All around best american player??

Nothing against my favorite player Nick Varner, but Sigel has won over 100 legitimate tier one titles (where every top player plays). That's more than anyone by a long margin.

They include titles in 9-ball, 8-ball, 14.1 and One-Pocket. Yes, Mike Sigel has championships in one pocket. I'm sure someone can find a bank tournament he's won.

Mike was the dominant player in the 70's and 80's and still won tournaments as a part-timer in the early 90's

It was 1989.

Actually, Mike Sigel was the first to win over 100K in a year. Nick was the second. In the year that Sigel won over 100K in tournament winnings, the 100th ranked golfer also had won over 100K in golfing tournament winnings. Brutal and sick.



It's not outlandish. I think you just never saw Mike at his prime. Sigel quit pool because he no longer loved it. Mike and Nick were close friends and had three or so business ventures together. While Nick wanted to play pool and practice, Mike wanted to fish.

Fred

Mike may have won tournaments in One-pocket...but not world championships.

I know how good of friends they were Fred..lol...thanks for pointing that out.

Yes..Nick worked hard at his game and it paid off for him. He also spend a billion hours marketing himself and his business and has did it better than any male pro today.
 
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Thanks again, Jay.

I wrote a short comment in between the quote with red:


First of all, let me dispel one very big fallacy that has been going around a long time. The one about the "easy" pockets in the old days. There were MANY poolrooms back in the 60's, 70's and 80's that had one or more tables set up for the good players. Usually tight Gold Crowns with 4.5" pockets or less, plus deep cut slates. Too bad there aren't any photos of the 5 x 10 by the counter in the 7/11, where all the big games were. Ten foot table with maybe 4.25" pockets. It was triple tough! That table brought a lot of good players to their knees. If Jersey Red got you over there, you might as well hand him your money.

Most of the major tournaments back then had tightened up Gold Crowns as well, no more than 4.5" pockets. Not exactly buckets. For the Peter Vitalie Invitational on 1987, they squeezed those pockets down to nothing with such deep shelves a ball could hide behind the point. Literally! We did things like this to find out who the best players were. Funny thing, Sigel, Hall and Strickland kept winning them. I wonder why.

As far as my statement about Efren playing great when all the balls were on the end rail, I'll gladly explain. Don't think for a moment he couldn't Bank, because he can. Very well I might add. About even with Ronnie there. And Ronnie banked good. When all the balls are down table, Efren is the most dangerous player I ever saw. If he can bank one in and somehow play position behind one ball, it's all over. He will pick them off one at a time, staying behind the balls until he's done. I've seen him play position on five or six balls, one at a time, when they are all within a diamond of the end rail. NO ONE else can run out from a spot like that, not even Ronnie.

Yeah, this is a bit what I was expecting. I've studied Efren quite a bit and can imagine him running out from the end rail, especially if he's between the rail and the ball, as he truly is magical with that cb.
And naturally like I said, I also consider him great in banking, but thought that he's a notch below some other players who have been more focusing on that aspect.
One of the reasons for my conclusion has been, that his success in bank pool division hasn't been exactly as good as for example Millers, but especially bcos I heard Cliff Joyner once said when he was asked about the money match with Efren (the match in DCC 2006), that "I played wrong, I should've put the balls in the end rail as he's not that good in banking.."


And last, one other fallacy dispelled. It's true, Efren kicks more accurately than anyone ever, but not more accurately than Ronnie in One Pocket. In One Pocket Efren can kick to play safe or to make a ball. But nothing like the way Ronnie could kick. He would kick to win games, moving multiple balls toward his hole. If one went in, game over! You could leave him with the cue ball buried near his pocket, with balls near your hole. He would consistently kick three rails and duck behind one of your balls, sometimes completely locking you up. Now you were in the trap!

He could kick more accurately multiple rails than Efren or anyone else. Two rails into the side of the pack, knocking balls toward his hole was routine for him. One of his favorites was when you had a couple of balls near your pocket and he was on the other side of the pack. He would kick two rails, off the end rail and side rail, hit one of your balls and send it into the bottom of the pack. VOILA, several balls would go flying toward his pocket. Again, if one went in, game over! No one else has ever been able to execute this type shot like Ronnie did routinely.

Ronnie also kicked one rail to make a ball more accurately even then Efren. He was deadly kicking at a ball on your side of the table. If he didn't make it, it was near the jaws of the pocket and you were behind the stack. Good luck!

Markus, maybe this gives you some idea of why Ronnie was the best One Pocket player for so long, during an era full of great players. He will go down in history as one of the greats of the game, along with Rags, Clem, Taylor and Efren. That's a pretty select group. Even in that group, Ronnie might be number one. Old man Puckett, who saw Rags and Clem play, said Ronnie was better than either one of them. And no one ever beat Rags, as far as I know. Clem's only losses were to Rags, according to Joey Spaeth. They played more than once.


Interesting examples of Ronnie's kicking, would've loved to see him play as his style really sounds creative.

Hey, I checked 1-P HOF, but couldn't associate "Clem" with anyone. Who are you referring to? Also, unless it's somehow a hush hush, how did Rags die? Only at 42yrs of age..
:(
 
How easy would it be for SVB to become the greatest all around player? I think he could do it.
 
I think SVB is foolish to not play one pocket, straight pool, etc. He would easily be the best all around player in the US, with his talent and work ethic, and a favorite to win Master of the Table at DCC every year, just like Efren was and is.

Regarding Harold Worst, there is about a half hour of an audio recording floating around the net somewhere of Ronnie Allen's opinion of who was the best ever. Its a great recording to listen to. I don't know the link, but maybe someone does.
 
Thanks again, Jay.

I wrote a short comment in between the quote with red:





Interesting examples of Ronnie's kicking, would've loved to see him play as his style really sounds creative.

Hey, I checked 1-P HOF, but couldn't associate "Clem" with anyone. Who are you referring to? Also, unless it's somehow a hush hush, how did Rags die? Only at 42yrs of age..
:(

Clem Metz from Cincinnati. I'm not sure but I think Rags had a stroke or a heart attack. He died in 1960 at the peak of his game. Like Harold Worst who was only 37 when he died in 1967.

You're right, I don't see Clem in there. That's a glaring omission imo. When I was a kid everyone said that he and Rags were the two best. I knew Clem but he was not playing much anymore since he got released. Just hanging around Mergards in Cincy.
 
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I think SVB is foolish to not play one pocket, straight pool, etc. He would easily be the best all around player in the US, with his talent and work ethic, and a favorite to win Master of the Table at DCC every year, just like Efren was and is.

Regarding Harold Worst, there is about a half hour of an audio recording floating around the net somewhere of Ronnie Allen's opinion of who was the best ever. Its a great recording to listen to. I don't know the link, but maybe someone does.
I agree 100% about Shane playing those other games more. He would without a doubt be untouchable on any table, any game, if he applied himself to more than just 8,9, or 10-ball.
 
I would like to see their tournament record and will take 7 to 5 on the money that Nick has beat Sigel at least 50% of the time they played. Can anybody get this information and prove it?

Sigel most definitely leads Varner in head-to-head tournament matches, as he does just about everyone. Sigel wasn't the player of the decade for the 1980's for nothing.
 
Billiards Digest ranked the top 50 players of the century in 1999 and Mike Sigel was 5th, behind only Willie Hoppe, Willie Mosconi, Ralph Greenleaf, and Alfredo de Oro. Sigel is four years younger than Nick Varner but preceded Varner into the BCA Hall of Fame by three years (he was the youngest male player ever inducted into the HOF at that time at age 35). Nick Varner is my all-time favorite player, but he was not as good as Sigel, though I do rate them close for all-around, with a slight nod to Sigel.
 
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I think SVB is foolish to not play one pocket, straight pool, etc. He would easily be the best all around player in the US, with his talent and work ethic, and a favorite to win Master of the Table at DCC every year, just like Efren was and is.

Regarding Harold Worst, there is about a half hour of an audio recording floating around the net somewhere of Ronnie Allen's opinion of who was the best ever. Its a great recording to listen to. I don't know the link, but maybe someone does.



http://www.tropicanabowlingalley.com/ronnie.html

Great Ronnie Allen stories here. first one he talks about Worst.
 
I think SVB is foolish to not play one pocket, straight pool, etc. He would easily be the best all around player in the US, with his talent and work ethic, and a favorite to win Master of the Table at DCC every year, just like Efren was and is.

Regarding Harold Worst, there is about a half hour of an audio recording floating around the net somewhere of Ronnie Allen's opinion of who was the best ever. Its a great recording to listen to. I don't know the link, but maybe someone does.

I agree about SVB playing the other games. I think they would actually help his rotation game, even though he does not need much help. This kid is a phenominal talent, he just needs the seasoning to really get out of reach.
 
I'd say that person is a great straight pool player. However, I'd love to know of someone who could get up and play straight pool ten times a year and be able to run over 100 half of the time.

I remember when Archer played in the world straight pool tournament a few years ago and his high run over many matches was really low. I recall something like in the 30's. Now maybe he was having an off week, but that is really bad for someone of that caliber.

At the straight pool challenge at Derby, you had several tries over several days, but to my recollection nobody ran over 200. If I recall, a score of 150 was very good. If you ran over 100, you had a good chance of making the 2nd round.

I watched Thorstan Hohman take four tries at the challenge and he could not get into the 2nd rack. My point being that it is not always easy, even for the great players.

In 1989 I met Grady Mathews at a Hotel in Cleveland and recognized him and introduced myself and said I played pool and was a big fan of the game. He said how would you like to come down the street with me we are playing straight pool in a round robin format 3 blocks from here. I said sure. When we got there I couldn't believe all the top pro's that were in it. Rempe, Sigel, The Miz, Varner and also Archer which I knew him from his 9 ball accomplishments but was kind of surprised to see him playing all these champions in Straight Pool. Grady said it was his first straight pool event he knew of him entering. I watched Grady's match against Jimmy Fusco and even with a 1st inning run of 115 he lost his match 150 to 133. I then watched Johnny Archer's match and to my surprise he ran 150 and out and he continued shooting to break 200. I could not believe it nor could Grady. That was a great day though and Grady was really a cool guy!!
 
I notice that Jose Parica is playing next month in Vegas as being from the USA - is he a citizen?.
 
There is nothing you can ever say that will convince me that 14.1 is harder than rotation games. Speaking of rotation games, is 14.1 harder than rotation itself? I can't wait to hear what people have to say about that.

And you can throw out as many challenges as you want. I've already given you an answer and it's not going to change.

Everyone should give up trying to educate this guy - he's officially declared that he is not interested in facts, evidence or reasoned arguments. Just let him think he knows something about pool, with his fearsome 22 ball run and eyewitness accounts of 80-ball-runners who can't get out in 9 ball.:rolleyes:
 
Everyone should give up trying to educate this guy - he's officially declared that he is not interested in facts, evidence or reasoned arguments. Just let him think he knows something about pool, with his fearsome 22 ball run and eyewitness accounts of 80-ball-runners who can't get out in 9 ball.:rolleyes:

Oh, so now it's a FACT that 14.1 is harder than rotation games. That's pretty interesting. I'd love to see where that FACT is written. That or maybe you should find a dictionary and look up what the word fact means and what the word opinion means since you obviously think they are the same thing. And by the way, I'm not the only person that thinks 14.1 is both a practice game and easier than rotation games so why don't you call them out too.

And yes, my high run is 22. You can bring it up all you want, but just remember that it's not 22 because I've played 14.1 thousands of times and it's just to hard for me, it's because I'm not going to waste my time on something that isn't really a game. :eek:
 
I can do a back flip but I dont want to,save yourself some humiliation.or prove everybody wrong and run a hundred without saying I just dont want to,I dont have a dog in this fight but saying that you can and just dont want to and arguing with champions does not help your character.I really am not trying to ruffle feathers but it is just plain disrespectful or is that not important either.You are fighting the wrong cause
 
Oh, so now it's a FACT that 14.1 is harder than rotation games. That's pretty interesting. I'd love to see where that FACT is written. That or maybe you should find a dictionary and look up what the word fact means and what the word opinion means since you obviously think they are the same thing. And by the way, I'm not the only person that thinks 14.1 is both a practice game and easier than rotation games so why don't you call them out too.

And yes, my high run is 22. You can bring it up all you want, but just remember that it's not 22 because I've played 14.1 thousands of times and it's just to hard for me, it's because I'm not going to waste my time on something that isn't really a game. :eek:

Thanks for the negative rep, it's my very first! I'd return it if I didn't think you were too stupid to actually understand the discussion, and you've probably had your share already. I didn't say the game being more difficult was a fact, just that your admission that you could not POSSIBLY be swayed shows that you're not at all interested in them.

Oh, and I just remembered this one time with a guy I know, we were playing some 9-ball and had taken a load of acid. He ran 14 racks on me, but when we were playing straight pool the week after he couldn't string three balls together. To this day I don't know if it was just really good shit or if I pulled the whole story out of my ass.
 
I can do a back flip but I dont want to,save yourself some humiliation.or prove everybody wrong and run a hundred without saying I just dont want to,I dont have a dog in this fight but saying that you can and just dont want to and arguing with champions does not help your character.I really am not trying to ruffle feathers but it is just plain disrespectful or is that not important either.You are fighting the wrong cause

Where did I say that I could but don't want to? Did you read the thread before you posted that? If you're going to throw your opinion out there you should probably know what you're talking about first.
 
Thanks for the negative rep, it's my very first! I'd return it if I didn't think you were too stupid to actually understand the discussion, and you've probably had your share already. I didn't say the game being more difficult was a fact, just that your admission that you could not POSSIBLY be swayed shows that you're not at all interested in them.

Oh, and I just remembered this one time with a guy I know, we were playing some 9-ball and had taken a load of acid. He ran 14 racks on me, but when we were playing straight pool the week after he couldn't string three balls together. To this day I don't know if it was just really good shit or if I pulled the whole story out of my ass.

Actually I've gotten 1 negative rep and 7 positive for the things I've said in this thread. A few of those positive ones by the way are from people agreeing with the points I've made as to why rotation games are harder than 14.1. Geez, isn't that strange, other people agree with me. Maybe if people weren't so damn worried about siding with John Schmidt all the time they would actually realize that my points are just as valid as his.

Oh, and the 1 negative rep I got is from klink who hasn't even posted in this thread but didn't like the fact that I said people can kiss my ass if they don't like what I have to say. I think it should be a rule that to give rep, positive or negative, you have to have posted in the thread your giving the rep for.

Oh, and people can still kiss my ass if they don't like what I have to say. There are enough people that do like what I have to say to make up for all the haters.
 
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