Allowable Margin for Error -- Contact Point vs Fractional Aim Point

[SpiderWebComm]

not looking to derail your (conversation??? ) brian and spidey
but if you asked me how do I aim
I would say this
most of the time I just see if I hit the cue ball "there" it goes in the pocket
my visual is the line from the pocket to the cue ball
how I hit "there" changes
sometimes ( I know you hate analogies) I ask myself
"how thick a slice does mrs Giordano want?"
ie I have learned how to make the edge of the cue ball hit a spot
and cut that slice....
either overlap or
sometimes its contact point to contact point..
sometimes the angle lands on a pure fraction line which I "see" and aim at the fraction
(I use targets at the base of the ball )
sometimes its the overlap
I realize its not cte and pivot
knowing when to use an outside or inside pivot
but it works for me
my errors are more stroke related then aiming/alignment
jmho
your thoughts?

Post a video of what you're doing and explain how you're doing it. Then some thoughts can be given.

Those are my thoughts. Back to you. Your thoughts?

 

[Mkindsv]

How heated this whole aiming thing gets kinda cracks me up. I honestly DGAF how most people come to their way of shooting...it's personal for everybody, like politics, nobody sees everything exactly the way you do. The pivoting thing, blows my mind, I truly don't understand how starting with a line that doesn't make the ball makes any sense at all. Some do, but I truly don't see the benefit in it. Kicks? Banks? Safeties? What works for every shot? Experience shooting that shot or one similar always does the trick for me.

In my experience, there aren't really that many shots in pool...Straight in, cut to the left, cut to the right, bank, kick (am I missing any???)

Tell me if I am wrong here, but once I decide which one it is, I just line up where I think the ball will go in and concentrate on getting the ball there. There really is not much thought involved after I see the table layout...and truthfully unless there is a problem ball and I have to get a break out or play safe, a whole rack will take about a minute to a minute and a half.

Watch some speed pool...are these players taking time to go through a pre shot routine, line-up, pivot and all the rest in 6-7 seconds? are they truly aiming, or are they just seeing the relationship between the Cue ball and the remaining layout and pressing start on a program that is already loaded after they analyze the results of the break?

Now, I am not the best pool player in the world, or even the room I frequent, but I can get out on anyone and keep up with just about any player that comes through that isn't a complete monster (but have even pissed off a monster or two on occasion), I don't play pool for a living and won't pretend that I give it that kind of dedication, but for the life of me I cannot understand why people on this forum are so worried about aiming, it truly is one of the least difficult tasks in the game.

Best of luck to all of ya, and I hope ya'll get this aiming thing figured out so you can just get on a table and enjoy this beautiful game.

 

[BC21]

How heated this whole aiming thing gets kinda cracks me up. I honestly DGAF how most people come to their way of shooting...it's personal for everybody, like politics, nobody sees everything exactly the way you do. The pivoting thing, blows my mind, I truly don't understand how starting with a line that doesn't make the ball makes any sense at all. Some do, but I truly don't see the benefit in it. Kicks? Banks? Safeties? What works for every shot? Experience shooting that shot or one similar always does the trick for me.

In my experience, there aren't really that many shots in pool...Straight in, cut to the left, cut to the right, bank, kick (am I missing any???)

Tell me if I am wrong here, but once I decide which one it is, I just line up where I think the ball will go in and concentrate on getting the ball there. There really is not much thought involved after I see the table layout...and truthfully unless there is a problem ball and I have to get a break out or play safe, a whole rack will take about a minute to a minute and a half.

Watch some speed pool...are these players taking time to go through a pre shot routine, line-up, pivot and all the rest in 6-7 seconds? are they truly aiming, or are they just seeing the relationship between the Cue ball and the remaining layout and pressing start on a program that is already loaded after they analyze the results of the break?

Now, I am not the best pool player in the world, or even the room I frequent, but I can get out on anyone and keep up with just about any player that comes through that isn't a complete monster (but have even pissed off a monster or two on occasion), I don't play pool for a living and won't pretend that I give it that kind of dedication, but for the life of me I cannot understand why people on this forum are so worried about aiming, it truly is one of the least difficult tasks in the game.

Best of luck to all of ya, and I hope ya'll get this aiming thing figured out so you can just get on a table and enjoy this beautiful game.

I agree, especially the part in bold. After a player gathers enough experience, they just recognize where the cb needs to be, and they align their body and stroke to get that done. But when a lesser skilled player asks a highly skilled player how to do it, "how do you aim", the most common reply is simply, "I don't know, I just look at the shot and shoot it. Keep practicing and you'll get there too."

That's great advice. What this thread is supposed to be about is evaluating/comparing methods that most skilled players have used (practiced) in order to "get there", in order to reach a level where they just look at the shot, and automatically know how to shoot it based on their experience. Better quality experience leads to better quality play.

Traditional methods are effective (like ghostball and contact points and the 5 lines fractional method), but they do require a lot of trial and error, and because of this they are long roads.

When you were first learning to play, if someone would've stood by the table and placed their finger tip to show exactly where to aim for every shot, do you think you would've developed aiming skills quicker? The other options involve using your own inexperienced judgment and learning through trial and error. Eventually your judgment gets better and you start programming your brain to recognize certsin shots. After enough successful repetitions you final find yourself playing well, pocketing balls without even thinking about how you're doing it

I believe if a player could start off knowing exactly where to aim, not relying on inexperienced judgment, he or she could speed that learning/programming process up dramatically. That's what this thread is supposed to about.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

What this thread is supposed to be about is in the title. There is nothing indicating what a player is supposed to morph into after they get proficient with either. More spinning and twisting.

ALLOWABLE MARGIN FOR ERROR - CONTACT POINT VS. FRACTIONAL AIM POINT

FIRST POST:

I found this comparison interesting....

On a straight in shot the allowable margin for error when aiming at the exact ob contact point for a center pocket shot is relevant to the ob's margin of error going into the pocket. For example, an ob on the foot spot of a 7ft diamond barbox has a 4.5° window going cleanly into the pocket, a +/- 2.25° margin of error from center pocket.

When measured across the surface of the ob (where the contact point is located) this 4.5° window provides a 2.2mm arc. If the cb strikes the ob anywhere within this arc the ob will go into the pocket. The same 2.2mm arc applies to cut shots also, but as the cut gets progressively thinner this 2.2mm becomes skewed. The change in perspective, as viewed from the cb, makes the 2.2mm arc look smaller. Straight in it looks like 2.2mm, but from a 1/2 ball hit perspective the 2.2mm looks like 1.9mm, and from a thinner 1/4 ball hit perspective it's only 1.5mm. Eventually, as the cut angle approaches 90°, the 2.2mm arc will not even be visible from the cb's perspective.

So, when trying to reference the contact point, the margin for error shrinks as the cut angle increases.

Compare this to fractional aiming, where the width of the ob (2.25") is used to partition the cb into quarter, eighth, or sixteenth aiming point references. This 2.25" never changes, regardless of cut angle/shot perspective. It's a constant. By ignoring the physical surface of the ball (sphere) you can simply focus on the diameter of the ball as a plain circle. Doing this doubles your margin of error when it comes to aiming references.

Fractional aim points have 2 times the allowable margin for error when compared to contact points. A contact point arc of 2mm gives you room for error to be off by no more than 1mm left or right of perfect. The same shot using a fractional aim point allows for 4mm, meaning you can be off by as much 2mm left or right of the fractional aim point needed and still pocket the ball.

Has anyone seen any information like this in any book or online resource? Just curious.

Later it morphed but NOT because what this thread is "SUPPOSED" to be about. It became what it always becomes which is "you don't need any aiming system" The brain takes over. Just let it flow and you'll become ONE with the universe and a pro level player. See nothing, think of nothing. OOMMMMM, OOMMMM, OOMMMMM, OOMMMM

 

[BC21]

What this thread is supposed to be about is in the title. There is nothing indicating what a player is supposed to morph into after they get proficient with either. More spinning and twisting.
........

Later it morphed but NOT because what this thread is "SUPPOSED" to be about. It became what it always becomes which is "you don't need any aiming system" The brain takes over. Just let it flow and you'll become ONE with the universe and a pro level player. See nothing, think of nothing.

You truly are challenged. Seriously. I will try not to lose you with any analogies in this post.

What do you suppose my title and first post in this thread is about? Lol. It's about what I believe is the most efficient aiming method available to put players on a fast track to pocketing balls by reducing or eliminating guesswork and trial and error when it comes to aiming.
This is what I believe, and I was asking for other opinions or input.

The end result of ALL aiming methods or systems, regardless of whether or not you understand this, is the fact that after enough repetition the brain ends up recalling/recognizing cb-ob relationships, which means aiming becomes automatic. This is the fact that drives you crazy and causes you to lose your mind. Lol

Typically, in non-CTE threads, as I have said in another thread, a CTE user will always come crashing in to get a few words in for their method. Subtlety is not your strong point. This is not a CTE thread. You made a couple of good posts, though laced with some not so subtle CTE hints. Lol. You can move along anytime. Because you just don't get it, what this thread is about.

By illustrating the fact that a player has more room for error (a bigger target) when using fractional aiming, rather than using contact points or imaginary ghostballs, it isn't difficult to understand why or how that information could be used to benefit a lot of aspiring players.

Better players opt for high percentage shots, from saftey play to pocketing balls. It's a winning approach to playing the game. If we play this way, shooting shots that we know or feel are securely within our normal abilities, we play more consistently and win more games. The same habits should apply to the learning process. Players that struggle with pocketing balls consistently should use and practice aiming methods that provide the most room for error and require the least amount of experienced judgement. This allows for more balls hitting the pocket, which programs the brain quicker by reducing unnecessary misses due to poor estimations/judgment of contact points, ghostballs, or, yes I'm saying it...pivots.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

What do you suppose my title and first post in this thread is about? Lol. It's about what I believe is the most efficient aiming method available to put players on a fast track to pocketing balls by reducing or eliminating guesswork and trial and error when it comes to aiming.
This is what I believe, and I was asking for other opinions or input.

So in other words you were setting the thread up to tout and ballyhoo Poolology, fractional aiming without using the name Poolology.

The end result of ALL aiming methods or systems, regardless of whether or not you understand this, is the fact that after enough repetition the brain ends up recalling/recognizing cb-ob relationships, which means aiming becomes automatic.

The brain does recall and recognize cb-ob relationships but NOTHING, let me repeat, NOTHING in pool IS AUTOMATIC!

Everyone who has played pool long enough has either seen or had a ball 2" from the pocket with ball in hand with the CB thinking it was automatic and MISS! Pro players have done it and we've all seen it happen to them!

By illustrating the fact that a player has more room for error (a bigger target) when using fractional aiming, rather than using contact points or imaginary ghostballs, it isn't difficult to understand why or how that information could be used to benefit a lot of aspiring players.

That's your claim to it. PJ was on the verge of debunking your entire theory since he uses contact points but he backed off for whatever reason. And I guarantee it wasn't because he thought you were right.

I repeat: NOTHING IN POOL IS AUTOMATIC!

Especially a FRACTIONAL AIMING SYSTEM where anything beyond a 1/2 ball aim and hit has to be guessed at because there's only vacant space outside of the OB to be aiming the center of the CB. What the hell does the brain have to pull on and recall then?

ONE MORE TIME: NOTHING IN POOL IS AUTOMATIC!

Start a new thread: NON-AIMING FOR NON-AIMERS.

I promise to stay out.

 

[BC21]

The fact that a player has more room for error (a bigger target) when using fractional aiming, rather than using contact points or imaginary ghostballs, it isn't difficult to understand why or how that information could be used to benefit a lot of aspiring players.

That's your claim to it. PJ was on the verge of debunking your entire theory since he uses contact points but he backed off for whatever reason. And I guarantee it wasn't because he thought you were right.

Lol. He knows, but you don't. There is nothing to "debunk". Math, distance, probabilities/percentages....these things are indisputable. And the theory that repeating known actions and getting positive results is much more effective fir learning than repeating inconsistent actions and getting inconsistent results....well, that has proven in every aspect of life from sports to academics. So there is nothing to debunk. However, an intelligent conversation about the merits of different aiming systems when it comes to this theory is a welcome and open debate. I am not so stubborn to believe that my ideas are the only or the best ideas out there. So I welcome any comments, input, insight, or advice from PJ or anyone else that actually understands what I'm talking about it.

I'm finished with you for a while. As usual, it gets old.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The fact that a player has more room for error (a bigger target) when using fractional aiming, rather than using contact points or imaginary ghostballs, it isn't difficult to understand why or how that information could be used to benefit a lot of aspiring players.

Beginners or aspiring players could care less or understand what you're trying to explain. All they want to do is make more balls any way they can.

For true beginners the arrow might be the better way to go. Then contact point would be next, or first. Depends on what they see and understand better.

Lol. He knows, but you don't. There is nothing to "debunk". Math, distance, probabilities/percentages....these things are indisputable. And the theory that repeating known actions and getting positive results is much more effective fir learning than repeating inconsistent actions and getting inconsistent results....well, that has proven in every aspect of life from sports to academics. So there is nothing to debunk. However, an intelligent conversation about the merits of different aiming systems when it comes to this theory is a welcome and open debate. I am not so stubborn to believe that my ideas are the only or the best ideas out there. So I welcome any comments, input, insight, or advice from PJ or anyone else that actually understands what I'm talking about it.

No you don't. Total BS once again. It's your all knowing way or novel length responses bringing in analogies and everything else. I'm still waiting for the kitchen sink to be included and I'm sure it will be one day.

I'm finished with you for a while. As usual, it gets old.

You aren't finished because you can't help yourself. You have 1 1/2 X chromosomes
and 1/2 Y chromosome. Definitely not 1 full "X" and 1 "Y".

We know which one has to have the last word and keep droning on, and on, and on.

 

[Low500]

You aren't finished because you can't help yourself. You have 1 1/2 X chromosomes
and 1/2 Y chromosome. Definitely not 1 full "X" and 1 "Y".
We know which one has to have the last word and keep droning on, and on, and on.

Hello Spider.
I have been watching these postings for months from a spectator's view(since I have been in "Banned Jail") and I've come to the conclusion that trying to get through to these people is a total waste of time and mental energy. I am on parole now and just wanted to have a few things to say to you, since you deal in reason, common sense, and integrity.
Leave these people to their own misery,especially this poolology "expert" who must have the last word on ANYTHING....pool, math, music, human nature, how the brain works, you name it.
If that guy's pool skills matched his ego, he wouldn't have jumped up there and allowed Aramis to snatch his money like taking candy from a baby. I watched the match and the "expert' was scared to death.
I am placing all of the members of this "know-it-all posse" on total ignore. I suggest you do the same so you don't end up in "Banned Jail" like I did.
Stan's work marches on and nothing 'they' say can stop it. He is doing great and the Truth Series is sitting red hot on ready. Gonna' be great too!
Stay loose,
Regards from Lowenstein.

 

[BC21]

Hello Spider.
I have been watching these postings for months from a spectator's view(since I have been in "Banned Jail") and I've come to the conclusion that trying to get through to these people is a total waste of time and mental energy. I am on parole now and just wanted to have a few things to say to you, since you deal in reason, common sense, and integrity.
Leave these people to their own misery,especially this poolology "expert" who must have the last word on ANYTHING....pool, math, music, human nature, how the brain works, you name it.
If that guy's pool skills matched his ego, he wouldn't have jumped up there and allowed Aramis to snatch his money like taking candy from a baby. I watched the match and the "expert' was scared to death.
I am placing all of the members of this "know-it-all posse" on total ignore. I suggest you do the same so you don't end up in "Banned Jail" like I did.
Stan's work marches on and nothing 'they' say can stop it. He is doing great and the Truth Series is sitting red hot on ready. Gonna' be great too!
Stay loose,
Regards from Lowenstein.

Funny. Aranas is a great dude, and ranked among the 10 best players in the world. It was simple race to 5 for $50, a fun game for the hell of it. No pressure. No worries. Just a good a time. What exactly made you think I was "scared to death"? Lol. I was the one playing, and I can tell you my hands were as steady as they always are. Like I said, it was $50. Lol

You aren't a player, so your words aren't worth much here.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hello Spider.
I have been watching these postings for months from a spectator's view(since I have been in "Banned Jail") and I've come to the conclusion that trying to get through to these people is a total waste of time and mental energy. I am on parole now and just wanted to have a few things to say to you, since you deal in reason, common sense, and integrity.
Leave these people to their own misery,especially this poolology "expert" who must have the last word on ANYTHING....pool, math, music, human nature, how the brain works, you name it.
If that guy's pool skills matched his ego, he wouldn't have jumped up there and allowed Aramis to snatch his money like taking candy from a baby. I watched the match and the "expert' was scared to death.
I am placing all of the members of this "know-it-all posse" on total ignore. I suggest you do the same so you don't end up in "Banned Jail" like I did.
Stan's work marches on and nothing 'they' say can stop it. He is doing great and the Truth Series is sitting red hot on ready. Gonna' be great too!
Stay loose,
Regards from Lowenstein.

Good to see you back in the saddle again. Your words are wise and the advice should be followed. But you know how it is. Some things are so far off the charts along with those saying it that it can't be left alone.

 

[Low500]

Good to see you back in the saddle again. Your words are wise and the advice should be followed. But you know how it is. Some things are so far off the charts along with those saying it that it can't be left alone.

I understand your position on that guy. You gotta' remember though, losers like that can never win or change....their egos are too big.
I was standing 10 feet from "BC" (that's what they call him in that pool room) and he was like a child as Aramis barbecued him out of his money.
Then he goes and stands with one of his league buddies and does the usual "bad beat" chat about (you guessed it)….I should have, If I had, etc. etc.
You'd think an expert who creates a mortal lock system for aiming in the game of pool and even has the gall to publish a book about it could use that system and win, when faced with opportunity. He even dogged it WITH THE BRIDGE and the ball was a foot from the hole. Proving that the system is marginal at best.
GIVE IT UP, Spider, you're wasting time and there are tattletales here who run to the bossman at the drop of a hat to "get ya" and teach ya a lesson so to speak.
We have a lot of good days and years ahead with this new stuff Stan has ready to release. I will, naturally, be stoking the efforts and publishing it here for those who really want to SEE and learn how this game can be played. (By the way, Aranis is coming into his shots from an angle too...just like all the main hitters. But they're not telling any chumps about it)
Take care in here and watch your back....spies are everywhere. And they will stop at nothing.
Regards from
Lowenstein

 

[BC21]

I understand your position on that guy. You gotta' remember though, losers like that can never win or change....their egos are too big.
I was standing 10 feet from "BC" (that's what they call him in that pool room) and he was like a child as Aramis barbecued him out of his money.
Then he goes and stands with one of his league buddies and does the usual "bad beat" chat about (you guessed it)….I should have, If I had, etc. etc.
You'd think an expert who creates a mortal lock system for aiming in the game of pool and even has the gall to publish a book about it could use that system and win, when faced with opportunity. He even dogged it WITH THE BRIDGE and the ball was a foot from the hole. Proving that the system is marginal at best.
GIVE IT UP, Spider, you're wasting time and there are tattletales here who run to the bossman at the drop of a hat to "get ya" and teach ya a lesson so to speak.
We have a lot of good days and years ahead with this new stuff Stan has ready to release. I will, naturally, be stoking the efforts and publishing it here for those who really want to SEE and learn how this game can be played. (By the way, Aranis is coming into his shots from an angle too...just like all the main hitters. But they're not telling any chumps about it)
Take care in here and watch your back....spies are everywhere. And they will stop at nothing.
Regards from
Lowenstein

I wish I had known you were there. You could've used your money instead of your mouth to prove how pathetic you think I play. Lol. But of course you didn't step up. Maybe you're smarter than I thought. Then again, I really doubt you were there. You tell a lot of lies.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Who's Aranis ?

 

[Low500]

Good to see you back in the saddle again. Your words are wise and the advice should be followed. But you know how it is. Some things are so far off the charts along with those saying it that it can't be left alone.

One more little tidbit, SpiderMan in regards to the instructor wannabes.
I like to mention the old saying...."A fool and his money are soon parted".:wink:
I've been around pool rooms long enough (and so have you) to know how that applies to the so-called "expert" pool players.
Especially those who are not even at shortstop level.
Cheers:thumbup:
Regards, P.L.

 

[BC21]

Who's Aranis ?

James Aranas, aka...Dodong Diamond, "DD"

Here is my little challenge match with him...I start at 8 min into the video. I make 3 mistakes and lose 5-1. I miss a safety where I tried to float the 1 ball behind or tied up with the 3. Another game I miss a 2ball bridge shot using low left, slightly overcut the ball. Another rack I miss the 1 ball by 3 or 4 inches! No excuse. I just stepped up and shot it quickly. I was also playing BCA 8ball on the adjacent table and it was my break over there. I missed that 1 ball then went to the other table and broke and ran out. Of course Aranas ran the that 9ball rack while I was running the 8ball rack on the other table. That dude hits em quite sporty. It was fun, an inevitable loss, but fun to watch up close.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1429673003881242&id=100005156683420

 

[bbb]

hi Lowenstein
welcome back
we dont always agree but at least you arent in cyber siberia

 

[JoeyInCali]

James Aranas, aka...Dodong Diamond, "DD"

Here is my little challenge match with him...I start at 8 min into the video. I make 3 mistakes and lose 5-1. I miss a safety where I tried to float the 1 ball behind or tied up with the 3. Another game I miss a 2ball bridge shot using low left, slightly overcut the ball. Another rack I miss the 1 ball by 3 or 4 inches! No excuse. I just stepped up and shot it quickly. I was also playing BCA 8ball on the adjacent table and it was my break over there. I missed that 1 ball then went to the other table and broke and ran out. Of course Aranas ran the that 9ball rack while I was running the 8ball rack on the other table. That dude hits em quite sporty. It was fun, an inevitable loss, but fun to watch up close.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1429673003881242&id=100005156683420

I know who Dodong is.
Went to see his money match against Pulpol in Davao City in Feb 2018.
I was with Dodong's early mentor, Art. Art is a matchmaker down there and used to run tournaments. And Art is also a very capable player and instructor.
Dodong lost in a hill-hill match.
Before Low starts claiming Dodong does invisible pivot and all that magical stop, he should quit already. Please, he just sees the shooting line and shoots to it .
Roy of Roy's Basement went live when Dodong was trying his new shaft. Roy set up long cut shots and Dodong just shot them over and over again from he was setup . He missed a lot of shots because he was adjusting to the new LD shaft.
Peeps shouldn't be trying to figure out how Dodong aims.
He's one of the few Filipino players who actually have textbook stroke and stance. His delivery is so smooth. Lets the cue slide often.
Low must really have no clue how good someone like DD plays.
If he wants the 7-out and the breaks on 10-ball against DD, he should contact Roy.

 

[bbb]

brian
thanks for the link
you play pretty sporty
even tho you scratched
the bank on the 2 was a nice shot

 

[BC21]

brian
thanks for the link
you play pretty sporty
even tho you scratched
the bank on the 2 was a nice shot

Thanks, Larry. I'll have to watch it again because I don't remember that bank shot. The two missed shots stuck with me though, easy to remember those because I should'nt have missed them. I also remember, from when I watched that video, that I need to lose some weight! People say the camera adds 10lbs, but how did it just happen to add it all to my beltline? Lol

And I am working on slowing down my final backswing. Sometimes I do, other times I rush. It's already more consistent. It really pays to analyze your game on video.