to make the shot, then simply shoot either alittle to the left, right, upper, lower, or combination on those on the cue ball. Then I have been adjusting for how much I think the shot over cuts the ball in order to make the shot.

Thanks
 
grobbs said:
What exactly do you mean by back hand english? I usually just aim normally at the point of the OB i need to hit to make the shot, then simply shoot either alittle to the left, right, upper, lower, or combination on those on the cue ball. Then I have been adjusting for how much I think the shot over cuts the ball in order to make the shot.

Thanks
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From that point on the OB you need to hit to make the shot, pivot your cue on your bridge hand to apply english. ie. to add left english, move the back hand to the right. Your cue will no longer be on the shot line, but stroking down this pivoted line will still work because deflection cancels the squirt. You might need to adjust your bridge point forward or back a bit to find the perfect BHE bridge for your cue.
 
Are you taking throw into account? Collision induced throw will produce a little less cut.
 
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mohrt said:
From that point on the OB you need to hit to make the shot, pivot your cue on your bridge hand to apply english. ie. to add left english, move the back hand to the right. Your cue will no longer be on the shot line, but stroking down this pivoted line will still work because deflection cancels the squirt. You might need to adjust your bridge point forward or back a bit to find the perfect BHE bridge for your cue.
Click to expand...

Ok cool I will have to try that once I get out of work tonight. Never heard of that. Doesn't seem like it should work but as long as it does that is all that matters! Thanks. I have always just kept the cue straight down the line towards the object ball, physically picking up my bridge and moving to the left or right to keep that line.

Is this done also with a follow or forward spin shot? I usually make a higher bridge. Should I be keeping my bridge at the same level and just lowering my back hand?
 
grobbs said:
Ok cool I will have to try that once I get out of work tonight. Never heard of that. Doesn't seem like it should work but as long as it does that is all that matters! Thanks. I have always just kept the cue straight down the line towards the object ball, physically picking up my bridge and moving to the left or right to keep that line.

Is this done also with a follow or forward spin shot? I usually make a higher bridge. Should I be keeping my bridge at the same level and just lowering my back hand?
Click to expand...

Yes any english works. You might blend in bridge adjustments, especially with shots close to the rail. Just play with it, see what you get out of it. BHE is the easiest way to apply english without losing the shot.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Are you taking throw into account? Collision induced throw will produce a little less cut.
Click to expand...

What exactly is throw? I have heard the term but never fully understood it. Is it the forward rolling motion of the cue ball that causes both OB and cue to have more of a forward direction of motion?

Wow there is a lot more to learn about billiards than I knew. I figured I had the basics down.
 
mohrt said:
Yes any english works. You might blend in bridge adjustments, especially with shots close to the rail. Just play with it, see what you get out of it. BHE is the easiest way to apply english without losing the shot.
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And the distance makes a difference too, correct? Someone earlier commented that it will have an effect. If so, does the back hand adjustment work better with shorter or longer shots?
 
grobbs said:
What exactly is throw? I have heard the term but never fully understood it. Is it the forward rolling motion of the cue ball that causes both OB and cue to have more of a forward direction of motion?

Wow there is a lot more to learn about billiards than I knew. I figured I had the basics down.
Click to expand...

'Throw' is shorthand for any of a number of effects in ball-to-ball contact, in which the object ball is thrown off the idealized path that it would take if the collision were perfectly elastic.

Throw is induced (caused) by the friction between these non-perfect spheres as they move past each other during a collision.

The two types of throw that you most commonly talk about are:

Collision Induced Throw (CIT), caused by the collision of balls that occurs at anything less than a 0-degree cut angle (i.e., straight on).

Spin Induced Throw (SIT), caused by the effect of the rotation (spin) of one ball as it comes into contact with another ball.

These concepts are discussed at length on Dr. Dave's website (http://billiards.colostate.edu/) and also in a very good book: The Science of Pocket Billiards by Jack H. Koehler.
 
grobbs said:
What exactly is throw? I have heard the term but never fully understood it. Is it the forward rolling motion of the cue ball that causes both OB and cue to have more of a forward direction of motion?

Wow there is a lot more to learn about billiards than I knew. I figured I had the basics down.
Click to expand...

Yes, collision induced throw will alter the path of the OB on any cut shot. Certain cut angles and speeds will produce more than others.

To illustrate this principle, set up two balls frozen to each other at the foot spot aimed directly to the corner pocket. Now place the cue ball so the shot is straight on (like near the side pocket). Hit the shot straight on at low to moderate speed and the OB will go straight into the middle of the pocket if it was lined up that way.

Now set it up the shot the same way only this time hit the first ball (at low to moderate speed) not straight on but cutting it 45-60 degrees or so on the left side. You will see the OB you are intending to pocket get thrown to the right and will likely hit the long rail rather than go in. If it does go in, it won't go in the center, but rather somewhere to the right of center pocket. Try it again only cut it from the other side and you will see the combo get thrown to the left.

This illustrates what happens when the cue ball contacts an object ball at a cut angle. The frozen combo just helps to show it because it eliminates not cutting the shot where you intended - you know the contact point is correct. Now, with frozen balls there is a large, obvious effect but the principle still applies to some extent on most cut shots depending on the cut angle and speed.

This is something you learned real early if you grew up on straight pool, looking for dead combos in the stack. ;)
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
Yes, collision induced throw will alter the path of the OB on any cut shot. Certain cut angles and speeds will produce more than others.

To illustrate this principle, set up two balls frozen to each other at the foot spot aimed directly to the corner pocket. Now place the cue ball so the shot is straight on (like near the side pocket). Hit the shot straight on at low to moderate speed and the OB will go straight into the middle of the pocket if it was lined up that way.

Now set it up the shot the same way only this time hit the first ball (at low to moderate speed) not straight on but cutting it 45-60 degrees or so on the left side. You will see the OB you are intending to pocket get thrown to the right and will likely hit the long rail rather than go in. If it does go in, it won't go in the center, but rather somewhere to the right of center pocket. Try it again only cut it from the other side and you will see the combo get thrown to the left.

This illustrates what happens when the cue ball contacts an object ball at a cut angle. The frozen combo just helps to show it because it eliminates not cutting the shot where you intended - you know the contact point is correct. Now, with frozen balls there is a large, obvious effect but the principle still applies to some extent on most cut shots depending on the cut angle and speed.

This is something you learned real early if you grew up on straight pool, looking for dead combos in the stack. ;)
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Thanks! Great description.
 
mohrt said:
From that point on the OB you need to hit to make the shot, pivot your cue on your bridge hand to apply english. ie. to add left english, move the back hand to the right. Your cue will no longer be on the shot line, but stroking down this pivoted line will still work because deflection cancels the squirt. You might need to adjust your bridge point forward or back a bit to find the perfect BHE bridge for your cue.
Click to expand...

Okay so I tried what you told me the other day (keeping my bridge steady and just adjusting my back hand). It did not work. It actually ended up cutting the ball even more than shooting with English the way I have been (adjusting my bridge to keep the line from the cue ball to object ball to pocket).

I realize it is extremely hard to attempt to explain such a delicate and precise thing without visual cues and without being able to actually see what I am doing wrong. Is there any videos either on YouTube or elsewhere you know of that would demonstrate this?
 
OP try this. Place the Object ball(OB) on the table close to a corner pocket where the first diamond on the long rail and the first diamond on the short rail come together on the table. make this a set variable in this experiment. Then take the CB and place it on the table for a cut shot. shoot the CB to the OB dead center. dont hit it too hard. note where the cb ends up after it hit the rail making sure that the ob went in the pocket. then do it again. hit the cb from the same spot and make the ob in the same pocket. if the cb ended up where it did the first time after it hit the rail then set it up again. now use high center. it can be a tip higher than center. use the same position for cb and ob and same amount of stroke power. note the angle where the cb hit the rail and its path and where it ends up. you can mark those areas with a piece of paper or sticker or a use those stickers that are round that you would use when your paper gets a hole in it from the three ring binder. then after you make those in with high center move around the cue ball in a clock wise position shooting high right and right of center then low right and then low and then low left and left and high left. note all these positions where the ball hits the rail and the path of the ball and where the cue ball hits the ob and the path of the ob. minor adjustments will need to be made in order to pocket the ball. think of the cb and the ob as gears or sprockets. when the cb has back spin and it hit the ob it makes the ob have top spin. top spin on the cb will make the ob have back spin. eventually that top or backspin on the ob will go away and it the ball will have forward or top spin or which ever direction spin depending on the angle. try that drill it might help.
 
grobbs said:
I realize it is extremely hard to attempt to explain such a delicate and precise thing without visual cues and without being able to actually see what I am doing wrong. Is there any videos either on YouTube or elsewhere you know of that would demonstrate this?
Click to expand...

Post #13 of this thread provides the link you seek. All of the effects of english are largely speed dependent. Invest in a low deflection shaft and stay away from BH english, it's not going to help you at this point.
 
grobbs said:
Hello, I just started playing pool more seriously and have a question.I have noticed that pretty much anytime I shoot a cut shot with any english on the cue ball that the object ball cuts more than if I shot the same shot without any spin. Regardless of inside or outside english. The opposite happens with forward spin. If I have a cut shot and put forward spin, the object ball will cut at a lesser angle than if I shot the same shot without spin. Is this normal? Of all the help and tutorial videos I have seen, not one has ever mentioned this effect. Am I shooting or doing something wrong or is this an effect that has to be compensated for? Again this happens every time I put any thing but forward spin on the cue ball. So I've been aiming to undercut my shots to be able to make them.

Thanks for any advice.
Click to expand...
Check out the videos, illustrations, articles, and other info on the aim compensation for squirt, swerve, and throw when using sidespin resource page. The info might be helpful.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
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